New House Speaker Johnson Goes Christian Nationalist In First Speech

[Bad Brain]

You're not being clear. Sorry man.

If you had to guess, following the course of this discussion, what authority do you think i might be referring to?!

 

[VonBonfire]

Authority over church matters, specifically that of biblical interpretation and the extra-biblical authority claimed by those who appeal to “Tradition” over the Bible itself.

2 Thess 15 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Word or our epistle. The apostolic fathers. The holy fathers. Pretty clear it's a combo, not "solely scripture" as you suggested pages earlier.

 

[Bad Brain]

2 Thess 15 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Word or our epistle. The apostolic fathers. The holy fathers. Pretty clear it's a combo, not "solely scripture" as you suggested pages earlier.

That’s the same verse the Catholics appeal to. And they argue direct apostolic succession from Peter. What say you?

 

[thegame]

Oh, you two:

 

[VonBonfire]

That’s the same verse the Catholics appeal to. And they argue direct apostolic succession from Peter. What say you?

 

[Bad Brain]

Great, but what evidence convinced you that the orthodox tradition is correct but not the Roman Catholic, seeing as they both essentially argue the same thing.

 

[VonBonfire]

Great, but what evidence convinced you that the orthodox tradition is correct but not the Roman Catholic, seeing as they both essentially argue the same thing.

Church history. The roman cathlics broke with eastern orthodoxy in 1054.

 

[Bad Brain]

Church history. The roman cathlics broke with eastern orthodoxy in 1054.

I’ll have to look at that. Regardless, and the same critique applies to both, what you’re presenting is circular reasoning: the holy fathers weren’t personally endowed with apostolic authority, but because they were ancient and more importantly as became the tradition, their doctrines are asserted to be consistent with the scripture and thus their writings are then said to be imbued with apostolic authority. Hopefully you can see the problem. Anyone could make the same claim, like the Roman Catholic Church for example. At least the Protestant church points to an objective standard anyone can verify, if not necessarily agree on.

 

[VonBonfire]

and the same critique applies to both, what you’re presenting is circular reasoning: the holy fathers weren’t personally endowed with apostolic authority, but because they were ancient and more importantly as became the tradition, their doctrines are asserted to be consistent with the scripture and thus their writings are then said to be imbued with apostolic authority.

The apostolic fathers walked with and learned from Christ in person, what more did you want? Your critiques only bear merit where heresy is concerned. You would do well to study that history because you will realize that the orthodox church is pre-denominational. Catholic but not Roman. Evangelical, but not protestant. Everything else is a heresy, an innovation. We don't believe in innovation.

 

[Bad Brain]

The apostolic fathers walked with and learned from Christ in person, what more did you want?

No they didn’t. And even if they did, what’s the point of having the apostle then? And even if there was a point, why wasn’t their writings canonized if it’s authoritative like scripture?

 

[Bad Brain]

the orthodox church is pre-denominational

That’s fine, but the claim is really that the Orthodox Church is the true church. And Protestants would argue the supposedly authoritative doctrine and traditions are in fact innovations. Clearly there have been doctrinal battles since the beginning, so again, the question is not one of age, but evidence that supports the assertion.

 

[VonBonfire]

No they didn’t.

Now the apostles didn't walk with Christ? You're losing me.

That’s fine, but the claim is really that the Orthodox Church is the true church. And Protestants would argue the supposedly authoritative doctrine and traditions are in fact innovations. Clearly there have been doctrinal battles since the beginning, so again, the question is not one of age, but evidence that supports the assertion.

The writings of the holy fathers addressed most of the heretical beliefs some of which are now part of protestantism almost 2000 years ago. The church remains but the heretics of that time are mostly forgotten. Remembered only for their error.

 

[Bad Brain]

Now the apostles didn't walk with Christ? You're losing me

Thought you meant the “holy fathers.” Please refer back to my original point,

 

[Thumbpicker]

The apostolic fathers walked with and learned from Christ in person, what more did you want? Your critiques only bear merit where heresy is concerned. You would do well to study that history because you will realize that the orthodox church is pre-denominational. Catholic but not Roman. Evangelical, but not protestant. Everything else is a heresy, an innovation. We don't believe in innovation.

The problem is if you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God then the Protestant reformation was about returning to what the Bible says and eliminating the changes that had been made by the Catholic Church. So really it was all about eliminating the "innovations" that were made over the years by the Catholic Church. I can't talk about the Orthodox Church because I don't know much about it - but if they also believe they can change the Bible to suit themselves then I'd level the same criticisms at them. For starters, Jesus taught us how to pray and is our high priest. We don't need priests in the middle for confession. Also you don't pray to Mary. She was just a human. She can't intercede. Same with Saints. Christians are all saints. There is no such thing as people elevated to some magical thing called a "saint" that you can pray to. Also no such thing as purgatory.