Nuno vs Lynch vs Prince vs Steve Vai

[RevDrucifer]

I’ve come to the conclusion there’s a subset of guitarists that hear a few notes played quickly in succession and their ability to detect any melody or ‘art’ is blocked by a big sign that says “JUST PLAYING FAST FOR THE SAKE OF IT”. It happens with non-guitarists as well, but it’s primarily guitarists who will go for the ‘just playing fast‘ thing before anyone else.

“so and so can’t write a song”…..no, they just don’t write songs you like to hear.

While I’ll agree about Yngwie going overboard with shred all day long, throwing Vai and Satch into that same heap is incredibly shortsighted, especially where Vai does legit composing for orchestras and has a better understanding of the guitar as a musical/compositional instrument than most that will ever shake the guy’s hand. I’m not even a huge Satch fan but that dude writes a shitload of earworm melodies that make up the majority of his songs. His songs are like 5% shred vs 95% melodic playing. I wouldn’t even put Satch on a shredder list, he’s just a dude who happens to play fast in his songs.

 

[67mike]

It's weird, this phenomenon I've noticed. If the guitarist in question is also the main singer/frontman of the band, said player is often held to a lower standard (as pertaining to guitar skills only) than if the same player's role was ONLY being the main guitarist in the band, everything else being exactly the same. I can't remember who it was in the 80's but there was a pretty big name artist (who was also the lead singer/frontman) that received a lot of praise for their playing but was merely average/competent in actuality. Maybe it was Bryan Adams or Sammy Hagar (pre-VH). At any rate, that same player wouldn't have received nearly the guitar god minded accolades they did if they weren't the face of the group. I think a current example of this is John Mayer. Ok, he's better than average honestly but certainly not at the elite level many put him in. The same thing can be said of multi-instrumentalists. That is very impressive and enviable in itself but rarely are they a phenom level talent at any one given instrument, let alone many of them.

Ian Thornley is lead singer and lead guitarist. He is an absolute MONSTER.

 

[jabps]

I’ve come to the conclusion there’s a subset of guitarists that hear a few notes played quickly in succession and their ability to detect any melody or ‘art’ is blocked by a big sign that says “JUST PLAYING FAST FOR THE SAKE OF IT”. It happens with non-guitarists as well, but it’s primarily guitarists who will go for the ‘just playing fast‘ thing before anyone else.

“so and so can’t write a song”…..no, they just don’t write songs you like to hear.

While I’ll agree about Yngwie going overboard with shred all day long, throwing Vai and Satch into that same heap is incredibly shortsighted, especially where Vai does legit composing for orchestras and has a better understanding of the guitar as a musical/compositional instrument than most that will ever shake the guy’s hand. I’m not even a huge Satch fan but that dude writes a shitload of earworm melodies that make up the majority of his songs. His songs are like 5% shred vs 95% melodic playing. I wouldn’t even put Satch on a shredder list, he’s just a dude who happens to play fast in his songs.

Exactly!

 

[tallcoolone]

If there's any evidence to support that, I'm all ears. He could do many, many things on a musical level, and more than most, but that's not one of them.

C’mon, my buddy does a great Eruption, pretty sure I’ve seen a Korean kid and some hottie in a short skirt do it too. Pretty sure I could but I don’t have the time and it would take me a whole lot of that lol. Eruption is cool cause EVH just whipped it out and it was mindblowing. <that’s what she said>. If you really don’t believe Prince could play Eruption with a little homework I think you really are vastly underestimating the man. I suppose I could be overestimating him too tho

This is fun but this is also a tough crowd to take on this debate with haha

 

[tallcoolone]

I’ve come to the conclusion there’s a subset of guitarists that hear a few notes played quickly in succession and their ability to detect any melody or ‘art’ is blocked by a big sign that says “JUST PLAYING FAST FOR THE SAKE OF IT”. It happens with non-guitarists as well, but it’s primarily guitarists who will go for the ‘just playing fast‘ thing before anyone else.

“so and so can’t write a song”…..no, they just don’t write songs you like to hear.

While I’ll agree about Yngwie going overboard with shred all day long, throwing Vai and Satch into that same heap is incredibly shortsighted, especially where Vai does legit composing for orchestras and has a better understanding of the guitar as a musical/compositional instrument than most that will ever shake the guy’s hand. I’m not even a huge Satch fan but that dude writes a shitload of earworm melodies that make up the majority of his songs. His songs are like 5% shred vs 95% melodic playing. I wouldn’t even put Satch on a shredder list, he’s just a dude who happens to play fast in his songs.

Well you have to include commercial success/popularity otherwise you can’t really have a “vs” thread right? I mean you can have a RT opinion, but how valid is that on a larger scale? Does anyone think the TGP opinion would be the same?

Everyone likes different things and you are right, just because I don’t dig someone’s music doesn’t mean it isn’t groundbreaking for others. Which is why GOAT discussions like these need to include commercial success, at least as a factor.

As far as people having a low tolerance for lightning fast guitar passages, I think the vast majority of non guitar players would fall into that category. IMO the most creative players can appeal to everyone. Eruption, CliffsoD, Satch Boogie etc.

 

[jabps]

Well you have to include commercial success/popularity otherwise you can’t really have a “vs” thread right?

See this, I don't understand. And I feel like I'm pretty well rounded when it comes to seeing all viewpoints.

Commercial success and artistic success are two different things. Can they be combined, absolutely but you can have artistic success without reaching the mainstream and vice versa.

I mean if we are relying on commercial success as a barometer to be considered great, then welcome CC Deville to the conversation because the guy has sold 55 million albums. Last I checked he's not on anyone's pedestal.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Well you have to include commercial success/popularity otherwise you can’t really have a “vs” thread right? I mean you can have a RT opinion, but how valid is that on a larger scale? Does anyone think the TGP opinion would be the same?

Everyone likes different things and you are right, just because I don’t dig someone’s music doesn’t mean it isn’t groundbreaking for others. Which is why GOAT discussions like these need to include commercial success, at least as a factor.

As far as people having a low tolerance for lightning fast guitar passages, I think the vast majority of non guitar players would fall into that category. IMO the most creative players can appeal to everyone. Eruption, CliffsoD, Satch Boogie etc.

Art and commerce have rarely lined up in any way I could view it as a steady measure. So much of it is based on the popular thing at the time and I think it’s largely unfair to a great many artists who have written incredible music to discount it because it wasn’t released in a specific time period.

The most popular music in the world and for the last 30 years has not been stuff the majority of this forum listens to. Would “Bohemian Rhapsody” be as huge if it were released tomorrow instead of back in the day? I think it *had* to be released in that era for it to be as big as it became.

Vai’s Passion And Warfare has sold 880,000 units in the US since it’s release, if he released that now he wouldn’t sell half of that. His later albums sold less and had less acclaim, but his musicianship and depth of composition was only growing that entire time.

I’m trying to avoid the boy band/pop music example the best I can, but that’s also a glaring example. The most popular music is almost never the biggest display of musicianship and sparks pretty big debates over it’s artistic integrity. I mean, does any given N’Sync song make you think “Fuck, these guys were truly inspired to come up with this!”?

I think there are definitively anomalies that come along, which I’d definitely consider “Eruption”, “Dover” or “Satch Boogie”, but life’s full of anomalies. Sometimes fish fall from the sky, sometimes a tsunami comes along, etc. And again, would any of those songs be as popular today as they were when they were released?

I don’t really get into the VS/better-than debates, as indicated in my first post here. It’s a moot point to me because music hits everyone on such personal levels and it can be different for everyone. IE- I love Vai and Gilmour for the exact same reason; they hit the right notes at the right time for me. When either of those dudes just bend a note and hold it at the right time, it’s always THE right time and it gives me the same freeing feeling. The technical aspects don’t mean shit to me in that sense, though I have tremendous respect for Vai’s compositional skills.

Or more closely related to this thread, the same things I dig about Prince’s music are a lot of the same things I dig about Vai’s music; all the production shit thrown in there that’s not the focus of the song, just the foundation/ear candy.

 

[tallcoolone]

I don’t really get into the VS/better-than debates, as indicated in my first post here. It’s a moot point to me because music hits everyone on such personal levels and it can be different for everyone

Then I agree with you 100%. Without the silly “versus/better” prerequisite this whole discussion is moot

 

[jabps]

Then I agree with you 100%. Without the silly “versus/better” prerequisite this whole discussion is moot

This I agree with. Two of my favorite players - Scott Gorham with Lizzy up to Black Rose / Jeff Carlisi with 38 Special - aren't ever going to win many vs's list with guys like EVH or Nuno but as @RevDrucifer said, their playing just hits the mark for me. And they are very meat n potatoes players.

My participation in this discussion was just limited to Prince and how his skills "on guitar" have taken on virtuoso status (which he is not), not how his playing or music in general affects people.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

The this guy vs that guy is in fact a pointless argument. But I always have time for the " what do you find is so great about this guy?" Threads.

Personally, my top guys are Michael Schenker, Adrian Smith, and Warren Demartini. Guys who always wrote solos for the songs.

Of course Nuno and YJM I love too, but they are the obvious names.

 

[RaceU4her]

See this, I don't understand. And I feel like I'm pretty well rounded when it comes to seeing all viewpoints.

Commercial success and artistic success are two different things. Can they be combined, absolutely but you can have artistic success without reaching the mainstream and vice versa.

I mean if we are relying on commercial success as a barometer to be considered great, then welcome CC Deville to the conversation because the guy has sold 55 million albums. Last I checked he's not on anyone's pedestal.

CC sold 55 million because he writes kick ass riff laden catchy songs with searing hummable solos. people hate on him cause he played Crates, if he played their favorite amp they would love him im sure

 

[Strandberg Junkie]

Jeff Carlisi with 38 Special

Still slap on their Greatest Hits album every once in a while.
There's a band that knew how to write great songs!

 

[jabps]

CC sold 55 million because he writes kick ass riff laden catchy songs with searing hummable solos. people hate on him cause he played Crates, if he played their favorite amp they would love him im sure

My point had nothing to do with song writing ability. You don't have to be a great musician or instrumentalist to be a great writer, CC is a classic example of that.

 

[splitendz]

Still slap on their Greatest Hits album every once in a while.
There's a band that knew how to write great songs!

Agree... their current lineup is great too. I live in the boonies, and they played nearby recently. A friend's band was opening, so I was hanging backstage. Spent most of my time talking to bass player Barry Dunaway milking him for YJM stories lol.