Scott Henderson Sounds off on Internet/Music Business

[kasperjensen]

Unfortunately with music you don't need training or schooling to go out and compete for time and money in the professional arena. It's art, there are no rules. Unlike many of the bad correlations being made here to other industries, like Real Estate. It makes me glad I no longer pursue making a living in a band as I never did come close in the first place and just doing music for fun is all I can handle in my 39, over the hill, state. Plus my day gig pays pretty good and I'm too old to go for long drives in close quarters for no reward anymore. Now any yahoo with a PC and $200 interface can "release" product. How is a potential consumer meant to find real art/talent amongst this sea of MySpace minutia.

Plus having to deal with the utterly self absorbed, work ethically challenged tools called musicians I knew over the years is not something I miss.

How is that a bad correlation? Do you think we have rules for what we can or can't do to our competitors? Do you think that I have a degree in commercial real estate? It doesnt matter what industry it is... It's all about delivering the best product, and the best price. Or at a price that can easily be justified. Same with music.

Don't you at least need a real estate license? There's a big difference beteen an industry like real estate and music where anyone who decides to buy a guitar or "saxaphone" can immediately try and step into the same arena as a seasoned professional. I'm not sayin' there aren't freshly licensed hacks doing real estate but at least they had to study a little to get a license...or don't you have to anymore?

Plus I think it's well established that a pro's best attempts at making money are either live performance or some form of merchandising, usually sold at that show. So I guess if the "best price" for delivering that performance is free then I guess they must be screwed.

But I also agree with the it is the way it is as far as DL goes and cryin' about the old days before DL are useless. Have to adapt if possible. Ultimately I don't care because I'm not trying to do that anymore in my life. But it also might be why I can't find a decent new rock record anymore too.

Well, you buy a building, and start renting it out. That's pretty much it. If you want to work as an agent that sells the buildings, then you would need a license, but that's not really that hard to get hold off. Just some ground work, and an exam.
But its the same with music. You can't just buy a guitar and go on tour. You need to dedicate time and money to develop your product (you).
In principle its the same thing.

(just replying in general now)
I am not saying that people should be doing it for free, but that won't happen either.
For example... Michael Schumacher will receive an estimated $40m for racing with Mercedes F1 this year. $10m annual salary, and $30m in sponsorship fees.
There are plenty of experienced drivers who would do his job for less than 1/10th of the price, but the bottom line would also show accordingly.
For Mercedes, Schumacher is worth $10m because of what the value he adds to their brand, and sales.
If however, there was a driver who would bring the exact same value and added sales, but only charged $1m... who do you think would get the gig?

Another way of explaining this very simply would be to imagine two guitar stores next to each other.
- Guitar City offers you a Marshall JVM head for $1999, including 3 years guarantee.
- Guitar Village offers you the same Marhsall, for $1599, including 5 years in store guarantee, and a fresh set of tubes after 3 years.

In which store would you part with your money?

 

[kasperjensen]

I don't see anything wrong with people undercutting if the situation calls for it.
That's the situation in all other business, and I don't see why music should be an exception.

By day I am in commercial real estate. I charge a certain price for my product, which is justified because it is a good product that people just can't find other places.
Many of my competitors are undercutting something rotten, some are even giving their shit away for free. But are all my customers running to them? No. Because I deliver a better product. Simple.
If however someone came along and offered the exact same product, in the same location, for half the price, I would have a problem. If that person could ride it long enough, I would be out, and he would just have doubled his business. Real shitty, but that's business.

It is no different for a band. If you can guarantee the venue $20.000 extra in their till the night you play, then it stands to good reason you can charge $10.000. (just an example)
Now, if there are 4 bands in your area that can generate the same amount of income for a venue, you got yourself a race. The one that wins that race, is the one who can effectively wipe out the other 3 bands. And you can do that by either generating more income for the venue by raising their turnover, or by reducing their costs. Or both.

Rant over.

So...same product, same location for free...that's ok then?
I have no issue with competition, but driving the wages down to free is BS.

Is it OK? I won't be the judge of that. But if someone wants my business then that is how they would do it. Once they have taken me out, they are sitting on all the honey, and can then chose to do business at whatever price they should so chose. Until someone else comes along, and the whole thing starts over again. And then you get conglomerates, who seek to own everything. And they will eventually succeed.
"I don't like it anymore than you folks..." but that's just the way it is. And you can either stand your ground and fight, or go home.

Think also of chefs... They work for free for years, in order to get a name for themselves and gain experience and contacts, so that they can one day charge the big bucks.

Which chefs work for free? Unless you're talking about going to cooking school, they do get paid.

There are plenty. Most chefs in Europe (mainly France) will have to go and work for a well respected chef after school. For free. I am not talking about a chef that can flip hamburgers... but Michelin Star chefs.

And I would do exactly the same thing. If I had the level of playing needed, and someone like say... Keith Urban, offered me to come on the road, but I wouldn't get paid... I would take it in a heart beat. Or if it stood between me and another guitarist... I would undercut him to make sure that I got the gig.

Dude, I got what you meant, I'm born and raised in Germany and aware of the apprenticeship concept. But it isn't free, it's next to free, but is consider part of your schooling. Next step is journey man, where you make okay money, and then when you open your shop you have to be at master artisan level. All of this is union inspected...

As for the Urban thing, you do realize that unless you're Dann Huff pretty much every one will make the same for this gig, plus it's a union gig right?

I was just using the Urban thing as an example. I am sure its very regulated at that level. Although I am sure that all that will change in the future, as more and more people enter the game.
All I am saying is that if it can be done within the law... undercutting is fair game.

 

[degenaro]

Unfortunately with music you don't need training or schooling to go out and compete for time and money in the professional arena. It's art, there are no rules. Unlike many of the bad correlations being made here to other industries, like Real Estate. It makes me glad I no longer pursue making a living in a band as I never did come close in the first place and just doing music for fun is all I can handle in my 39, over the hill, state. Plus my day gig pays pretty good and I'm too old to go for long drives in close quarters for no reward anymore. Now any yahoo with a PC and $200 interface can "release" product. How is a potential consumer meant to find real art/talent amongst this sea of MySpace minutia.

Plus having to deal with the utterly self absorbed, work ethically challenged tools called musicians I knew over the years is not something I miss.

How is that a bad correlation? Do you think we have rules for what we can or can't do to our competitors? Do you think that I have a degree in commercial real estate? It doesnt matter what industry it is... It's all about delivering the best product, and the best price. Or at a price that can easily be justified. Same with music.

Don't you at least need a real estate license? There's a big difference beteen an industry like real estate and music where anyone who decides to buy a guitar or "saxaphone" can immediately try and step into the same arena as a seasoned professional. I'm not sayin' there aren't freshly licensed hacks doing real estate but at least they had to study a little to get a license...or don't you have to anymore?

Plus I think it's well established that a pro's best attempts at making money are either live performance or some form of merchandising, usually sold at that show. So I guess if the "best price" for delivering that performance is free then I guess they must be screwed.

But I also agree with the it is the way it is as far as DL goes and cryin' about the old days before DL are useless. Have to adapt if possible. Ultimately I don't care because I'm not trying to do that anymore in my life. But it also might be why I can't find a decent new rock record anymore too.

Well, you buy a building, and start renting it out. That's pretty much it. If you want to work as an agent that sells the buildings, then you would need a license, but that's not really that hard to get hold off. Just some ground work, and an exam.
But its the same with music. You can't just buy a guitar and go on tour. You need to dedicate time and money to develop your product (you).
In principle its the same thing.

(just replying in general now)
I am not saying that people should be doing it for free, but that won't happen either.
For example... Michael Schumacher will receive an estimated $40m for racing with Mercedes F1 this year. $10m annual salary, and $30m in sponsorship fees.
There are plenty of experienced drivers who would do his job for less than 1/10th of the price, but the bottom line would also show accordingly.
For Mercedes, Schumacher is worth $10m because of what the value he adds to their brand, and sales.
If however, there was a driver who would bring the exact same value and added sales, but only charged $1m... who do you think would get the gig?

Another way of explaining this very simply would be to imagine two guitar stores next to each other.
- Guitar City offers you a Marshall JVM head for $1999, including 3 years guarantee.
- Guitar Village offers you the same Marhsall, for $1599, including 5 years in store guarantee, and a fresh set of tubes after 3 years.

In which store would you part with your money?

Point taken with the guitar store example.

 

[degenaro]

I don't see anything wrong with people undercutting if the situation calls for it.
That's the situation in all other business, and I don't see why music should be an exception.

By day I am in commercial real estate. I charge a certain price for my product, which is justified because it is a good product that people just can't find other places.
Many of my competitors are undercutting something rotten, some are even giving their shit away for free. But are all my customers running to them? No. Because I deliver a better product. Simple.
If however someone came along and offered the exact same product, in the same location, for half the price, I would have a problem. If that person could ride it long enough, I would be out, and he would just have doubled his business. Real shitty, but that's business.

It is no different for a band. If you can guarantee the venue $20.000 extra in their till the night you play, then it stands to good reason you can charge $10.000. (just an example)
Now, if there are 4 bands in your area that can generate the same amount of income for a venue, you got yourself a race. The one that wins that race, is the one who can effectively wipe out the other 3 bands. And you can do that by either generating more income for the venue by raising their turnover, or by reducing their costs. Or both.

Rant over.

So...same product, same location for free...that's ok then?
I have no issue with competition, but driving the wages down to free is BS.

Is it OK? I won't be the judge of that. But if someone wants my business then that is how they would do it. Once they have taken me out, they are sitting on all the honey, and can then chose to do business at whatever price they should so chose. Until someone else comes along, and the whole thing starts over again. And then you get conglomerates, who seek to own everything. And they will eventually succeed.
"I don't like it anymore than you folks..." but that's just the way it is. And you can either stand your ground and fight, or go home.

Think also of chefs... They work for free for years, in order to get a name for themselves and gain experience and contacts, so that they can one day charge the big bucks.

Which chefs work for free? Unless you're talking about going to cooking school, they do get paid.

There are plenty. Most chefs in Europe (mainly France) will have to go and work for a well respected chef after school. For free. I am not talking about a chef that can flip hamburgers... but Michelin Star chefs.

And I would do exactly the same thing. If I had the level of playing needed, and someone like say... Keith Urban, offered me to come on the road, but I wouldn't get paid... I would take it in a heart beat. Or if it stood between me and another guitarist... I would undercut him to make sure that I got the gig.

Dude, I got what you meant, I'm born and raised in Germany and aware of the apprenticeship concept. But it isn't free, it's next to free, but is consider part of your schooling. Next step is journey man, where you make okay money, and then when you open your shop you have to be at master artisan level. All of this is union inspected...

As for the Urban thing, you do realize that unless you're Dann Huff pretty much every one will make the same for this gig, plus it's a union gig right?

I was just using the Urban thing as an example. I am sure its very regulated at that level. Although I am sure that all that will change in the future, as more and more people enter the game.
All I am saying is that if it can be done within the law... undercutting is fair game.

I don't know about more people entering. I don't think younger generations are as willing to do the couch tour these days.
In the end if any job isn't paying enough to make it worth the time of some one with the right skill set the pool of available guys will go bye-bye.

But I give you a different example I know enough guys who only play in their church band, and guess what...they get paid.

But to run with your concept...get a good gig for cut rate, and then move on to the next gig for more pay? Until some one else takes your gig because he's even willing to go lower? That also leaves that other folks you have to deal with, will not give you a recommendation for the gig, and you won't get your foot in the door to get any of those gigs.

 

[kasperjensen]

I don't see anything wrong with people undercutting if the situation calls for it.
That's the situation in all other business, and I don't see why music should be an exception.

By day I am in commercial real estate. I charge a certain price for my product, which is justified because it is a good product that people just can't find other places.
Many of my competitors are undercutting something rotten, some are even giving their shit away for free. But are all my customers running to them? No. Because I deliver a better product. Simple.
If however someone came along and offered the exact same product, in the same location, for half the price, I would have a problem. If that person could ride it long enough, I would be out, and he would just have doubled his business. Real shitty, but that's business.

It is no different for a band. If you can guarantee the venue $20.000 extra in their till the night you play, then it stands to good reason you can charge $10.000. (just an example)
Now, if there are 4 bands in your area that can generate the same amount of income for a venue, you got yourself a race. The one that wins that race, is the one who can effectively wipe out the other 3 bands. And you can do that by either generating more income for the venue by raising their turnover, or by reducing their costs. Or both.

Rant over.

So...same product, same location for free...that's ok then?
I have no issue with competition, but driving the wages down to free is BS.

Is it OK? I won't be the judge of that. But if someone wants my business then that is how they would do it. Once they have taken me out, they are sitting on all the honey, and can then chose to do business at whatever price they should so chose. Until someone else comes along, and the whole thing starts over again. And then you get conglomerates, who seek to own everything. And they will eventually succeed.
"I don't like it anymore than you folks..." but that's just the way it is. And you can either stand your ground and fight, or go home.

Think also of chefs... They work for free for years, in order to get a name for themselves and gain experience and contacts, so that they can one day charge the big bucks.

Which chefs work for free? Unless you're talking about going to cooking school, they do get paid.

There are plenty. Most chefs in Europe (mainly France) will have to go and work for a well respected chef after school. For free. I am not talking about a chef that can flip hamburgers... but Michelin Star chefs.

And I would do exactly the same thing. If I had the level of playing needed, and someone like say... Keith Urban, offered me to come on the road, but I wouldn't get paid... I would take it in a heart beat. Or if it stood between me and another guitarist... I would undercut him to make sure that I got the gig.

Dude, I got what you meant, I'm born and raised in Germany and aware of the apprenticeship concept. But it isn't free, it's next to free, but is consider part of your schooling. Next step is journey man, where you make okay money, and then when you open your shop you have to be at master artisan level. All of this is union inspected...

As for the Urban thing, you do realize that unless you're Dann Huff pretty much every one will make the same for this gig, plus it's a union gig right?

I was just using the Urban thing as an example. I am sure its very regulated at that level. Although I am sure that all that will change in the future, as more and more people enter the game.
All I am saying is that if it can be done within the law... undercutting is fair game.

I don't know about more people entering. I don't think younger generations are as willing to do the couch tour these days.
In the end if any job isn't paying enough to make it worth the time of some one with the right skill set the pool of available guys will go bye-bye.

But I give you a different example I know enough guys who only play in their church band, and guess what...they get paid.

But to run with your concept...get a good gig for cut rate, and then move on to the next gig for more pay? Until some one else takes your gig because he's even willing to go lower? That also leaves that other folks you have to deal with, will not give you a recommendation for the gig, and you won't get your foot in the door to get any of those gigs.

I see your point with the coming generation of players. I feel the new generations are expecting results, but with no sacrifice. Whereas my fathers generation, generally accept that if you want something, you gotta work long and hard for it.

As for guys only playing in their church band, and getting paid... Well they obviously got themselves a good product, at the appropriate price. That means long term work... great for them.

As for your last point, I can only agree. Any aggressive move towards your competitors, may have consequences in the future. But that's the trade-off.

 

[cloudnine]

As someone who's studying/playing a music that's essentially commercially unviable (jazz), I have no problem with taking other gigs to bring in cash. I just got one, in fact, a really prestigious one that'll land me tons of exposure and opportunities.

Trumpet playing at Medieval Times.

In all seriousness, it's not new to have to have a side gig of teaching/composing/jobbing. It's not like Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms were surviving on their music/performances alone. The entire concept of being able to survive solely on performance is a new phenomenon.

All the best musicians I know don't survive solely on performing. Most of them teach gigs at colleges to make their main dough. They've been doing it their whole lives, and they don't mind. All of them absolutely embrace education and teaching and describe it as a huge part of their musical lives.

Frankly, the people that survive on performing alone, the pop/rock stars - they don't really have a particularly long shelf life because of the nature of their music. Yeah it'd be nice to have 3-5 years of solid success, but what after? Myself, I'd rather be musically fulfilled with a livable amount of cash for 40 years than a pile of it for 3-5 and total obscurity and obsolescence thereafter.

And because they're generally sub-par musicians, they don't have many opportunities after the limelight fades. But I bet you the musicians - trained musicians - they hired to tour/record/write/produce their shit are still going strong, albeit less rich.

Ed, it's really sad to hear that about Joe Z. I guess the ~5 years of playing stadiums didn't translate into good money management. Still, I'm surprised he was that strapped to HAVE to go out on the road. Saw a video with him and Shorter the last time they played together before he died. Cool stuff.

 

[Shonuff]

I didn't edit it. It was in a different thread.
And I did say used to be that...in late 80s LA, you had to audition or you had to get hired on a Union gig, Any of the Washington unions...just pay your dues.
Just looked up what's the deal nowadays, and nope...no auditions any more.

As for Joe Z, nope no links my info comes from friends of mine that played on that tour with him. And yes I too thought that Joe Z was wealthy...

I have been a member of 802 since the 80's and there were never any auditions involved, you can even be a non member play on union recording dates and be paid through the union as long as you pay a check processing fee.

I never said Joe Zawinul was wealthy I said he did very well over the years particularly for a jazz musician and he was on the road at the end because he chose to be.
From his own site: http://www.zawinulmusic.com/biography

Joe’s final album, 75, was recorded live with the Syndicate on his 75th birthday at Lugano, Switzerland. By then, Joe was suffering from the effects of terminal cancer. His wife, Maxine, was also critically ill and passed away later that month. Yet, the performance is filled with the raw energy and creativity that were the hallmarks of Joe’s music. Later in his life Joe was sometimes asked why he was still on the road. He seemed almost incredulous at the question, responding with words to the effect that as a musician, music was life. Being on the road, performing with the band–that was Joe’s life. And he did it right to the end. Two months later, he died in Vienna, on September 11, 2007.

 

[Rogue]

Frankly, the people that survive on performing alone, the pop/rock stars - they don't really have a particularly long shelf life because of the nature of their music. Yeah it'd be nice to have 3-5 years of solid success, but what after? Myself, I'd rather be musically fulfilled with a livable amount of cash for 40 years than a pile of it for 3-5 and total obscurity and obsolescence thereafter.

I envy Steve Vai. He had a small base before DLR, but it was DLR that really got his name out there. Today, he has his own label, has enough fans to release new cds and tour, has his endorsements...a very comfortable living. And he writes and plays what he wants to and only has to satisfy himself.

Certainly, he was given a spotlight that few people ever get the chance of, but he did everything right after that to where he didn't need anyone else.

The best way to make money in this business (or should I say career) isn't about being a band...it's about being a brand. That pretty much goes for anything.

 

[Rogue]

But to run with your concept...get a good gig for cut rate, and then move on to the next gig for more pay? Until some one else takes your gig because he's even willing to go lower? That also leaves that other folks you have to deal with, will not give you a recommendation for the gig, and you won't get your foot in the door to get any of those gigs.

If your band is in demand, then you'll get paid as opposed to bypassed for a band willing to take less.

If there are two brands of apples, A and B, A costs .10 and B costs 1.00, but B is a much better apple than A, people will still buy B apples. Mercedes, Porche, Ferraris....Bogners, SLOs...I mean hell, this list is LONG. People will pay the higher dollar when something is demand.

If you're drawing in more people then you get negotiate the price. If not, the owner will take the cheaper of the two if there is no difference in demand. Why wouldn't he?

 

[degenaro]

I didn't edit it. It was in a different thread.
And I did say used to be that...in late 80s LA, you had to audition or you had to get hired on a Union gig, Any of the Washington unions...just pay your dues.
Just looked up what's the deal nowadays, and nope...no auditions any more.

As for Joe Z, nope no links my info comes from friends of mine that played on that tour with him. And yes I too thought that Joe Z was wealthy...

I have been a member of 802 since the 80's and there were never any auditions involved, you can even be a non member play on union recording dates and be paid through the union as long as you pay a check processing fee.

I never said Joe Zawinul was wealthy I said he did very well over the years particularly for a jazz musician and he was on the road at the end because he chose to be.
From his own site: http://www.zawinulmusic.com/biography

Joe’s final album, 75, was recorded live with the Syndicate on his 75th birthday at Lugano, Switzerland. By then, Joe was suffering from the effects of terminal cancer. His wife, Maxine, was also critically ill and passed away later that month. Yet, the performance is filled with the raw energy and creativity that were the hallmarks of Joe’s music. Later in his life Joe was sometimes asked why he was still on the road. He seemed almost incredulous at the question, responding with words to the effect that as a musician, music was life. Being on the road, performing with the band–that was Joe’s life. And he did it right to the end. Two months later, he died in Vienna, on September 11, 2007.

Look in what you quoted of what I said...

... or you had to get hired on a Union gig
Right, you play a Union gig and in order to get paid you pay your dues. Again late 80s LA auditions, not sure what you want me to tell you.

As for Zawinul, I didn't say you said he was wealthy, I said I was under the impression until talking with folks that played for him.

 

[degenaro]

But to run with your concept...get a good gig for cut rate, and then move on to the next gig for more pay? Until some one else takes your gig because he's even willing to go lower? That also leaves that other folks you have to deal with, will not give you a recommendation for the gig, and you won't get your foot in the door to get any of those gigs.

If your band is in demand, then you'll get paid as opposed to bypassed for a band willing to take less.

If there are two brands of apples, A and B, A costs .10 and B costs 1.00, but B is a much better apple than A, people will still buy B apples. Mercedes, Porche, Ferraris....Bogners, SLOs...I mean hell, this list is LONG. People will pay the higher dollar when something is demand.

If you're drawing in more people then you get negotiate the price. If not, the owner will take the cheaper of the two if there is no difference in demand. Why wouldn't he?

Not so, I gave a concrete example earlier. We used to play this place in Seattle for the door...made 2500 a gig, the place was jam packed. They made bank on liquor sales. TAfter I left Seattle they changed to 700 bucks fixed pay. The place is less packed now, with bands that draw less, and obviously less liquor sales...

 

[RedB4Black]

Tell you what, and SUhr touched on to it...get a Rhapsoday subscription, it's 15 buncks a month to stream any of their stuff. And the artist get o.oo67$ in other words 2/3 a penny per play per tune, that model to me makes perfect sense. Pay for subscription and split those monies by usage.

Better yet. Napster. I've been a subscriber for over 3 years now. I used to pay 9.95 a month. Now I pay $15 every three months and I get 15 "free" mp3 down loads for anything I want.

 

[Rogue]

Not so, I gave a concrete example earlier. We used to play this place in Seattle for the door...made 2500 a gig, the place was jam packed. They made bank on liquor sales. TAfter I left Seattle they changed to 700 bucks fixed pay. The place is less packed now, with bands that draw less, and obviously less liquor sales...

If their business results in less profit because of this decision, that is on them. If you could draw enough people that they would increase their sales substantially then you can negotiate higher pay than 700. If they are uninterested in that, that is their business and I would suppose they have their reasons, but it would stand to reason they would go the route of more profit. Perhaps there are other liabilities? I don't know.

But let's use an extreme example to illustrate the point. I don't know what kind of music the indigenous people prefer there, let's say blues for the sake of argument.....do you believe they'd pay, say Eric Clapton, more than $700 to play there? It's a no brainer....but the concept is demand.

 

[brain21]

We're not talking about some one with a day gig that plays music for fun and something might happen..or not. We're talking about serious Jazz heavy weight guys who have to teach to eat.

Jazz btw amounts for about 2% of all sales, and off those 2 percent 1 1/2 are Kenny G.

And I see it every time go to the Tater, you have the guys that are just burning, and they play in front of 50 folks (at best).

Congrats, you just defined a "niche market" - Jazz has been a niche market since about the mid to late 1950's. It looks like iTunes and their 2% is simply reflecting that. You gotta understand that just cause everyone you hang out with at work and on the forums digs Steve Vai, thats (guitar virtuoso) still a REALLY small piece of the overall market. Thats just the way it is. :-(

 

[brain21]

Because of pirating Concert tickets have jump into the 100s if not 1000s for good tickets.

Not true. The retarded concert prices started with the Eagles. At that time they erally were not losing any money due to pirating. Napster, etc. wasn't even around.

They made a bunch of money because people would pay that stupid amt of $$ for a band like the Eagles. Then others (Madonna, etc.) started picking up on it. Now these groups had already made their millions. I don't think Madonna is hurting for cash. But she charges outrageous prices. More and more bands pick up on this. Shit last time Rush came to town I think the cheap seats were like $80!!!! WTF?!? I like Rush, and I've seen them a bunch of times live. I would go see them every tour. But not for $80 for a crappy seat!

Up until VERY recently, the bands that were charging outrageous prices were the ones that were NOT hurting for cash! Now its becoming a case where almost everyone is charging ridiculous prices. :-(

 

[brain21]

Things have changed forever. Just wonder whats next ?

Licensing fee's on Tribute bands??
Royalty fee's for Cover/Top 40 bands?

There was a lot of lawsuit talk last year regarding music on Juke boxes and the places they are in too..

A couple of years ago there was a story in the local news. A BMI rep (actually a few over a period of a couple of weeks) were going through the stores and restaurants in a trendy part of town, and telling the people that they couldn't play the music over the PA system (instore) that they were playing, because they hadn't paid royalties on them, and BMI was threatening lawsuits against these stores.

In one case the store was using a paid system to pump music in (IOW, all fees HAD been paid in the service cost) and the ignorant BMI either didn't care or didn't understand.

In another case the BMI guy went into a pizza joint and told them to turn off the music immediately or he would get an injunction filed against them. One of the cooks informed the BMI rep that the music playing was music from his own, local, unsigned band. He explained that he was not a member of BMI, and that the pizza place had permission from him and his band to play the music (in fact, they brought it in and asked for it to be played). The BMI rep didn't care and continued to threaten them. The guys in the pizza place essentially told the BMI guy to go F himself and dared him to try to file an injunction, and they threatened to counter-sue for harassment. Then they asked him to leave.

He left, and BMI never filed squat.

Attempting to charge fees for coverbands, etc. isn't so far-fetched...

 

[brain21]

Just because you're having fun as a weekend warrior does not mean that working guys should not be able to make their living.

I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at here. Your offshoring I don't think is a good argument. Offshoring operates under the assumption that the same work and same results come out, for a cheaper price.

Are you saying that touring acts are exactly like a weekend warrior in terms of quality, skills, & repertiore?

For original acts, people go to see a band because of whatever it is that makes that band unique. So one band does not equate to another. Our originality is, or at least is part of your differentiator. For cover bands, it largely depends on the material covered. If you are a touring cover band, or even a local one, you may have to COMPETE for gigs. If 1 band is free and pulls in $500 for the bar, thats $500 profit. If another costs the bar $500 and pulls in $2000, thats 3 times the profit. So the bar will pay. So what do you do to compete? Change your repertoire, offer a better show, whatever.

If you're getting at local bands in an original music scene (trying to get somewhere or make a career out of their music) that play for free, well I wouldn't call them weekend warriors.

Am I missing your point?

 

[cloudnine]

As far as I know any venue that has musicians who play other people's tunes have to pay a flat yearly fee to ASCAP, I think.

 

[brain21]

as far as I'm concerned, artistic music is disappearing. Classical music these days = film scores
I hate film
I believe it has ruined music
music exists to serve as a background for pretty faces pretending to do things on screen

I don't know if it has necessarily ruined music. I really like a lot of the stuff that Hans Zimmer does. I remember seeing Black Hawk Down in the theater and immediately leaving the theater and going to the record store and buying the soundtrack on my way home.

You say music serves the screen. yes thats true, but a long time ago, music served a libretto and stage too...

I don't think Verdi or Mozart were uncreative

 

[brain21]

I totally agree. I haven't bought a CD since 1999. As a storage medium they totally suck. They're cumbersome and annoying to deal with, they scratch up, and eventually stop working and then what do you have? A $20 beer coaster that's what. Give me digital music on my home webserver that I can get to from anywhere I have a web browser (phone, ipod touch, laptop, etc...), and doesn't degrade over time.

Fuck a CD. Give me digital music I can do whatever I want with and keep the beer coasters for yourself.

I'd rather have both. Buy a CD and then rip it to my server.

If its only on a server, an accidental rm -rf /* can cause you to lose everything . So can a lightning strike in your area. If you have a Raid0 server, hope you don't lose a drive! If its not RAID, hope you don't lose a drive!

Music/data is FAR more volatile and less permanent in a digital medium than on CD. And a CD offers better audio quality than what any of the legit, and most of the pirate sites offer. If I buy a CD I can have my cake and eat it too.