Never buying an amp again?

[squank]

It def feels like modelers and multi fx before were like 85-90% there compared to a real amp and now it's closer to 95-97%. I'd love to try a helix into a clean tube amp because I think in a band mix it would be just fine but I've gone down that road several times before and always gone back to amps and pedals.

What I will say is all I'm doing right now is playing at home so that's all I need. If I was to get into a band I would need something like a Marshall DSL or a dual rectifier to be able to hang with the drummer. I'm more talking about coming through the PA and less about jamming in a band setting.

There are three kinds of guitarists in these discussions:

1) the ones who have made the effort to find their tones via modern (I mean stuff made in the past few years) digital gear or a pedalboard and tiny SS amp;

2) the ones who haven't really made the effort, maybe tried a POD or an 11Rack or the first Axe-FX that had horrible presets and gave up; and

3) those die-hard tube amp lovers who won't consider ditching their amps, so they don't even try to get their tones from alternative gear, and they shit talk it without knowing it.

Everyone is free to choose their gear, of course. But it's simply not accurate to claim that modern digital gear, or a pedalboard with boutique pedals and a micro SS power amp won't serve your tonal needs. It will. You just haven't made the effort to get it to give up the goods (there IS a learning curve), or you need some help in tweaking the gear.

Nobody is trying to force anybody to change what they play. But I challenge these misleading claims of telling people that gear other than tube amps is inferior, tonally, to what you have. 99.99% of the time, it will get you there. Some people don't want to hear that, but it's true.

If you love tube amps, by all means, stick with them. But their days are numbered.

I'm not saying this because I bought my first Axe-FX 10 years ago, because back then, its tone was only good enough for a club gig, but not good enough for me playing at home. Now that's changed. Kemper hits it out of the park. The new tiny SS amps like the ISP Ultra Lite deliver 100% of your awesome analog pedal tones to your cab. That's reality now.

These sad, tired claims about players that use modelers getting lost in the mix just because they are using modelers is an old Line 6 reality. Today, if your tone gets lost in the mix with modern digital gear, that's because you haven't learned how to dial it in. Some people don't know how to dial in a tube amp in a band setting, either, and their tone gets lost in the mix. There's operator error involved in some of this.

And that's your opinion and you're allowed to have one. On more than one account I've heard modelers get thin and lack depth. Not low end, but depth. A modeler will always be exactly that - a modeler. They're limited by the speed of the FPGAs currently around which can process sound through the measured frequency response of whatever it's modeling transferred to the time domain.

I've tried running them and side by side and there's absolutely no contest in the room which sounds more full and punches you in the chest. Modelers have always had a bad wrap due to needing tweaking to get to sound right. These are all things I have found when trying to run them against what I own. People also end up chasing the next best update instead of playing guitar. Never had that problem with my tube stuff or my analog effects. I enjoy spending more time playing than tweaking - all valid reasons for tube stuff to still stick around.

Modelers are great but they're always going to be competing against tubes. If you want to argue otherwise, go tell Cliff he needs to release a tube preamp version over on the axe-forums and report back your account status.

You are missing my point.

Of course some people using digital have thin tones that lack depth. Some people with tube amps have the same crappy tone. I'm sure you've heard them. It's user error.

You say you've tried them side by side and the tube amps are always better. Have you tried all digital gear available? If not, then you are painting with an inaccurately broad brush. I'm sure what you meant is that you have tried SOME modelers, and you didn't like the tones you got out of them. I'd argue there is some user error involved in dialing the digital in. Don't want to take the time to learn it? That's cool. Nobody has to. The problem I pointed out is exactly what you are doing here - you are declaring everything but tube amps to be inferior, which is untrue.

Instead, state it more accurately. The fact is you either haven't figured out how to get non-tube amps to sound like you want them to. Or, you don't want to take the time to do so. Both of these are completely legitimate. What I find unacceptable is people who make broad statements like "modelers will never sound as big or full as tube amps" or something similar. It's misleading to those who might want to try something else. Just because you can't get it to perform like you want doesn't mean others can't.

I sold my Axe-FX in 2011. I like my Kemper, but I don't use modelers primarily. I own a 100w tube head, but it stays home. I play mostly with a pedalboard and a SS micro amp into a guitar cab. It sounds amazing. For live use, with my Wampler, Amptweaker, and Engl dirt pedals, it sounds as good as any tube amp. That's a fact.

 

[squank]

Yeah, I'll bite, too. I've heard people foretelling the imminent demise of tube amps for 30+ years.

30 years ago, tube amps had no real competition for tone. Few people took those claims seriously.
20 years ago, tube amps had no real competition for tone. Few people took those claims seriously.
10 years ago, tube amps were just starting to get some serious competition. The Axe-FX showed up, but it wasn't quite there. Most people turned their nose up at it. It didn't help that some of the early adopters of the Axe-FX were insufferable on forums. They were fighting against a wall of prejudice, to be sure, but their vitriol didn't help spread the gospel of the Axe-FX. As far as tones go, the real difference was that, when playing this device, an experienced user could tell it was on its way to really competing with tube amps. It took a few years of improvements before it was making a serious challenge, but it was the first real bite out of the undisputed rule of the tube amp.
5 years ago, the Kemper hit the scene, and this was, in my opinion, the first serious challenge to tube amp supremacy.

Still seem lively to me, and I can promise that my tube amps will outlive me. After that, I doubt I'll know or even care.

I don't think any part of our industry is lively. Sadly, we are part of a declining hobby.

I'll also add that it doesn't matter what someone's using, if they're not cutting through in the mix, either they or the soundman doesn't know how to dial in their gear. Getting something to sound good in your personal practice space isn't the same as getting it to sound good with a band, in a mix. Doesn't matter if it's a modeler or a Herbert (and if anybody has difficulty getting a Herbert to cut, I'll be more than happy to give them lessons).

EXACTLY.

I think there's a fourth type of guitarist here... one who has tried both and found which one works for them, but is open-minded enough to realize that what works for one may not work for another and respects others' choices, even if they're different choices than the ones they themselves have made.

Yep. That's me. I have no issue with anyone playing any gear they want. We should all be free to do so. My issue is people spreading false information simply because they couldn't get the non-tube amp gear to sound the way they wanted. This misinformation inappropriately affects other guitarists choices.

Not saying that anyone here is being disrespectful, just that it takes all kinds. Thank God we don't all play the same guitars and amps and effects and whatever. How boring would that be? Thank God for the pioneers of tone, like Ventura pointed out, players like Les Paul for instance. We all need people to push the envelope. And thank God for players who've been playing the same rig for years. I think we need that, too... can you imagine EVH or Angus Young playing through The Edge's rig?? I think I can, but I'm not really sure I want to.

One last thing... isn't it amazing that we have all the great choices in gear that we do these days? It's an awesome time to be a guitarist, although my wallet might disagree occasionally... LOL!

Agreed!

 

[CrazyNutz]

Ehh, I've seen all this stuff come and go over the years, the next best thing will obsolete the previous model.

A good tube amp is timeless.

Also I know a few bands that use these live, and their tone is boring, and very underwhelming. That's the best way I can describe it.

 

[blackba]

As long as I can continue to use an amp live, I will continue to do so. My Mesa TA-15 is my main gigging amp, can't get much lighter and easy to carry than that.

If I have to go direct, I plan to go with a tube preamp from Effectrode or Kingsley into a Cab/power amp sim. The problem I have with the digital modelers if having time to dial them them and being able to adjust on the fly.

What kind of music do you play?

Live, its P&W

At home its classic rock, blues, alternative, and old school metal.

 

[Badronald]

100 watt tube amps are a thing of the past?

Wrong.

 

[glpg80]

You are missing my point.

What, that for me to say modelers overall have nothing against a decent tube amplifier, that I have to first play all modelers? Not play guitar, but rather learn how to get tweak their endless menus first?

I can turn a tube amplifier on and within a minute know damn well whether it's going to do what I need it to do, be in the ballpark, or not cut it at all. Tube changes change characteristics but even then it's only a light variation. The voicing is caked into the design and they are simplistic in what they offer which makes them way simpler to narrow down compared to modelers.

Of course some people using digital have thin tones that lack depth. Some people with tube amps have the same crappy tone. I'm sure you've heard them. It's user error.

I've heard a herbert live that sounded awful. I've heard and played countless more modelers that sound just as bad if not worse. I could also take said Herbert and in less than a minute, make it sound great. You can only blame so much on user error before it becomes apparent that no matter what the user does, it's not going to do what the user wants. That goes for tube gear and modelers alike.

 

[ChurchHill]

30 years ago, tube amps had no real competition for tone. Few people took those claims seriously.
20 years ago, tube amps had no real competition for tone. Few people took those claims seriously.
10 years ago, tube amps were just starting to get some serious competition. The Axe-FX showed up, but it wasn't quite there. Most people turned their nose up at it. It didn't help that some of the early adopters of the Axe-FX were insufferable on forums. They were fighting against a wall of prejudice, to be sure, but their vitriol didn't help spread the gospel of the Axe-FX. As far as tones go, the real difference was that, when playing this device, an experienced user could tell it was on its way to really competing with tube amps. It took a few years of improvements before it was making a serious challenge, but it was the first real bite out of the undisputed rule of the tube amp.
5 years ago, the Kemper hit the scene, and this was, in my opinion, the first serious challenge to tube amp supremacy.

Actually, I was thinking about 30 years ago, right around the time the last US tube manufacturer closed, the argument that tubes were going away was based more on the lack of quality tubes. Fortunately, that ended up not being true, and I have to give at least some credit to Mike Matthews and Sovtek, and some to the fall of the Iron Curtain.

I'd also add that I think there were some great SS amps long before modelers came along. I'm thinking about Randall and Roland's JC120, among others.

Still not sure that I agree that there is competition between modelers and tube amps. I look at both as just different paint brushes, they both have their place, their strengths, and their weaknesses. Maybe if I could only have one or the other, but it would still just be a personal competition for what works best for me.

I do agree that modelers in general have gotten much better in the last 10 years or so. The POD, when it first came out was miles ahead of the SS amps that claimed to be tube-like (mostly MOSFET designs) or the hybrid amps with either a SS pre and tube power, or a tube pre and SS power. They (1st gen PODs) may not be much in comparison with what's available today, but it was an exponential change. The original AxeFX was like that, too, in that it was a major improvement over its contemporaries. The Kemper was another game changer.

I just think it's really cool that we have all this available to us. Instead of buying a Neve 8078 and several racks full of Pultecs, LA2As, and 1176s, there are digital emulations that are almost indistiguishable from the originals. Same thing is true about stacks full of vintage Marshalls, Fenders, Voxes, Bogners, Friedmans, Diezels, Soldanos, et al. Just the fact that we have the choice is great!

I agree, sadly, that we guitarists are a dimishing breed. I still look at a guitar with the same awe I felt as a 13-year-old peering in the window of the local music shop. I still feel the same excitement when I turn my amp on and plug my guitar in, right before the first note, better than going over the first hill on any rollercoaster I've ever been on. What can we do to inspire others to feel these same things? I don't have any good answers, but I'll be preaching the gospel of guitars until my last breath.

 

[BrentSSL]

Lol all I was getting at is there are a large variety of ways to get tone out there do you really need an amp for playing at home?

 

[ChurchHill]

Sorry mate! Didn't mean to get too carried away and off-topic. Having all the options is a great thing!!

 

[BrentSSL]

Oh for sure it's funny I might eat my words. I already caught myself amp shopping out of habit lol.

 

[ChurchHill]

LOL! Yeah... I can definitely relate to that!

 

[D-Rock]

Computers aren't my bag, never have been.
Guitars and amps are my bag, so why would I want to plug into what is essentially a computer instead of a physical amplifier head?

 

[anomaly]

I'm content with my Mesa Mark IV, so I'll probably never buy another amp again. It does everything I need and sounds fantastic.