Should I be upset? VIDEOS ADDED

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mr. Willy
  • Start date Start date
I have some friends who are good players in Nashville and will share this info with them. Hopefully...they can spread it to a "conservative guesstimate of 900-1100" (which apparently means 1800+) others in the area.

http://www.ntlguitar.com/
 
Here’s some more pics of the back of the guitar. You can see clear to the mahogany in spots. These massive chips though! What a total crap job. I’m going to hit Glasser up in a few days and see if he’ll fix this mess for me.
 

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If everything you are saying is true, then maybe this muskat should pay Glasser to fix it for you :yes:
 
Wow. On top of everything else, those chips are the icing on the cake, Mr. Willy.

Unbelievable. :doh:
 
Man that sucks that this was such a big job for you and it got fubar'd. Glaser should be able to fix it up but would he need to do anything to the top?

Nice choice on the color/theme, from a distance it looks killer.
 
This guy is a ghost now. Took my money and never looked back.
 
This is why Historic Makeovers exists I assume. Their work looks to be second to none, and probably would have cost you about the same or a little more money but would have been perfect. Not sure if they do frets though...
 
SpiderWars":39gz650h said:
Man that sucks that this was such a big job for you and it got fubar'd. Glaser should be able to fix it up but would he need to do anything to the top?

Nice choice on the color/theme, from a distance it looks killer.

Thanks on the look. He did nail the look I was going for.

I’d need Glaser to fix that one dip on the top. It’s the sides and back of the guitar that are a crap show. I’d need him to fix the fret board too. Remove all the file/razor marks. I played it more last night, and I pretty sure I have high frets on the low E around the 8th-10th fret. Got a lot of buzz. I may need to have to have a total re-fret. I don’t know how someone would fix the fretboard otherwise.
 
I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.
 
Mr. Willy":1b5nfq6j said:
I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.
You need to reverse the charges immediately. Or go to your bank and claw back the money. This guy’s a thief.
 
Mr. Willy":39pm94fo said:
I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.
WTF? I'd do a racer says, and file a chargeback with you CC company. If you're satisfied with the fret job, deduct $350.00 from the bill. I think that's what fret jobs go for these days? You can go for the entire bill, of course.

If I may... What year model is this? Do you have pics of what it looked like before? Just curious.
 
Yes, I have pics of what is was like before. They’re not incredibly detailed. I’ll post what I have later when I get off work.

It’s 1975 model. Made in Kamazoo. She used to look very close to Randy Rhoads’s LPC. I took most of the finish off my sanding at various times. I told him all this. I was not expecting absolute perfection, but for what I paid, it’s not to par, by a long shot.

I have some YouTube videos of her I can dig up for now:







I realize those aren’t up close, but it’s the best I can do for now. He did a good job filling the mini toggle holes and the holes from the original tuners in the back of the headstock. I’ll give him credit wherever it is due.

But for what I paid, I don’t consider the job satisfactory.
 
Mr. Willy":1mnfcku1 said:
I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.

I'm a long time lurker and your thread motivated me to register so I could share my thoughts on what went wrong. I had a superstrat style guitar completely refinished about 20 years ago. It was the first nice guitar I owned and had alot of sentimental value, although not as much cash value as your LP. I had done some work on it previously, had tinkered with it, altered the finish. It had been leveled many times, needed a refret, and the maple board was scarred and marked up by thousands of hours of playing.

Like you, I wasn't completely happy with the outcome. But I understood that based on the condition I gave it to him, it wouldn't come back as new. (And I only spent 600 on a refret and refinish, which I thought was a fair deal, probably close to 1000 in today's dollars, and very close to what I paid for the guitar new.) I had removed the thick poly factory finish with the expectation that I'd refinish it myself, but I didn't have the tools or skill to do a good job, so I gave the unfinished project to him to finish.

My objective here is to help moderate your emotions so you can find a middle ground and enjoy your guitar again.

I want to be supportive, and I agree the work isn't the best (or at least wouldn't meet my expectations if I was expecting a "new" looking guitar), but there are a few things that stand out in your correspondence.

The thing that you kept saying is that you wanted the guitar "to look as good as it can". And in his invoice he referred to it as "aged" look. So its clear to me that in the original dialogue, there was an acknowledgement that it wouldn't be perfect. And it seems that he took on the job with that understanding (and perhaps used that as justification to cut some corners). IMO, if you wanted it to look like a mint frampton guitar, you should have used dialogue to that effect. That may have altered his quote, or it may have given him pause to even do the work at all.

I'm saying this not to inflame, but reading the correspondence, it sounds to me like on the front side of the transaction, you were laid back and said "make it look as good as it can (I know its in bad shape)" and on the back side of the transaction you got very particular about it. And I'm not saying that you're wrong to do this, because the quote nearly doubled.

What I can relay about my own refinished guitar is that when it came back, it did not sound as good as it did before (or at least not the same). I had removed the thick factory poly finish and when they refinished it, the guitar had a "lighter/warmer" tone. Additionally, some of the wood grain indentations were showing through the new finish (like an old Fender might), so it didn't have that new/perfect "spaceship" look like many superstrats.

It may be that the finishing approach that he took on your guitar was historically accurate, the exact finishing technique used on new LPs of that era, but because the wood had been exposed, as he said, there ended up being imperfections in the final finish. In his mind this probably fell under "make it look as good as it can".

The alternative to this approach, to fill every imperfection, spray it with primer, sand, spray, sand, spray, etc could have made the guitar look "perfect", but would have been a different technique that was not historically accurate and that (more importantly) would have altered the tone of your instrument. And it might also have added additional labor.

The other thing that stands out to me, (that in hindsight I think you will agree would have been a better way to handle this), was that you went to the forums for feedback on the work instead of contacting other luthiers to get their take. It may be that another luthier could have looked at this and confirmed that it is bad work, or at least explained why it came out the way it did, based on the original requirements. Armed with that information, you would be better prepared to argue your case with the original luthier or credit card company.

The most important thing is for you to enjoy your guitar again. I would point out that if it still has the same great sound, that is something in itself; refinishing can definitely change the sound. If it came back "perfect" he may have had to use a different technique, sprayed more coats, and that could have changed the tone and even made it look "incorrect" in other ways.

Regarding the file marks on the board, I didn't see anything in the original invoice about re-radiusing the neck. I wasn't able to match up the photos you provided to see if there was an A/B difference proving that he was responsible for file marks. I will just have to believe you that they weren't there before. If they are just tool marks from crowning/leveling and if it bothers you, I think you could get them worked out for a minimal fee with another luthier. I don't think there is any chance of getting the original guy to sand them out at this point.

Good luck, I hope you can get to a place where you enjoy the guitar again.
 
Mr. Willy":77kpbba8 said:
Yes, I have pics of what is was like before. They’re not incredibly detailed. I’ll post what I have later when I get off work.

It’s 1975 model. Made in Kamazoo. She used to look very close to Randy Rhoads’s LPC. I took most of the finish off my sanding at various times. I told him all this. I was not expecting absolute perfection, but for what I paid, it’s not to par, by a long shot.

I have some YouTube videos of her I can dig up for now:







I realize those aren’t up close, but it’s the best I can do for now. He did a good job filling the mini toggle holes and the holes from the original tuners in the back of the headstock. I’ll give him credit wherever it is due.

But for what I paid, I don’t consider the job satisfactory.
Nice! Since you were getting a refinish done anyway, did you not consider filling the Nashville bridge posts with dowl rods, and converting the bridge to ABR-1? It's an excellent upgrade, and really helps bring-out the overtones. If you let anyone else work on it, check with Doug Montgomery at Guitar Factory in Orlando, FL. He does all of Pat Travers guitar work, along with work for Kirk Hammett, Rick Derringer, Warren Haynes, and many others. If you need electronics work done, Billy Fels is the best!

http://www.guitarfactory.us/
https://www.yelp.com/biz/guitar-factory-orlando
 
That was a crap job all around. Next time send it to Joe Glaser or Gruhn's in Nashville. You probably would have paid less.

I would have left in in natural. Remind's me of Billy Duffy's LP Custom.

Ed
 
void pig":p2immnt2 said:
Mr. Willy":p2immnt2 said:
I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.

I'm a long time lurker and your thread motivated me to register so I could share my thoughts on what went wrong. I had a superstrat style guitar completely refinished about 20 years ago. It was the first nice guitar I owned and had alot of sentimental value, although not as much cash value as your LP. I had done some work on it previously, had tinkered with it, altered the finish. It had been leveled many times, needed a refret, and the maple board was scarred and marked up by thousands of hours of playing.

Like you, I wasn't completely happy with the outcome. But I understood that based on the condition I gave it to him, it wouldn't come back as new. (And I only spent 600 on a refret and refinish, which I thought was a fair deal, probably close to 1000 in today's dollars, and very close to what I paid for the guitar new.) I had removed the thick poly factory finish with the expectation that I'd refinish it myself, but I didn't have the tools or skill to do a good job, so I gave the unfinished project to him to finish.

My objective here is to help moderate your emotions so you can find a middle ground and enjoy your guitar again.

I want to be supportive, and I agree the work isn't the best (or at least wouldn't meet my expectations if I was expecting a "new" looking guitar), but there are a few things that stand out in your correspondence.

The thing that you kept saying is that you wanted the guitar "to look as good as it can". And in his invoice he referred to it as "aged" look. So its clear to me that in the original dialogue, there was an acknowledgement that it wouldn't be perfect. And it seems that he took on the job with that understanding (and perhaps used that as justification to cut some corners). IMO, if you wanted it to look like a mint frampton guitar, you should have used dialogue to that effect. That may have altered his quote, or it may have given him pause to even do the work at all.

I'm saying this not to inflame, but reading the correspondence, it sounds to me like on the front side of the transaction, you were laid back and said "make it look as good as it can (I know its in bad shape)" and on the back side of the transaction you got very particular about it. And I'm not saying that you're wrong to do this, because the quote nearly doubled.

What I can relay about my own refinished guitar is that when it came back, it did not sound as good as it did before (or at least not the same). I had removed the thick factory poly finish and when they refinished it, the guitar had a "lighter/warmer" tone. Additionally, some of the wood grain indentations were showing through the new finish (like an old Fender might), so it didn't have that new/perfect "spaceship" look like many superstrats.

It may be that the finishing approach that he took on your guitar was historically accurate, the exact finishing technique used on new LPs of that era, but because the wood had been exposed, as he said, there ended up being imperfections in the final finish. In his mind this probably fell under "make it look as good as it can".

The alternative to this approach, to fill every imperfection, spray it with primer, sand, spray, sand, spray, etc could have made the guitar look "perfect", but would have been a different technique that was not historically accurate and that (more importantly) would have altered the tone of your instrument. And it might also have added additional labor.

The other thing that stands out to me, (that in hindsight I think you will agree would have been a better way to handle this), was that you went to the forums for feedback on the work instead of contacting other luthiers to get their take. It may be that another luthier could have looked at this and confirmed that it is bad work, or at least explained why it came out the way it did, based on the original requirements. Armed with that information, you would be better prepared to argue your case with the original luthier or credit card company.

The most important thing is for you to enjoy your guitar again. I would point out that if it still has the same great sound, that is something in itself; refinishing can definitely change the sound. If it came back "perfect" he may have had to use a different technique, sprayed more coats, and that could have changed the tone and even made it look "incorrect" in other ways.

Regarding the file marks on the board, I didn't see anything in the original invoice about re-radiusing the neck. I wasn't able to match up the photos you provided to see if there was an A/B difference proving that he was responsible for file marks. I will just have to believe you that they weren't there before. If they are just tool marks from crowning/leveling and if it bothers you, I think you could get them worked out for a minimal fee with another luthier. I don't think there is any chance of getting the original guy to sand them out at this point.

Good luck, I hope you can get to a place where you enjoy the guitar again.

Don’t have time to read this in full, and you make some valid points. But some some points off the top of my head:

1. I never expected a “perfect” “as new” guitar back. It’s 45 years old. That’s impossible.
2. He has offered VERY LITTLE in communication. From DAY ONE. And especially once I became unhappy, which was when the final bill came. When it became clear to me that he was not going to respond anymore or offer a refund, this is a course of action that is available, hence why I took it.
3. I may not be a professional luthier now, but I do have formal training in luthiery, albeit the many years ago. I disagree with your notion that I should’ve reached out to other luthiers fist before starting this thread.
 
Mr. Willy":3p7pn2gw said:
void pig":3p7pn2gw said:
Mr. Willy":3p7pn2gw said:
I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.

I'm a long time lurker and your thread motivated me to register so I could share my thoughts on what went wrong. I had a superstrat style guitar completely refinished about 20 years ago. It was the first nice guitar I owned and had alot of sentimental value, although not as much cash value as your LP. I had done some work on it previously, had tinkered with it, altered the finish. It had been leveled many times, needed a refret, and the maple board was scarred and marked up by thousands of hours of playing.

Like you, I wasn't completely happy with the outcome. But I understood that based on the condition I gave it to him, it wouldn't come back as new. (And I only spent 600 on a refret and refinish, which I thought was a fair deal, probably close to 1000 in today's dollars, and very close to what I paid for the guitar new.) I had removed the thick poly factory finish with the expectation that I'd refinish it myself, but I didn't have the tools or skill to do a good job, so I gave the unfinished project to him to finish.

My objective here is to help moderate your emotions so you can find a middle ground and enjoy your guitar again.

I want to be supportive, and I agree the work isn't the best (or at least wouldn't meet my expectations if I was expecting a "new" looking guitar), but there are a few things that stand out in your correspondence.

The thing that you kept saying is that you wanted the guitar "to look as good as it can". And in his invoice he referred to it as "aged" look. So its clear to me that in the original dialogue, there was an acknowledgement that it wouldn't be perfect. And it seems that he took on the job with that understanding (and perhaps used that as justification to cut some corners). IMO, if you wanted it to look like a mint frampton guitar, you should have used dialogue to that effect. That may have altered his quote, or it may have given him pause to even do the work at all.

I'm saying this not to inflame, but reading the correspondence, it sounds to me like on the front side of the transaction, you were laid back and said "make it look as good as it can (I know its in bad shape)" and on the back side of the transaction you got very particular about it. And I'm not saying that you're wrong to do this, because the quote nearly doubled.

What I can relay about my own refinished guitar is that when it came back, it did not sound as good as it did before (or at least not the same). I had removed the thick factory poly finish and when they refinished it, the guitar had a "lighter/warmer" tone. Additionally, some of the wood grain indentations were showing through the new finish (like an old Fender might), so it didn't have that new/perfect "spaceship" look like many superstrats.

It may be that the finishing approach that he took on your guitar was historically accurate, the exact finishing technique used on new LPs of that era, but because the wood had been exposed, as he said, there ended up being imperfections in the final finish. In his mind this probably fell under "make it look as good as it can".

The alternative to this approach, to fill every imperfection, spray it with primer, sand, spray, sand, spray, etc could have made the guitar look "perfect", but would have been a different technique that was not historically accurate and that (more importantly) would have altered the tone of your instrument. And it might also have added additional labor.

The other thing that stands out to me, (that in hindsight I think you will agree would have been a better way to handle this), was that you went to the forums for feedback on the work instead of contacting other luthiers to get their take. It may be that another luthier could have looked at this and confirmed that it is bad work, or at least explained why it came out the way it did, based on the original requirements. Armed with that information, you would be better prepared to argue your case with the original luthier or credit card company.

The most important thing is for you to enjoy your guitar again. I would point out that if it still has the same great sound, that is something in itself; refinishing can definitely change the sound. If it came back "perfect" he may have had to use a different technique, sprayed more coats, and that could have changed the tone and even made it look "incorrect" in other ways.

Regarding the file marks on the board, I didn't see anything in the original invoice about re-radiusing the neck. I wasn't able to match up the photos you provided to see if there was an A/B difference proving that he was responsible for file marks. I will just have to believe you that they weren't there before. If they are just tool marks from crowning/leveling and if it bothers you, I think you could get them worked out for a minimal fee with another luthier. I don't think there is any chance of getting the original guy to sand them out at this point.

Good luck, I hope you can get to a place where you enjoy the guitar again.

Don’t have time to read this in full, and you make some valid points. But some some points off the top of my head:

1. I never expected a “perfect” “as new” guitar back. It’s 45 years old. That’s impossible.
2. He has offered VERY LITTLE in communication. From DAY ONE. And especially once I became unhappy, which was when the final bill came. When it became clear to me that he was not going to respond anymore or offer a refund, this is a course of action that is available, hence why I took it.
3. I may not be a professional luthier now, but I do have formal training in luthiery, albeit the many years ago. I disagree with your notion that I should’ve reached out to other luthiers fist before starting this thread.

I agree with all of this, but that fret job was what I had an issue with. It was amateur and lazy.

Ed
 
For me, communication is a prerequisite. Poor communication = no business. Just sayin'...
 
Mr. Willy":3jtyqq1o said:
void pig":3jtyqq1o said:
Mr. Willy":3jtyqq1o said:
I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.

I'm a long time lurker and your thread motivated me to register so I could share my thoughts on what went wrong. I had a superstrat style guitar completely refinished about 20 years ago. It was the first nice guitar I owned and had alot of sentimental value, although not as much cash value as your LP. I had done some work on it previously, had tinkered with it, altered the finish. It had been leveled many times, needed a refret, and the maple board was scarred and marked up by thousands of hours of playing.

Like you, I wasn't completely happy with the outcome. But I understood that based on the condition I gave it to him, it wouldn't come back as new. (And I only spent 600 on a refret and refinish, which I thought was a fair deal, probably close to 1000 in today's dollars, and very close to what I paid for the guitar new.) I had removed the thick poly factory finish with the expectation that I'd refinish it myself, but I didn't have the tools or skill to do a good job, so I gave the unfinished project to him to finish.

My objective here is to help moderate your emotions so you can find a middle ground and enjoy your guitar again.

I want to be supportive, and I agree the work isn't the best (or at least wouldn't meet my expectations if I was expecting a "new" looking guitar), but there are a few things that stand out in your correspondence.

The thing that you kept saying is that you wanted the guitar "to look as good as it can". And in his invoice he referred to it as "aged" look. So its clear to me that in the original dialogue, there was an acknowledgement that it wouldn't be perfect. And it seems that he took on the job with that understanding (and perhaps used that as justification to cut some corners). IMO, if you wanted it to look like a mint frampton guitar, you should have used dialogue to that effect. That may have altered his quote, or it may have given him pause to even do the work at all.

I'm saying this not to inflame, but reading the correspondence, it sounds to me like on the front side of the transaction, you were laid back and said "make it look as good as it can (I know its in bad shape)" and on the back side of the transaction you got very particular about it. And I'm not saying that you're wrong to do this, because the quote nearly doubled.

What I can relay about my own refinished guitar is that when it came back, it did not sound as good as it did before (or at least not the same). I had removed the thick factory poly finish and when they refinished it, the guitar had a "lighter/warmer" tone. Additionally, some of the wood grain indentations were showing through the new finish (like an old Fender might), so it didn't have that new/perfect "spaceship" look like many superstrats.

It may be that the finishing approach that he took on your guitar was historically accurate, the exact finishing technique used on new LPs of that era, but because the wood had been exposed, as he said, there ended up being imperfections in the final finish. In his mind this probably fell under "make it look as good as it can".

The alternative to this approach, to fill every imperfection, spray it with primer, sand, spray, sand, spray, etc could have made the guitar look "perfect", but would have been a different technique that was not historically accurate and that (more importantly) would have altered the tone of your instrument. And it might also have added additional labor.

The other thing that stands out to me, (that in hindsight I think you will agree would have been a better way to handle this), was that you went to the forums for feedback on the work instead of contacting other luthiers to get their take. It may be that another luthier could have looked at this and confirmed that it is bad work, or at least explained why it came out the way it did, based on the original requirements. Armed with that information, you would be better prepared to argue your case with the original luthier or credit card company.

The most important thing is for you to enjoy your guitar again. I would point out that if it still has the same great sound, that is something in itself; refinishing can definitely change the sound. If it came back "perfect" he may have had to use a different technique, sprayed more coats, and that could have changed the tone and even made it look "incorrect" in other ways.

Regarding the file marks on the board, I didn't see anything in the original invoice about re-radiusing the neck. I wasn't able to match up the photos you provided to see if there was an A/B difference proving that he was responsible for file marks. I will just have to believe you that they weren't there before. If they are just tool marks from crowning/leveling and if it bothers you, I think you could get them worked out for a minimal fee with another luthier. I don't think there is any chance of getting the original guy to sand them out at this point.

Good luck, I hope you can get to a place where you enjoy the guitar again.

Don’t have time to read this in full, and you make some valid points. But some some points off the top of my head:

1. I never expected a “perfect” “as new” guitar back. It’s 45 years old. That’s impossible.
2. He has offered VERY LITTLE in communication. From DAY ONE. And especially once I became unhappy, which was when the final bill came. When it became clear to me that he was not going to respond anymore or offer a refund, this is a course of action that is available, hence why I took it.
3. I may not be a professional luthier now, but I do have formal training in luthiery, albeit the many years ago. I disagree with your notion that I should’ve reached out to other luthiers fist before starting this thread.


I'm sorry you didn't have time to read my post.

I guess the tldr; version is that:

1) When you set up the job, there was an ambiguous requirement to "make it look as good as it can". The explanation in his final text seems completely plausible, why you can see grain pattern in some places, and why he didn't fill all the indents. Other guitars on his site show paint imperfections, whether it was intentional relicing or not is unknown. Your guitar's finish appears to be in line with the quality shown on his site.

2) I would chalk up the majority of the disconnect on work quality to poor communication. Addressing the small divots and wood grain pattern may have required a different finishing technique which was not historically accurate and could have compromised the tone.

3) Any chance you had of finding an equitable resolution went up in smoke when you started this thread, thats just how people "are".

I had a luthier screw up a plek job about a decade ago. He pleked it with so much relief that the truss rod was out of its adjustment range. (He probably did this to save his bits.) I was pissed that he didn't follow directions, I had a lengthy argument over phone and emails. I was able to cite how the work didn't meet original requirements spelled out in the email work order (to not add any relief to neck), and he very grudgingly refunded the complete cost. I never threatened to go public or take it online. I did say I would reverse charge if needed.

IOW, the work on your guitar is "meh" IMO, but it still sounds and plays great, and the work seems consistent with what he shows on his site. You were not very particular on the front side of the communication, or at least did not document your requirements in an email. You burned up any good will by starting this thread. The work he did does not violate the original work order so I suspect getting a charge reversal will be difficult.
 

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