OK, So What Is So Special About Old Plexis?

[glip22]

OP you must not be over 40 in age yet Understanding your question can only happen when you get older.
I know you have been through a load of amps. I see your flipping.
What happens is you start out younger when there were not so many choices as there are today. You play Marshalls, Fenders, etc..

Then you go on philosophical journey of buying amps, and eventually selling them and losing allot of dough. You keep coming back to that Marshall mid right where you started. Then you flip that because you tell yourself it doesn't have enough gain and you hate pedals. You kick yourself but keep going. Nothing else has that mid. Some closer than others. Those old output transformers are part of it.

After the above happens enough, and you learn from experience, you decide that a Marshall is it. When you boost it the pedal blends and becomes the amp's tone. You realize almost all the modded Marshall circuits just lose something, whether it be the mid, the feel, and mostly the low end in some manner. Modders have a tough time getting the low end right. Nothing has that mid like a Marshall. My 73 PTP Superlead has major mojo and a thump when boosted like the Wizards had. Tight low end as well when boosted. I prefer it stock after I tried all the mods just like I have done allot of times before with the Marshalls I owned over the years. I always go back to a good old stock Marshall.
It never hurts to have a nice vintage Marshall in the stable.

 

[Racerxrated]

OP you must not be over 40 in age yet Understanding your question can only happen when you get older.
I know you have been through a load of amps. I see your flipping.
What happens is you start out younger when there were not so many choices as there are today. You play Marshalls, Fenders, etc..

Then you go on philosophical journey of buying amps, and eventually selling them and losing allot of dough. You keep coming back to that Marshall mid right where you started. Then you flip that because you tell yourself it doesn't have enough gain and you hate pedals. You kick yourself but keep going. Nothing else has that mid. Some closer than others. Those old output transformers are part of it.

After the above happens enough, and you learn from experience, you decide that a Marshall is it. When you boost it the pedal blends and becomes the amp's tone. You realize almost all the modded Marshall circuits just lose something, whether it be the mid, the feel, and mostly the low end in some manner. Modders have a tough time getting the low end right. Nothing has that mid like a Marshall. My 73 PTP Superlead has major mojo and a thump when boosted like the Wizards had. Tight low end as well when boosted. I prefer it stock after I tried all the mods just like I have done allot of times before with the Marshalls I owned over the years. I always go back to a good old stock Marshall.
It never hurts to have a nice vintage Marshall in the stable.

Gary speaks the truth! Honestly, this about sums up my journey lol.

 

[Racerxrated]

OK, so based on what I've heard so far, next question then is what clones or boutique models have a similar magic to the vintage Marshalls?

Don't laugh, but I played an old, dusty Mig 50 with matching 1x12 cab in a guitar shop in Detroit one time. It had scratchy pots and broken knobs and made all sorts of noise. But holy shit man... the "tone" that came out of that thing gave me literal goosebumps. I can count on one hand the number of times I've plugged into an amp and been dumbfounded by its "mojo." That was one of them. I'd have to look at a schematic, but I think the original Mig 50s share some DNA with the JMP/JCM800.

They are supposed to be almost exact clones of an 800.

 

[Racerxrated]

Like most or even all of you, I've had a shit ton of amps. Mostly Marshalls/modded Marshalls. And after all the vintage and reissue Marshalls I've had here, I can say that my version of the truth on this rests solely on the vintage Drakes/Dagnalls. Whether it's from aging or the way they made them then compared to now, IMO once you get ANY vintage Marshall up to a roaring volume the newer ones just fall short in THAT tone. Not by a lot, but still fall short.
Case in point..Jubilees are my favorite Marshall, with a boost. They've chased even the Camerons away.
I had a 2555x and then scored a 1990 black tolex 2555. The reissue is spot on, and killer...but when I compared them at 5-7 on the master the vintage 2555 just sounded better. Not a ton, but better nonetheless. And I've had reissue 2203s, 1959s, 1987s, etc.

I've always wanted to try a Silver Jubilee. But haven't come across one before.

They need a boost or even 2, as I do, to get them where I like. But they have a bit of HiWatt and even Wizard to them, in the top end to my ears. They also have a GREAT and responsive EQ unlike most or all Marshalls...lots of low end and extended highs if you will. I had a Wizard MTL and there are some similarities between them. But still very different.

 

[Rick Lee]

I use Strats.

Your avatar doesn't support that statement.

Is there a rule that your avatar should reflect the guitars you play? asshole

Lighten up, Francis. Sheesh.

 

[japetus]

They sound amazing. Then people mod them to sound like an amp they could have just bought off of the shelf for less, and usually don't sound as good...thereby ruining all of the classic amps for generations to come.

 

[SavageRiffer]

OK, so based on what I've heard so far, next question then is what clones or boutique models have a similar magic to the vintage Marshalls?

Don't laugh, but I played an old, dusty Mig 50 with matching 1x12 cab in a guitar shop in Detroit one time. It had scratchy pots and broken knobs and made all sorts of noise. But holy shit man... the "tone" that came out of that thing gave me literal goosebumps. I can count on one hand the number of times I've plugged into an amp and been dumbfounded by its "mojo." That was one of them. I'd have to look at a schematic, but I think the original Mig 50s share some DNA with the JMP/JCM800.

I know how people value them, heard some great sounds from them, but never tried one.

OP you must not be over 40 in age yet Understanding your question can only happen when you get older.
I know you have been through a load of amps. I see your flipping.
What happens is you start out younger when there were not so many choices as there are today. You play Marshalls, Fenders, etc..

Then you go on philosophical journey of buying amps, and eventually selling them and losing allot of dough. You keep coming back to that Marshall mid right where you started. Then you flip that because you tell yourself it doesn't have enough gain and you hate pedals. You kick yourself but keep going. Nothing else has that mid. Some closer than others. Those old output transformers are part of it.

After the above happens enough, and you learn from experience, you decide that a Marshall is it. When you boost it the pedal blends and becomes the amp's tone. You realize almost all the modded Marshall circuits just lose something, whether it be the mid, the feel, and mostly the low end in some manner. Modders have a tough time getting the low end right. Nothing has that mid like a Marshall. My 73 PTP Superlead has major mojo and a thump when boosted like the Wizards had. Tight low end as well when boosted. I prefer it stock after I tried all the mods just like I have done allot of times before with the Marshalls I owned over the years. I always go back to a good old stock Marshall.
It never hurts to have a nice vintage Marshall in the stable.

I've always kind of gravitated towards Marshall, but that kind of preference you describe really only hits me with Hiwatts. I think I agree with what you say, and as Racerxrated says, it's the truth, but I think that way about the reissues. Perhaps I just need to settle on a good Hiwatt. I don't know why I've gone round trip to every amp on the planet and never just bought a Hiwatt to rely on. Now I think I might just do that.

 

[CrazyNutz]

I like 68 spec. Super Lead Plexi, the best. Never had a chance to play a "real" vintage one, but I have built two clones (with PPIMV's). Yes, not a high gain monster, but jumper the channels and tweak the volumes of the bass, bright channel and you'll get tones that no other amp has to offer.

 

[Rick Lee]

IMHO, recordings only capture part of what makes Marshalls sound so awesome. The tone voicing or coloring are there in Youtube videos. But what you can't hear/feel that way is the depth those giant transformers give them. You just have to be in the same room with the amp and have it cranked up. Doesn't need to be ear-splitting volume, but there really is a magic about them you'll feel when you're right there and have it dialed in.

The other day I fired up my '69 100w clone for the first time in about a month. It has Merren trannies and choke and an amazing bigness about it. But it suddenly didn't sound as full as I remembered it. Then I noticed the bass knob was at around noon. Once I dimed that, geezus, did it come to life. I really felt it in my teeth and feet.

Everyone says how great those DeYoung trannies in Soldanos are, but I don't think they have the bigness of the ones usually found in the 100w Plexis. Both of mine, one with ClassicTones and one with Merrens, sound just huge. Hard to describe, but it's there.

 

[copilot]

OK, so based on what I've heard so far, next question then is what clones or boutique models have a similar magic to the vintage Marshalls?

Don't laugh, but I played an old, dusty Mig 50 with matching 1x12 cab in a guitar shop in Detroit one time. It had scratchy pots and broken knobs and made all sorts of noise. But holy shit man... the "tone" that came out of that thing gave me literal goosebumps. I can count on one hand the number of times I've plugged into an amp and been dumbfounded by its "mojo." That was one of them. I'd have to look at a schematic, but I think the original Mig 50s share some DNA with the JMP/JCM800.

I know how people value them, heard some great sounds from them, but never tried one.

OP you must not be over 40 in age yet Understanding your question can only happen when you get older.
I know you have been through a load of amps. I see your flipping.
What happens is you start out younger when there were not so many choices as there are today. You play Marshalls, Fenders, etc..

Then you go on philosophical journey of buying amps, and eventually selling them and losing allot of dough. You keep coming back to that Marshall mid right where you started. Then you flip that because you tell yourself it doesn't have enough gain and you hate pedals. You kick yourself but keep going. Nothing else has that mid. Some closer than others. Those old output transformers are part of it.

After the above happens enough, and you learn from experience, you decide that a Marshall is it. When you boost it the pedal blends and becomes the amp's tone. You realize almost all the modded Marshall circuits just lose something, whether it be the mid, the feel, and mostly the low end in some manner. Modders have a tough time getting the low end right. Nothing has that mid like a Marshall. My 73 PTP Superlead has major mojo and a thump when boosted like the Wizards had. Tight low end as well when boosted. I prefer it stock after I tried all the mods just like I have done allot of times before with the Marshalls I owned over the years. I always go back to a good old stock Marshall.
It never hurts to have a nice vintage Marshall in the stable.

I've always kind of gravitated towards Marshall, but that kind of preference you describe really only hits me with Hiwatts. I think I agree with what you say, and as Racerxrated says, it's the truth, but I think that way about the reissues. Perhaps I just need to settle on a good Hiwatt. I don't know why I've gone round trip to every amp on the planet and never just bought a Hiwatt to rely on. Now I think I might just do that.

Look at Hi-Tone. Many different models including the classics and signature models. I got a JP50, Jimmy Page Hiwatt (Hi-Tone) Great amp and pedal platform.

 

[SavageRiffer]

OK, so based on what I've heard so far, next question then is what clones or boutique models have a similar magic to the vintage Marshalls?

Don't laugh, but I played an old, dusty Mig 50 with matching 1x12 cab in a guitar shop in Detroit one time. It had scratchy pots and broken knobs and made all sorts of noise. But holy shit man... the "tone" that came out of that thing gave me literal goosebumps. I can count on one hand the number of times I've plugged into an amp and been dumbfounded by its "mojo." That was one of them. I'd have to look at a schematic, but I think the original Mig 50s share some DNA with the JMP/JCM800.

I know how people value them, heard some great sounds from them, but never tried one.

OP you must not be over 40 in age yet Understanding your question can only happen when you get older.
I know you have been through a load of amps. I see your flipping.
What happens is you start out younger when there were not so many choices as there are today. You play Marshalls, Fenders, etc..

Then you go on philosophical journey of buying amps, and eventually selling them and losing allot of dough. You keep coming back to that Marshall mid right where you started. Then you flip that because you tell yourself it doesn't have enough gain and you hate pedals. You kick yourself but keep going. Nothing else has that mid. Some closer than others. Those old output transformers are part of it.

After the above happens enough, and you learn from experience, you decide that a Marshall is it. When you boost it the pedal blends and becomes the amp's tone. You realize almost all the modded Marshall circuits just lose something, whether it be the mid, the feel, and mostly the low end in some manner. Modders have a tough time getting the low end right. Nothing has that mid like a Marshall. My 73 PTP Superlead has major mojo and a thump when boosted like the Wizards had. Tight low end as well when boosted. I prefer it stock after I tried all the mods just like I have done allot of times before with the Marshalls I owned over the years. I always go back to a good old stock Marshall.
It never hurts to have a nice vintage Marshall in the stable.

I've always kind of gravitated towards Marshall, but that kind of preference you describe really only hits me with Hiwatts. I think I agree with what you say, and as Racerxrated says, it's the truth, but I think that way about the reissues. Perhaps I just need to settle on a good Hiwatt. I don't know why I've gone round trip to every amp on the planet and never just bought a Hiwatt to rely on. Now I think I might just do that.

Look at Hi-Tone. Many different models including the classics and signature models. I got a JP50, Jimmy Page Hiwatt (Hi-Tone) Great amp and pedal platform.

Yeah man, I was checking out their Lead 30 the other day. I used to have a Reeves Custom 12 which was awesome, and I've played a Hiwatt Hi-Gain 100, so I'm kind of torn between all three brands right now.

 

[Scumback Speakers]

I used to bring my 69 Super Bass and 71 Super Lead to the LA AMP Show, along with the replicas I made. I used a Metro Amp Switcher to go between heads/cabs on the fly. Other than the real Plexis had about 5% more volume (plate voltage/bias settings at work there) they sounded identical. People in the room freaked when the comparison was done.

Then they asked me what was in the clones...well, I used NOS mustard caps, special Mercury Plexi trannies, NOS preamp and power tubes. When you put one of these together, you're going to wind up spending close to $2500 in parts, plus labor and tubes, you may as well call it $3500.

A real Plexi in great shape will cost you that much, if not more. The only thing you can factor in on the clone is that you can usually bank on them being more reliable due to being new vs 50 years old.

But you still wind up getting that thump in the chest, pant legs flapping in the breeze thing going on. Granted for higher gain you'll need a pedal. You can't do metal with a Plexi without one, IMO.

But heck, a boost or OD pedal is a cheap upgrade.

 

[SavageRiffer]

I used to bring my 69 Super Bass and 71 Super Lead to the LA AMP Show, along with the replicas I made. I used a Metro Amp Switcher to go between heads/cabs on the fly. Other than the real Plexis had about 5% more volume (plate voltage/bias settings at work there) they sounded identical. People in the room freaked when the comparison was done.

Then they asked me what was in the clones...well, I used NOS mustard caps, special Mercury Plexi trannies, NOS preamp and power tubes. When you put one of these together, you're going to wind up spending close to $2500 in parts, plus labor and tubes, you may as well call it $3500.

A real Plexi in great shape will cost you that much, if not more. The only thing you can factor in on the clone is that you can usually bank on them being more reliable due to being new vs 50 years old.

But you still wind up getting that thump in the chest, pant legs flapping in the breeze thing going on. Granted for higher gain you'll need a pedal. You can't do metal with a Plexi without one, IMO.

But heck, a boost or OD pedal is a cheap upgrade.

So if you don't need an actual vintage plexi, who makes authentic plexi clones that get you real vintage plexi sounds?

 

[Rick Lee]

So if you don't need an actual vintage plexi, who makes authentic plexi clones that get you real vintage plexi sounds?

Germino and Metropoulos are probably the best, but they don't come cheap. Cheaper options are Ceriatone, Rockitt Retro and several others. Nice thing about the boutique clone builders is their customer service is amazing. You can call them right up and talk through issues. Try that with Marshall.

 

[Scumback Speakers]

So if you don't need an actual vintage plexi, who makes authentic plexi clones that get you real vintage plexi sounds?

I made my own, using a Metro 100w 1968 spec kit, but swapped out the trannies, caps/resistors with NOS Mustards, and ANOS tubes.

If you want to buy one already built, then Metro, and Germino are the ones that are the most highly rated. I've got amps from both of them, great support and products from both.

There are others that make them as well, but using different transformers, etc, but I think the Metro & Germino offerings are the closest to the real deal. You're still going to shell out $3k plus to have it done right, though.

 

[psychodave]

OK, so based on what I've heard so far, next question then is what clones or boutique models have a similar magic to the vintage Marshalls?

Absolutely zero, none.

If there was one, I'd buy it and sell my 67 plexi and laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[harddriver]

After all these years I truly believe the biggest component to the plexi years 1966-1970 was the transformers, not totally discounting mustard caps and Iskra resistors. There seem to be less holy grail amps starting in 1970-1973 for some reason. Marshall started using PCB boards in 1973-74 electrically they are the same, I believe 1972 was the last full year of PTP boards. I have a 1972 PTP 1987 and while it's a good sounding amp I wouldn't call it a grail plexi/SL tone in it's stock form. I also think even in 1966-1970 years the amps are hit and miss on which ones were gainy and tuneful hence all the tone chasing over the years... when you hear a great one you know it. When I hear new Plexi builds with NOS mustards/Iskra's/Phier's with new iron they seem to miss this magic. I'm not sure if construction methods are that much different then in the 60's or not. Supposedly Merren and Classic Tone claim to be using identical methods and materials.

I had a 79 MV 2203 that was just an awesome amp back in the 80's,in the 90's it started having problems and it lost it's mojo... never recovered after many trips to techs, I believe it was transformer issues but could have been anything really, no one could diagnose it. A fellow guitarist went out and bought a new 1983 JCM800 2204 because of my amp and his amp was a dog, very flat anemic sounding not a lot of gain, it just never sounded good. I bought this amp from him cause I wanted a JCM800 and I'm getting ready to gut the amp and rebuild/mod it. I have no reservations about gutting it... cause it still sounds crappy after all these years, it has the original dagnall's we'll see what happens.

 

[Rick Lee]

I had a 79 MV 2203 that was just an awesome amp back in the 80's,in the 90's it started having problems and it lost it's mojo... never recovered after many trips to techs, I believe it was transformer issues but could have been anything really, no one could diagnose it. A fellow guitarist went out and bought a new 1983 JCM800 2204 because of my amp and his amp was a dog, very flat anemic sounding not a lot of gain, it just never sounded good. I bought this amp from him cause I wanted a JCM800 and I'm getting ready to gut the amp and rebuild/mod it. I have no reservations about gutting it... cause it still sounds crappy after all these years, it has the original dagnall's we'll see what happens.

This is the problem with Marshalls - you never know what you're gonna get. Unless you can play it at band volume and pull the chassis for a close inspection, you just won't know what it is. I swear, back in the day they had to have had little plastic bins full of components of identical values but made by various companies. Sometimes they happened to build an amp that had the perfect combination of components, likely on the days Rosemary was working in 1967-69. But everything else is hit or miss. When you get a good one, geezus, they sound amazing. But you can get two of the exact same year and model and, even unmodded, they will sound different from each other.

 

[SavageRiffer]

So which model Germino delivers authentic vintage goods?

 

[Scumback Speakers]

So which model Germino delivers authentic vintage goods?

Pretty sure the Headroom 100 is the one I got, but I did spec out original Mustards from the 60's, and Greg got that all dialed in for me, as well as the Merren trannies that many rave about. Pretty sure George has his own special tranny sources, but they sound excellent as well.

I used a custom Plexi spec that Mercury makes in my demo amps, but no one orders, and it was spot on to my 71 Super Lead. There were 15 or so players in my room at the 2013 LA Amp show that heard it compared to the 71 with the Metro Amp Switcher, and it was the same tone at all respective volumes to the 71. We tried it with 3 different cabs & speakers just to make sure we didn't hear it wrong.

After that comparison I decided original Plexis weren't worth chasing anymore. Yes, I still have four old Marshalls, but I'm not chasing that tone since I have it covered in droves now.

And yeah, we did crank the amp to 9 or 10, sent some 12 year old kid running scared and crying from the room while his Dad sat there with a big grin on his face playing the stack. It was damned humorous to watch, trust me!