New hi gain tube amp head (Egnater, Laney...)

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On a forum called Laney Posse, one guy created a topic with ironheart 60W disassembly, and it appears both 120W and 60W share the same PCB and output transformer (don't know about power supply transformer). Don't know which transformer have the post influence on the depth and transients.
So maybe I'll go for a 120W

inside a 60W : http://www.laney-posse.co.uk/theposse/v ... f=1&t=7011

inside a 120W : https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/L ... Amp_Review

It seems the power supply transformer is bigger in the 120W, but the output transformers seem the same
 
Ola's vid of the Ironheart made it sound great...and the output transformer CAN NOT be the same...the 60 watt version is for 2 output tubes and the 120 watt would be for 4 tubes...the impedence wouldn't be right between the two...
 
If not a used Laney, how about something from Baron? Here are clips of the British-flavored one and the British-modern (with more gain):


 
Baron BM60 amps sounds great, unfortunately, ordering in the USA while living in Europe is quite expensive. With the taxes, the shipping costs... I'm sure it will cost more than a Diezel D-Moll.
 
Peaveys are great bang for money on used market (and so are Laneys). I liked 3120 more than 5150. JSX could be nice option too.

If you like mark-ish character more than recto, try Dual Caliber.

Or Randall RM100 - with modded modules you could tailor the sound to your needs.
 
ArlingtonBeech":174zeeb1 said:
On a forum called Laney Posse, one guy created a topic with ironheart 60W disassembly, and it appears both 120W and 60W share the same PCB and output transformer (don't know about power supply transformer). Don't know which transformer have the post influence on the depth and transients.
So maybe I'll go for a 120W

inside a 60W : http://www.laney-posse.co.uk/theposse/v ... f=1&t=7011

inside a 120W : https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/L ... Amp_Review

It seems the power supply transformer is bigger in the 120W, but the output transformers seem the same
Click to expand...

To be honest, the output transformer (the one to the right, EI type, not the toroidal cake-like power on the left) doesn't seem the same. Bells are different, so is height, it's taller than the tubes on the 120 and the same height on the 60. It wouldn't make sense also.

Output transformers in general are a tone shaping tool and affect feel also in very loud situations, the point which do this is more or less predetermined by the circuit, the design of the transformer, materials used etc.

All will saturate. It's then that they won't be able to ...transform electricity to magnetic field to electricity again. Then, whatever wattage puts out it puts out. Then, the sound will also be middier, it will create a bandpass effect on bass and treble, like a compressor of sorts. If you back off on your picking power (reduce the signal) then the sound will jump back up "full range" until you push again (imagine playing clean all the time, not a hot distorted compressed signal). This is crudely describing the phenomenon...


Many makers choose small output transformers. Anybody notice what happens with engl, mesa and other makers? They are tiny vs other makers who need something else for their signature sound (diezel e.g.) and which in turn they are smaller than most hi fi power amps anyway...


http://music-electronics-forum.com/t16762-2/

This one explains it quite a bit. It's weird to see anybody proposing a smaller output transformer to sweeten an amps sound in lower volumes but it is logical. Weber does this on his kits also (high headroom transfrormer option vs lower headroom-sweeter overdrive option).


Anyway, bigger will be better if you want punch etc but between the two ironhearts I'd take the 120 as they seem to be preamp-y in general, give them headroom to let the power amp breathe...

I wouldn't be surprised if they are a cross splawn-engl design with a plate fed tonestack, their mids seem almost TOO thick to the point that the amp doesn't really seem vibrant in its sound...who knows...anybody have the ironheart block diagram for the preamp?
 
The fact is that I'm not able to test the 60W nor the 120W since I can't find any in stores for the moment.
I'm sure the 120W sounds better (punchier, deeper...) with the master on 5 than, saying the 60W with the master on 8 to have the same volume.
But I'm not sure, for a lower volume, that the 120W would necessarly sound better with the master on 3 than the 60W with the master on 5.
In the venues I play, most of the times it's impossible to play with a 100W and a master above 3.
60W and 120W are only 3dB different, however a 3dB makes an audible difference!
Don't know how much the amp rely on the power amp tubes to achieve the best tone.
 
ArlingtonBeech":3f4z3qv6 said:
Hi,
I need help to buy an new tube amp head. Maybe Egnater Vengeance, Laney Ironheart 60W or 120W, or other, preferably under 1000$
I'm playing rock metal (alter bridge...) and I'm looking for a tube amp (50-120W).
Two different amps I really like are Diezel D-Moll and Soldano SLO100, but they are too expansive for my level and my usage (i'm mainly a singer and play only some rhythm parts live).
I'm really curious about Egnater Vengeance but I live in France and they are very rare here so it's impossible to find one to test.

I'd also like to know your opinion about those sub-1000€ amps vs more expensive ones. Here in Europe, Mesa amps aren't a bargain, but for instance a Diezel D-Moll costs 2000€. I wonder if, for playing only rhythm parts, I should save a little more and buy the D-Moll or if it's casting pearls before swine?
Thank you
Click to expand...

I have a Vengeance head going into a 2x12 with V30's.
GREAT amp. It's very underrated and overly accused of bad quality control.
It's true that Egnater has had some quality control issues especially with transformers, namely in his Tourmaster amp.
The outrage and upsetness was deserved as it should have been handled faster and better than it was.
However, I haven't experienced a single problem with my Vengeance head, and haven't read other's having quality issues with their Ven's. The Ven doesn't appear to have some of the issues that other Egnater amps have.

Tone wise it's a VERY versatile amp, more so than many other high gain amps.
It has killer high gain and tones and lots of tonal tweaks.
AND, it has an excellent clean channel that sounds fantastic. Egnater does clean very well.
It's not a Fender like clean tone, it has it's own character smooth, chimey, and lush mids.
The clean channel also dual gain stages for some cool light crunch tones, and it LOVES pedals.
I run my Bogner Ecstasy Red and Wampler Triple Wreck into the clean channel and the gain and tone is fantastic.
Compare that to the Ven's own high gain channel I then have 3 great sounding high gain options.

The Peavey 6505+ is also a fantastic high gain amp. I would say it has a "spongier" feel compared to the Ven.
But the 6505+ doesn't have a good clean channel. Yes, it's there and it's usable, but it doesn't sound that good.
EVH 5150 is a monster gain amp and great feel, but the high gain can get away from you and can sound funny.
Still a great amp though in your price range.

There is on interesting thing with the Ven that is not talked about in the owners manual.
In the back, behind the metal cover and right behind the transformer on the right side, there is a small toggle switch.
Factory default is set in the "up" mode. But that mode actually uses a solid state circuit for it's high gain/distortion.
This means that the V1 pre tube is bypassed and the SS circuit is in play.
In the high gain channel the amp will still play even if the V1 tube doesn't work cause it's bypassed.
Put the toggle switch in the "down" position and now it's a FULLY tube driven high gain tone where the V1 tube becomes active in the cascading signal chain. The "up" still uses the other pre tubes for cascading gain and tone, but V1 isn't in play.

I've played with both positions and there is a bit of tonal difference and gain difference though slight.
The "feel" is better using the all tube position for me. It just feels better using the V1 tube, and you can alter the gain and tone by swapping that tube whereas in the solid state mode it's more consistent.

If you were in the US I'd sell you my Ven head for a great price.
Why sell after all the praise?
I went a different route for my tone. I'm not using a clean Fender platform and use pedals to customize my distortion tones. Along with that the Fender combo's are smaller and easier to move around.
I have a Fender '68 Custom Deluxe Reverb 1x12, and a recently released new Fender '68 Custom Vibrolux Reverb with
2x10 combo. Right now I'm REALLY diggin the jangly clean tones with the ability to crank the amps to power tube break up/distortion without blowing out the windows. :)
The CDR is 22 watts and the CVR is around 35-40 watts.
The Ven is 120 at full power and 60 watts half power mode. But it's a cascading gain with master volume, so I can't get to real power tube break up without blowing out my ear drums and altering my heart beat. :) It's just freakin LOUD! even at 60 watts.

I also had a Laney Ironheart 60. GREAT amp too. Not as much gain as the Ven, 5150, 6505+ but it has a great tone all it's own. Very meaty, aggressive, and tonally rich. Plus, it looks fantastic with the bright red LED's inside the chassis that shine nicely. It's more Black Sabbath or Mastadon tonally. Never tried it with a good distortion pedal but I'm sure it would rock. I really liked the Ironheart 60 and at only $650 US it's a great price if it's a tone you're going for.
 
ArlingtonBeech":am0l0vjs said:
The fact is that I'm not able to test the 60W nor the 120W since I can't find any in stores for the moment.
I'm sure the 120W sounds better (punchier, deeper...) with the master on 5 than, saying the 60W with the master on 8 to have the same volume.
But I'm not sure, for a lower volume, that the 120W would necessarly sound better with the master on 3 than the 60W with the master on 5.
In the venues I play, most of the times it's impossible to play with a 100W and a master above 3.
60W and 120W are only 3dB different, however a 3dB makes an audible difference!
Don't know how much the amp rely on the power amp tubes to achieve the best tone.
Click to expand...

There isn't really that much difference between 50 to 100 watts, or 60 to 120 watts.
Yes, there is a 3db difference, which is a noticeable difference, but it's not like night and day.
You're on the right track about needing that much power. Even 50-60 watts can be VERY loud especially if you're running into efficient 2x12 cab or 4x12.
Nearly all of the amps you mention rely much more so on the pre tubes to get their high gain and tone as they are master volume amps. Trying to get to power tube break up/distortion will mean VERY loud settings.
Most master volume amps with cascading pre tube gain are not designed to get their distortion and high gain tone from the power tubes, though they are still in play just to a much lesser level than something like a non master volume amp.
 
My point about the 120 vs 60 watt debate was more about the tone...I've (and a friend) both had 50 watt Marshalls (JMP 2204s), they didn't have the bottom end like the 100s had...just our experience.
 
What about a used Rockerverb? I played a 50 watter that defined punchy and dynamic. It smoked a triple rec for attack and that, smack you in the chest, spank. The clean channel maxed out was an awesome crunchy tone and with a pedal could be very interesting. The gain channel got a bit useless after 1-2 O'clock but was doing fine with palm mutes at 12-1 O'clock. But you still could roll back the volume and get a nice slightly dirty and dynamic response. I'd be curious to try a 100 water but this 50 sounded tits. As one salesperson said after i played it.."She's the belle of the ball in here" :D
 
paulyc":qfwx0ko5 said:
My point about the 120 vs 60 watt debate was more about the tone...I've (and a friend) both had 50 watt Marshalls (JMP 2204s), they didn't have the bottom end like the 100s had...just our experience.
Click to expand...

Yes. :)
And I agree with you.

I was just responding more so about the volume difference.
In general, even with solid state amps, the greater power tends to give the sound more punch as there is greater headroom for transients in higher power amps even when played at the same volume as a lower power amp.
But there is still something to be said with power as used in tube guitar amps when you want more of that power tube tone without all the volume.
Lower wattage amps can be driven harder, relatively speaking, to get more power tube tone without all the volume.
But, to me that's more of an issue with non master volume amps.

The Egnater Vengeance can be played at half power at 60 watts while using the all the same amp components and it's a cool feature to have.
Playing between the two power settings even at the same volume level there is a tonal difference and a bit of feel difference too.
 
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