Scott Henderson Sounds off on Internet/Music Business

[Shonuff]

As far as stealing goes I believe it is about the only wrong. I see rape and murder as only stealing. So I guess if someone or anyone else has raped or killed someone or anyone it is alright for me to rape and murder people in your family ? Stealing no matter how it is done puts you in this group.

You equate rape and murder with kids downloading mp3's? So by that logic if you stretch the truth slightly on your tax return by taking advantage of the same loopholes everyone else does you are a rapist? You have honestly never tweaked your tax return just a little?

I wish Scott Henderson all the best, he is brilliant and I will gladly continue to buy his discs and support him , plus mp3's sound like shit and I am old school I like liner notes and cover art, but the truth is there is a whole new generation of listeners out there that play by different rules, they grew up not having to pay for music and none of their friends do either, perhaps that doesn't make it right but it makes it an inevitable truth that the game has changed.

 

[stephen sawall]

As far as stealing goes I believe it is about the only wrong. I see rape and murder as only stealing. So I guess if someone or anyone else has raped or killed someone or anyone it is alright for me to rape and murder people in your family ? Stealing no matter how it is done puts you in this group.

You equate rape and murder with kids downloading mp3's? So by that logic if you stretch the truth slightly on your tax return by taking advantage of the same loopholes everyone else does you are a rapist? You have honestly never tweaked your tax return just a little?

Not kids ..... anyone. Stealing is stealing no matter how it is done. It does not matter what it is or how much. Stealing, rape and murder are all pretty much the same as far as I can tell. All of them require someone to take something that is not theirs.

Does a life have more value than a MP3 ...... in most cases yes. That does not change what stealing is. The last thing / time I took something that was not mine was a candy bar when I was 6. I have never and would never cheat on taxes or anything else. I suppose some think "half truths" and "white lies" are not lies. It is all only a deception.
For me right and wrong is not a floating line. Either it is wrong or not.

 

[Strat+Marshall]

Fair enough, but take a look at what happens around here at the suggestion that Rock is dead...
How many musos do you know that don't support other musos? I refer to as friend rock, I have friends play out...I go to see them, and pay.

Good point.

I've played a few (very few) 'multi-band' gigs where the other bands went as far as to take all their friends and leave after their set. Then they wonder why there is no 'scene'.

The 2 dozen or so guys who do what we do, in this area, understand that a RISING TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS, and make effort to support other bands (and pay). We show up at each other's gigs when we can, and support new bands, and recruit our fans to go with us. Of course, I'm not talking about 'high-art' here. I'm talking about rock-bar party bands. But I think the sentiment still holds.

Bands supporting other bands is a joke in itself. I have been to and played way too many shows where 90% of the crowd is close friends/girlfriends of the bands playing. The worst part is when all the players from the various bands go around between sets and after the show and give each other superficial handjobs to prop each others egos up. I understand when a band is just starting out they need to draw as many people as possible to get back in the club but when a band has been around for a year or more and still needs "support" they should just hang it up. If I know a player, I will go see them a time or two, if they mix it up and do something interesting maybe more. However, if it is a stale POS band that does the same thing over and over I will not be back.

 

[Anonymous]

Stealing, rape and murder are all pretty much the same as far as I can tell.

While I understand the analogy you are trying to make, the magnitude of the crimes are completely different. You wouldn't sentence a person to die by lethal injection for illegal downloading, would you? You certainly might consider that punishment for mutiple, brutal murders... Let's keep a bit of reality in this discussion...

Steve

 

[stephen sawall]

My point was right and wrong is only that. A lot of people live their life's where anything they can get away with is OK. In China and some other places you well be killed for stealing. What it is or how much has little to do with it. In most of the world it was all that way at one time.

In the US a lot of people have been killed for stealing cattle and other things. How is this different ? It is not. I guess the real question is why do people feel it is OK to steal ?

 

[MOAAH]

As far as stealing goes I believe it is about the only wrong. I see rape and murder as only stealing. So I guess if someone or anyone else has raped or killed someone or anyone it is alright for me to rape and murder people in your family ? Stealing no matter how it is done puts you in this group.

You equate rape and murder with kids downloading mp3's? So by that logic if you stretch the truth slightly on your tax return by taking advantage of the same loopholes everyone else does you are a rapist? You have honestly never tweaked your tax return just a little?

Not kids ..... anyone. Stealing is stealing no matter how it is done. It does not matter what it is or how much. Stealing, rape and murder are all pretty much the same as far as I can tell. All of them require someone to take something that is not theirs.

Does a life have more value than a MP3 ...... in most cases yes. That does not change what stealing is. The last thing / time I took something that was not mine was a candy bar when I was 6. I have never and would never cheat on taxes or anything else. I suppose some think "half truths" and "white lies" are not lies. It is all only a deception.
For me right and wrong is not a floating line. Either it is wrong or not.

You my friend, are a very rare person.
I wish I could say I never cheated at anything since I was 6.
Well, I could say it, but that would be a lie

 

[stephen sawall]

It's not like I am sin free ..... but I do make a effort not too. I am sure a few of the women from my past would laugh at me for even suggesting I never have "cheated".

 

[Anonymous]

My point was right and wrong is only that. A lot of people live their life's where anything they can get away with is OK. In China and some other places you well be killed for stealing. What it is or how much has little to do with it. In most of the world it was all that way at one time.

In the US a lot of people have been killed for stealing cattle and other things. How is this different ? It is not. I guess the real question is why do people feel it is OK to steal ?

I agree that there is right and wrong, period, however, do you think it is just to kill someone for downloading a song? I don't understand why you are bringing up that China or anywhere else kills people for stealing as if that proves your point... There are different degrees of wrongdoing. Just because downloading a song and killing someone are both "stealing", they are not the same... I assume you are not arguing that...

Steve

 

[MOAAH]

It's not like I am sin free ..... but I do make a effort not too. I am sure a few of the women from my past would laugh at me for even suggesting I never have "cheated".

Oh thank goodness.
I was afraid I'd have to start calling you Saint Stephen.

 

[stephen sawall]

No I would not kill for that. What I am saying is death for stealing is common practice in some places and things here have changed here because many now view this behavior and other "wrongs" as OK because they get away with it and others do.

Sure killing and stealing MP3 are on far ends of the scale. But it is the same scale. These people are taking something that is not theirs.

 

[stephen sawall]

It's not like I am sin free ..... but I do make a effort not too. I am sure a few of the women from my past would laugh at me for even suggesting I never have "cheated".

Oh thank goodness.
I was afraid I'd have to start calling you Saint Stephen.

I like the title Czar Stephen the Great better.

 

[MOAAH]

It's not like I am sin free ..... but I do make a effort not too. I am sure a few of the women from my past would laugh at me for even suggesting I never have "cheated".

Oh thank goodness.
I was afraid I'd have to start calling you Saint Stephen.

I like the title Czar Stephen the Great better.

Oh my, you've been maybe listening to those lefties too much

 

[stephen sawall]

You know I never take the left or right very serious or up or down as far as that goes.

 

[MOAAH]

You know I never take the left or right very serious or up or down as far as that goes.

Yes I do, and you know I was only joking and never take anything too serious.
Well almost anything

 

[kasperjensen]

I don't see anything wrong with people undercutting if the situation calls for it.
That's the situation in all other business, and I don't see why music should be an exception.

By day I am in commercial real estate. I charge a certain price for my product, which is justified because it is a good product that people just can't find other places.
Many of my competitors are undercutting something rotten, some are even giving their shit away for free. But are all my customers running to them? No. Because I deliver a better product. Simple.
If however someone came along and offered the exact same product, in the same location, for half the price, I would have a problem. If that person could ride it long enough, I would be out, and he would just have doubled his business. Real shitty, but that's business.

It is no different for a band. If you can guarantee the venue $20.000 extra in their till the night you play, then it stands to good reason you can charge $10.000. (just an example)
Now, if there are 4 bands in your area that can generate the same amount of income for a venue, you got yourself a race. The one that wins that race, is the one who can effectively wipe out the other 3 bands. And you can do that by either generating more income for the venue by raising their turnover, or by reducing their costs. Or both.

Rant over.

So...same product, same location for free...that's ok then?
I have no issue with competition, but driving the wages down to free is BS.

Is it OK? I won't be the judge of that. But if someone wants my business then that is how they would do it. Once they have taken me out, they are sitting on all the honey, and can then chose to do business at whatever price they should so chose. Until someone else comes along, and the whole thing starts over again. And then you get conglomerates, who seek to own everything. And they will eventually succeed.
"I don't like it anymore than you folks..." but that's just the way it is. And you can either stand your ground and fight, or go home.

Think also of chefs... They work for free for years, in order to get a name for themselves and gain experience and contacts, so that they can one day charge the big bucks.

Which chefs work for free? Unless you're talking about going to cooking school, they do get paid.

There are plenty. Most chefs in Europe (mainly France) will have to go and work for a well respected chef after school. For free. I am not talking about a chef that can flip hamburgers... but Michelin Star chefs.

And I would do exactly the same thing. If I had the level of playing needed, and someone like say... Keith Urban, offered me to come on the road, but I wouldn't get paid... I would take it in a heart beat. Or if it stood between me and another guitarist... I would undercut him to make sure that I got the gig.

 

[kasperjensen]

Unfortunately with music you don't need training or schooling to go out and compete for time and money in the professional arena. It's art, there are no rules. Unlike many of the bad correlations being made here to other industries, like Real Estate. It makes me glad I no longer pursue making a living in a band as I never did come close in the first place and just doing music for fun is all I can handle in my 39, over the hill, state. Plus my day gig pays pretty good and I'm too old to go for long drives in close quarters for no reward anymore. Now any yahoo with a PC and $200 interface can "release" product. How is a potential consumer meant to find real art/talent amongst this sea of MySpace minutia.

Plus having to deal with the utterly self absorbed, work ethically challenged tools called musicians I knew over the years is not something I miss.

How is that a bad correlation? Do you think we have rules for what we can or can't do to our competitors? Do you think that I have a degree in commercial real estate? It doesnt matter what industry it is... It's all about delivering the best product, and the best price. Or at a price that can easily be justified. Same with music.

 

[Shonuff]

My point is when you have guys like Joe Zawinul (may he rest in piece) who has to go on the road even though he's to ill to do so...there is something wrong with how we take care of artists. The union having rendered largely useless due to guys working for free should be taking care of members that kept the Union alive for 5 = decades. But without funds...how can they.

Do you have a link or any facts to back up that statement about Zawinul? I was always under the impression that Joe Zawinul did very well financially over the course of his career particularly for a jazz musician and continued to tour when he was ill because that is how he defined his life, not because he had to for financial reasons.

Also I am happy to see you edited the bit about having to audition for the musicians Union out of your post, because that was news to me.

 

[skoora]

Unfortunately with music you don't need training or schooling to go out and compete for time and money in the professional arena. It's art, there are no rules. Unlike many of the bad correlations being made here to other industries, like Real Estate. It makes me glad I no longer pursue making a living in a band as I never did come close in the first place and just doing music for fun is all I can handle in my 39, over the hill, state. Plus my day gig pays pretty good and I'm too old to go for long drives in close quarters for no reward anymore. Now any yahoo with a PC and $200 interface can "release" product. How is a potential consumer meant to find real art/talent amongst this sea of MySpace minutia.

Plus having to deal with the utterly self absorbed, work ethically challenged tools called musicians I knew over the years is not something I miss.

How is that a bad correlation? Do you think we have rules for what we can or can't do to our competitors? Do you think that I have a degree in commercial real estate? It doesnt matter what industry it is... It's all about delivering the best product, and the best price. Or at a price that can easily be justified. Same with music.

Don't you at least need a real estate license? There's a big difference beteen an industry like real estate and music where anyone who decides to buy a guitar or "saxaphone" can immediately try and step into the same arena as a seasoned professional. I'm not sayin' there aren't freshly licensed hacks doing real estate but at least they had to study a little to get a license...or don't you have to anymore?

Plus I think it's well established that a pro's best attempts at making money are either live performance or some form of merchandising, usually sold at that show. So I guess if the "best price" for delivering that performance is free then I guess they must be screwed.

But I also agree with the it is the way it is as far as DL goes and cryin' about the old days before DL are useless. Have to adapt if possible. Ultimately I don't care because I'm not trying to do that anymore in my life. But it also might be why I can't find a decent new rock record anymore too.

 

[degenaro]

My point is when you have guys like Joe Zawinul (may he rest in piece) who has to go on the road even though he's to ill to do so...there is something wrong with how we take care of artists. The union having rendered largely useless due to guys working for free should be taking care of members that kept the Union alive for 5 = decades. But without funds...how can they.

Do you have a link or any facts to back up that statement about Zawinul? I was always under the impression that Joe Zawinul did very well financially over the course of his career particularly for a jazz musician and continued to tour when he was ill because that is how he defined his life, not because he had to for financial reasons.

Also I am happy to see you edited the bit about having to audition for the musicians Union out of your post, because that was news to me.

I didn't edit it. It was in a different thread.
And I did say used to be that...in late 80s LA, you had to audition or you had to get hired on a Union gig, Any of the Washington unions...just pay your dues.
Just looked up what's the deal nowadays, and nope...no auditions any more.

As for Joe Z, nope no links my info comes from friends of mine that played on that tour with him. And yes I too thought that Joe Z was wealthy...

 

[degenaro]

I don't see anything wrong with people undercutting if the situation calls for it.
That's the situation in all other business, and I don't see why music should be an exception.

By day I am in commercial real estate. I charge a certain price for my product, which is justified because it is a good product that people just can't find other places.
Many of my competitors are undercutting something rotten, some are even giving their shit away for free. But are all my customers running to them? No. Because I deliver a better product. Simple.
If however someone came along and offered the exact same product, in the same location, for half the price, I would have a problem. If that person could ride it long enough, I would be out, and he would just have doubled his business. Real shitty, but that's business.

It is no different for a band. If you can guarantee the venue $20.000 extra in their till the night you play, then it stands to good reason you can charge $10.000. (just an example)
Now, if there are 4 bands in your area that can generate the same amount of income for a venue, you got yourself a race. The one that wins that race, is the one who can effectively wipe out the other 3 bands. And you can do that by either generating more income for the venue by raising their turnover, or by reducing their costs. Or both.

Rant over.

So...same product, same location for free...that's ok then?
I have no issue with competition, but driving the wages down to free is BS.

Is it OK? I won't be the judge of that. But if someone wants my business then that is how they would do it. Once they have taken me out, they are sitting on all the honey, and can then chose to do business at whatever price they should so chose. Until someone else comes along, and the whole thing starts over again. And then you get conglomerates, who seek to own everything. And they will eventually succeed.
"I don't like it anymore than you folks..." but that's just the way it is. And you can either stand your ground and fight, or go home.

Think also of chefs... They work for free for years, in order to get a name for themselves and gain experience and contacts, so that they can one day charge the big bucks.

Which chefs work for free? Unless you're talking about going to cooking school, they do get paid.

There are plenty. Most chefs in Europe (mainly France) will have to go and work for a well respected chef after school. For free. I am not talking about a chef that can flip hamburgers... but Michelin Star chefs.

And I would do exactly the same thing. If I had the level of playing needed, and someone like say... Keith Urban, offered me to come on the road, but I wouldn't get paid... I would take it in a heart beat. Or if it stood between me and another guitarist... I would undercut him to make sure that I got the gig.

Dude, I got what you meant, I'm born and raised in Germany and aware of the apprenticeship concept. But it isn't free, it's next to free, but is consider part of your schooling. Next step is journey man, where you make okay money, and then when you open your shop you have to be at master artisan level. All of this is union inspected...

As for the Urban thing, you do realize that unless you're Dann Huff pretty much every one will make the same for this gig, plus it's a union gig right?