Robert Card (Maine Mass Shooter) Case Analysis

[JTyson]

Not really, no. If a selling point of guns is that they stop other guns, the same logic says not having guns means you don’t need other guns.

I think your logic here is somewhat skewed by the assumption that both of the people who are against each other are on equal terms. One of them means to murder the other or rob them or rape them. The other just wants to be able to defend themselves and would never initiate lethal force with no reason whatsoever to do so. A properly trained individual knows full well not to shoot someone unless you have no options left.
Again, 250,000 times a year by the FBI's own numbers a criminal is stopped by a lawful gun owner. Dosent mean they shot them (but sometimes they have to) But just think what the numbers of innocent people killed, robbed or raped would be if you took out their ability to stop them.
Criminals care little or not at all what laws are passed. Everything they are doing is already breaking existing laws that have been in place for a hundred years, and they are never under the impression they are not breaking the law.
In the end, there are wolves, sheep, and sheep dogs. The sheep can certainly choose to go through life unarmed, and the sheep dogs don't mind at all that they choose to do that.. They certainly have that freedom. Freedom bought and paid for by people with guns....
They just mind when the sheep try to take away that same freedom from the sheep dogs.
If the actual objective is to save innocent lives (not criminals) the sheep dogs should be left alone. Starting a civil war by passing laws that would disarm millions of people who absolutely will not comply and will fight to stop it seems to be a path forward that has not been thought through properly. Remember the ones passing those laws are the ones breaking laws that were already in place from the beginning, and those same people took an oath not to do the very thing they are trying to do..

 

[Bad Brain]

If a selling point of guns is that they stop other guns, the same logic says not having guns means you don’t need other guns.

You do logic? How do you propose getting rid of all the guns?

 

[Dan Gleesak]

I think your logic here is somewhat skewed by the assumption that both of the people who are against each other are on equal terms. One of them means to murder the other or rob them or rape them. The other just wants to be able to defend themselves and would never initiate lethal force with no reason whatsoever to do so. A properly trained individual knows full well not to shoot someone unless you have no options left.
Again, 250,000 times a year by the FBI's own numbers a criminal is stopped by a lawful gun owner. Dosent mean they shot them (but sometimes they have to) But just think what the numbers of innocent people killed, robbed or raped would be if you took out their ability to stop them.
Criminals care little or not at all what laws are passed. Everything they are doing is already breaking existing laws that have been in place for a hundred years, and they are never under the impression they are not breaking the law.
In the end, there are wolves, sheep, and sheep dogs. The sheep can certainly choose to go through life unarmed, and the sheep dogs don't mind at all that they choose to do that.. They certainly have that freedom. Freedom bought and paid for by people with guns....
They just mind when the sheep try to take away that same freedom from the sheep dogs.
If the actual objective is to save innocent lives (not criminals) the sheep dogs should be left alone. Starting a civil war by passing laws that would disarm millions of people who absolutely will not comply and will fight to stop it seems to be a path forward that has not been thought through properly. Remember the ones passing those laws are the ones breaking laws that were already in place from the beginning, and those same people took an oath not to do the very thing they are trying to do..

Very true. i was just bringing up the logical fallacy of another poster.
I do wonder how much “gun crime” happens with legally obtained guns though. As in guns brought in to the country illegally vs someone who either legally owns a gun/illegally buys one from a legal owner. That would shine a bright light on things I think.
I mean the idea of taking away everyone’s guns is not a good one and I doubt it will ever happen, but for discussion and logic sake, it would be very interesting to know

 

[JTyson]

Very true. i was just bringing up the logical fallacy of another poster.
I do wonder how much “gun crime” happens with legally obtained guns though. As in guns brought in to the country illegally vs someone who either legally owns a gun/illegally buys one from a legal owner. That would shine a bright light on things I think.
I mean the idea of taking away everyone’s guns is not a good one and I doubt it will ever happen, but for discussion and logic sake, it would be very interesting to know

That would be a good stat to know, I would imagine those numbers are out there. If I had to guess, I would think under 4% if you separate suicides and anything other than "gun crime occurrences with legally obtained firearms" Lots of the data compiled is lumped together to give the impression those numbers are higher than they actually are. It happens constantly, especially if the conversation involves so called "assault weapons"
The vast majority of people who own guns are very responsible with them. They know full well that if you screw up with a gun, the consequences are you will likely loose the right to have them at all given the current political climate.. Goofballs and/or criminals rarely have a lifetime of consistent good firearm behavior to draw upon. The signs of trouble started early on and got worse with time. I'm sure there are exceptions to everything, but behavioral patterns between responsible people and criminals have for sure been tracked over the years, and responsible people tend to stay responsible, while criminal behavior seems to be a recurring event for criminals with some exceptions..
Humans tend to be animals of habit, be it good or bad...

 

[JTyson]

I'll just add that people with mental issue's lied on the purchase form paperwork in the first place, so they are also taken out of the equation.
Even though the last handful of mass shootings were stated to be "legally obtained" if you lie on that form, you did not legally purchase that weapon. Case closed. There are at least 7 of these in the last number of years.
There has to be a way to at least mostly address that issue, but the powers that be don't seem to want to only apply the solution to the problematic individuals.. And hence, nothing changes

 

[scottosan]

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60 percent of Canadian households have guns, BTW. This is actually a higher number oh households than the US.

 

[Bad Brain]

 

[Bad Brain]

•Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and one teacher and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

•Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. Ten dead, 12 wounded.

•Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

•Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

•Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire, killing two classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

•Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

•A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed standoff at his school.

•Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.

•Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding ten others.

•TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.

•James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

•Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

•Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

•Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported having been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

•Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for his conditions.”

•Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed nine students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

•Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax, and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

•Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

•Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

•Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

https://www.ammoland.com/2013/04/every-mass-shooting-in-the-last-20-years-shares-psychotropic-drugs/

 

[Stripped Rights]

60 percent of Canadian households have guns, BTW. This is actually a higher number oh households than the US.

Canadas population is only 38 mil while Americas population is 331 mil. I didn't think we had that many more people until now. Something to consider though.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

60 percent of Canadian households have guns, BTW. This is actually a higher number oh households than the US.

And how many school shootings do they have per year?

 

[Thumbpicker]

Nice and safe here in Australia. Something's different whether it's less batshit crazy people or guns... take your pick.

 

[Bad Brain]

This is a very rudimentary analysis, but I don’t see any correlation.

 

[Bad Brain]

The psychiatric med hypothesis is aimed at finding a causal link. The anti-gun crowd knows that guns are not the cause of gun violence, but rather the instrument of gun violence. They apparently don’t want to look any deeper than that.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Nice and safe here in Australia. Something's different whether it's less batshit crazy people or guns... take your pick.

yea it sucks. My daughter has gone through "active shooter training" at school since Kindergarten, that's pretty fucked up man. Kids in highschool now have gone through it their entire lives.
I remember being in my school auditorium, watching the news as a collective when the plane struck the 2nd tower on 9/11. There has been an immense loss of innocence ever since in US schools.

 

[Bad Brain]

yea it sucks. My daughter has gone through "active shooter training" at school since Kindergarten, that's pretty fucked up man. Kids in highschool now have gone through it their entire lives.

And you’re not at all curious about the psychotropic drug violence link in children? Wow.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

And you’re not at all curious about the psychotropic drug violence link in children? Wow.

What makes you say that? I brought up mental illness weeks ago and you are the one that told me there was no link between that and gun violence.
If you want to argue that there is no link between mental illness and psychotropics, then knock yourself out.

 

[Thumbpicker]

yea it sucks. My daughter has gone through "active shooter training" at school since Kindergarten, that's pretty fucked up man. Kids in highschool now have gone through it their entire lives.
I remember being in my school auditorium, watching the news as a collective when the plane struck the 2nd tower on 9/11. There has been an immense loss of innocence ever since in US schools.

We find the first paragraph there mind boggling...
Re: 911 - I was due in Washington DC the next day for a conference because I worked for Qantas as a Project Manager for their financial systems. That never happened and eventually a lot of other projects were canned due to a downturn in air travel because of it. I basically lost my job because 911 along with quite a lot of other people.

 

[Thumbpicker]

This is a very rudimentary analysis, but I don’t see any correlation.View attachment 264303
View attachment 264306

Interesting that Gun deaths in South America and Africa are generally higher and the US has significant populations of both within its borders. Coincidence?

 

[Bad Brain]

Interesting that Gun deaths in South America and Africa are generally higher and the US has significant populations of both within its borders. Coincidence?

Worth considering for sure.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Interesting that Gun deaths in South America and Africa are generally higher and the US has significant populations of both within its borders. Coincidence?

I’d be interested to see it broken down into how developed the areas are. When I was landscaping I worked with a lot of guys from South America and they all had stories of heavily armed police officers wandering the streets, often bribing the citizens for one reason or another.
The US police do not have a perfect record either, but I can’t say I’ve ever been hit up by one for my lunch money