Should I be upset? VIDEOS ADDED

[JerEvil]

Ok. Couple things here...

I think you may have shot yourself in the foot here (hopefully not) by posting as much as you have. The communication IS a bit vague on both sides. You were a touch unclear in writing about your expectations. You need to specifically state what you wanted fixed. Many times you’ve said “I’d have thought the grain should be filled”, etc BUT without that expressly cleared up and documented, HIS vague responses and bill might prove hard to validate.

It’s a case of you didn’t ask for it, even if common sense should dictate filling it on his end, and he didn’t even try to clarify.

You definitely should stop posting in here, get some documented quotes from other luthiers for comparison, get quotes on how much to fix the repair and get to small claims court. Also I’d screenshot the creation date of the video under its properties. It may not be able to be used as evidence since there are easy ways to change them with free/cheap software.

Again I’m no lawyer and agree the work and situation it suspect. Especially dirt in the finish and nicks down to the wood. I’d get a documented review of work and issues plus a quote to fix it all ASAP.

Also, Void Pig has to be affiliated in some way.

 

[Racerxrated]

void pig = NTL

Him or his boyfriend/girlfriend.

Even if the IP address' don't match, it's still obvious. (computer at home, computer at the office, isn't very hard) Who on earth invests this much time & energy fighting the obviously WRONG point of view? This dude just looks worse and worse as we see more of him. (and VERY UNcool response to that unboxing video too)

This. EXACTLY. Not one RTer here, NOT ONE, has agreed or taken the side of the Luthier on this. We don't all get along and agree to everything. But in this case, to a member, we do. 2K for a freaking restore? It better be damn perfect and EXACT to the order. Especially after quoting 1100! It wasn't. So NTL Guitar needs to make it right.
Do it.
Now.

 

[skullfxr]

Void Pig's account came into existence at a convenient time.

Interesting critique.

And a bold jackass-ish assumption without motive. Huh.

I smell fish.

Im standing up for a guy whose livlihood is being put in jeopardy. This is any small business owner's worst nightmare. An unreasonable customer who is seeing red and will do anything to get his way, including fabricating an "unboxing" video.

I was on the OPs side for a little bit, but then I went back and reread the thread, read the luthiers response, (which was professional), and saw inconsistencies in the OPs account.

I don't have a horse in the race, and question the horse you are riding.

Still your banter/borderline threat post was beyond uncalled for. Especially if you don't have a horse in the race.

Yes it is a small business owners nightmare. It's the customers nightmare. That is why I don't do work on other peoples stuff (unrelated in nature). I will source and do what I do and sell, but I do not hold property of somebody else just for a fear similar to that.

Some people make a living knowing that their working on other peoples stuff, they accept that risk and that's part of the business. Shit like this is a nightmare for those,but it IS an accepted risk. They have to literally budget for this.

At the end of the day neither side wins.

From what I have seen, I would not be happy with the work.

Regarding the luthier, if I were doing business in luthiery, I would put the extra 10% in and do the job right. The extra 10% can be resulting in a happy returning customer, or a thread like this.

It is what it is, but I really don't see a bank (CC) would act on this. My bet is that it's either a loss or small claims court which could also be a loss and may not worth perusing. As that would involve a plane flight, hotel stay and a rental car.

 

[journeyman73]

Void Pig's account came into existence at a convenient time.

Interesting critique.

And a bold jackass-ish assumption without motive. Huh.

I smell fish.

Im standing up for a guy whose livlihood is being put in jeopardy. This is any small business owner's worst nightmare. An unreasonable customer who is seeing red and will do anything to get his way, including fabricating an "unboxing" video.

I was on the OPs side for a little bit, but then I went back and reread the thread, read the luthiers response, (which was professional), and saw inconsistencies in the OPs account.

Personally, i don’ think i disagree wholly with you.

There has been a bit of drip, drip, drip to the information presented here...and the communication with the luthier did take on an increasing tone of ‘do this or else...’. And there clearly were exchanged that happened that were not presented until later on in the thread (part of the drip, drip of information).

I don’t know what that all adds up to - but i do think there was at least some element of simply not wanting to pay the price and working backward from there.

Honestly, it almost comes across as ‘you are charging me way more than I expected/wanted, I will find something here that is not up to snuff’ - again, the level of quality may not be high, the communication could have sucked, etc, etc - but I am also sure that if i put a ‘fine tooth comb’ to even a new instrument I could be dissatisfied with certain things.

I guess I just feel many things can be true at the same time...and with something as ambiguous as ‘make it look good’ or it will be a ‘new, vintage instrument’ (many people may think that means many different things’ it adds to potential miscommunications.

Apologies if this is just a thread to vent (which i can totally empathize with)...but as an outsider just thought i’d share what seems to be a decidedly different view.

 

[japetus]

"I've got some friends who do DOD work in Hunstville, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to find out who you are. I think you should be more concerned about your NG coworkers finding out about your antics and behavior in this thread."

Yeah, those are doxxx threats. Ban should be incoming on this POS.

 

[phil b]

Void Pig's account came into existence at a convenient time.

Interesting critique.

And a bold jackass-ish assumption without motive. Huh.

I smell fish.

Im standing up for a guy whose livlihood is being put in jeopardy. This is any small business owner's worst nightmare. An unreasonable customer who is seeing red and will do anything to get his way, including fabricating an "unboxing" video.

I was on the OPs side for a little bit, but then I went back and reread the thread, read the luthiers response, (which was professional), and saw inconsistencies in the OPs account.

Ok man... I was a small business owner for over 20 years. First and foremost, this business owner provides a service. Customer comes to owner and requests service. There are conversations and words exchanged. Then a ballpark estimate is given. Now.. heres where it gets wonky. Owner has the smarts to include shop materials but not the smarts to price out everything needed for a completed estimate?? Unless it is agreed upon beforehand, not many people give carde blanche as to having open ended funding! As far as the actual work thats a whole separate issue. Its seems owner had visions of Framptons guitar AFTER if fell out of the plane and customer wanted a pre plane Frampton looking guitar! I think any confusion could have been avoided in a total estimate, which Obviously would have raised flags with the customer. AS A BUSINESS OWNER NEVER TAKE IT UPON YOURSELF TO ASSUME WHAT THE CUSTOMER WANTS! YOUR A BUSINESS.. PUT YOUR DESCRIPTION OF WORK IN THE ESTIMATE AND DAMN WELL MAKE SURE THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ANY MISINTERPRETATION!! If this was done this thread would not exist!

 

[skullfxr]

Ok. Couple things here...

I think you may have shot yourself in the foot here (hopefully not) by posting as much as you have. The communication IS a bit vague on both sides. You were a touch unclear in writing about your expectations. You need to specifically state what you wanted fixed. Many times you’ve said “I’d have thought the grain should be filled”, etc BUT without that expressly cleared up and documented, HIS vague responses and bill might prove hard to validate.

It’s a case of you didn’t ask for it, even if common sense should dictate filling it on his end, and he didn’t even try to clarify.

You definitely should stop posting in here, get some documented quotes from other luthiers for comparison, get quotes on how much to fix the repair and get to small claims court. Also I’d screenshot the creation date of the video under its properties. It may not be able to be used as evidence since there are easy ways to change them with free/cheap software.

Again I’m no lawyer and agree the work and situation it suspect. Especially dirt in the finish and nicks down to the wood. I’d get a documented review of work and issues plus a quote to fix it all ASAP.

Also, Void Pig has to be affiliated in some way.

I kinda feel like this.

The legal system is based on contracts. There are certain things that can be proven and are fact. A vague contract is not a good thing for either party. Only what is written and communicated can be substantiated can be properly held up. There is a cost of parts and shipping, etc. That can be easily proven. If that part is there. It's there. Then the rest is 'artistry' and 'opinion' or 'assumption. Opinions vary, assumptions are not a good thing, and artistry can be subjective. Get quotes from professionals and opinions and from peers regarding the work.

Shitty situation and I feel bad for the OP, and I would not be happy. I wouldn't send a guitar to him hearing this. That's all I can say, I think that is low quality work. Period.

 

[skullfxr]

Ok man... I was a small business owner for over 20 years. First and foremost, this business owner provides a service. Customer comes to owner and requests service. There are conversations and words exchanged. Then a ballpark estimate is given. Now.. heres where it gets wonky. Owner has the smarts to include shop materials but not the smarts to price out everything needed for a completed estimate?? Unless it is agreed upon beforehand, not many people give carde blanche as to having open ended funding! As far as the actual work thats a whole separate issue. Its seems owner had visions of Framptons guitar AFTER if fell out of the plane and customer wanted a pre plane Frampton looking guitar! I think any confusion could have been avoided in a total estimate, which Obviously would have raised flags with the customer. AS A BUSINESS OWNER NEVER TAKE IT UPON YOURSELF TO ASSUME WHAT THE CUSTOMER WANTS! YOUR A BUSINESS.. PUT YOUR DESCRIPTION OF WORK IN THE ESTIMATE AND DAMN WELL MAKE SURE THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ANY MISINTERPRETATION!! If this was done this thread would not exist!

Totally agree. I am a person who overcommunicates EVERYTHING. That's my personality. Drives some people (family, friends) crazy, but in business EVERYBODY needs to overcommunicate. I feel that better twice said than go unmentioned.

I do gotta be real here and say that I don't understand why the unboxing video didn't come for several days.

 

[harddriver]

If void pig is not NTl how would he know Mr/ Willy sent him a Colossally trashed guitar? Void pig is getting personally involved in this situation even using veiled threats of finding Mr. Willy with DOD contacts, come on that is some grade school playground shit there.

Mr. Willy void pig revealed that you payed by 4 Paypal payments, Paypal should be able to do something for you I hope you did not pay with the gift option, if you did it looks like PP can't help you and it would be small claims court which cost time and money on your part. We all know from not to distant thread from RT there was a buyer of Mesa power amp not long ago filed a refund case with PP credit, got his refund, gave a fake tracking number then was reselling the power amp on Ebay, I never heard if the seller ever go his money or amp back. It's a shitty world out there for sure.

As for the guitar repair shop NTL, I have never know anyone that would spend $1,900.00 on a restoration of a guitar and not expect it to look and play in new as near a new condition as possible. If that could not or would not be achieved once the Luthier(NTL) received the guitar and evaluated it, it was his responsibility to inform the customer that the guitar was too far gone to invest any more money into if it was in fact a COLOSSALLY trashed guitar. Not take even more money($800) from the guy up charging on top of the original quote him then delivering an inferior product.

 

[Mr. Willy]

The unboxing video didn’t come for several days because I only filmed it to make sure the guitar wasn’t damaged in shipping. I was protecting myself from UPS with that video.

I can see why some of you may think that’s suspicious. I get it. I filmed it right when the guitar arrived. I could prove it in court if need be. Got the time stamp on it. Also have the delivery notice from UPS. That’s irrelevant, really.

Bottom line though, and this is where I think my case hinges: he quoted me $900-$1100 via email for the work. On the phone The next day or so after that estimate was given, he requested $700 up front. I asked if that $700 was included in the original $900-$1100 guesstimate.

He CONFIRMED IN THE ATTACHED EMAIL, that yes, the $700 was included in the guesstimate and that $900-$1100 included parts and materials.

Then in the bill below, he charged me the $700 “deposit” IN ADDITION TO $1200.

READ THE ATTACHED EMAIL THEN READ THIS BILL.
Bill:
Items, Parts, Materials.

Ernie Ball 11/ 48 pure nickel $ 7.10
Gibson selector switch indicator, creme, $ 21.95
Gibson Historic Authentic M-69 Pickup mounting rings, creme, pair, w/screws $ 42.00
Gibson Historic screw set, complete, aged, nickel, $ 38.00
Switchcraft input jack, long shaft $ 6.85
Wire, Braid, vint correct. $ 5.25
Caps, pair, .022. $ 2.50
Gibson Historic Authentic 6/6 Nylon Nut $ 25.00
Fretwire, jumbo / tall, 3 sticks, $ 16.71
Gibson Gold Speed Knobs $ 19.40
CTS pots, 500k, 7% tol. $ 29.00
Switchcraft toggle switch tall, chrome $ 21.59
Custom Chrome Jackplate $ 9.80
Tone Pro’s Tail Piece assy, Chrome, $ 39.31
Tone Pro’s Abr Bridge assy, Chrome, $ 50.24
Mohawk inst. Nitro Laquer, 1 qt. $ 34.00
3M sanding papers, various grits, 12 sheets+ $ 24.00
Miscellaneous materials (solvents, glues, paper towels, etc.) $ 17.00
————————————————————————————
Sub total $ 409.70
Labor, 28 hrs. (guesstimated at 19 hrs, minus 4hr adjustment, 24 total) $ 1440.
————————————————————————————
Sub total $ 1849.70
Deposit (PayPal $700. minus fee’s) (-) $ 679.40
————————————————————————————
Sub total $ 1170.30
Shipping, UPS Ground, signature required, $ 60.38
————————————————————————————
Total amount Due,
Paypal with fee’s, $1267.74
or,
Paypal, friends/ family, (zero fee’s), Postal M/O’s, Checks (cleared), $1230.00


All parts, items, materials, etc. are procured from a select few of sources,
Ex. Stew mac, Reverb, MojoTone, company direct.
State taxes and shipping costs included on all items.
No labor costs during procurements, communications, shipping, handling.

Gibson Les Paul # 551475, Guestimate 1975 Kalamazoo build.
Re finished and aged to resemble Peter Frampton LPC.
Spec’d and build out, set up to Client's requirements, requests.

 

[Mr. Willy]

I honestly don’t expect a dime back at this point.

The main thing I’m arguing here is principle.

If he would’ve stuck to the original estimate, this thread wouldn’t exist. I’d still be disappointed in the quality of the work, but I would’ve bit my lip and moved on.

If that’s what passes as quality luthiery these days, I’d be better off just buying the equipment and doing the work myself.

 

[skullfxr]

Re finished and aged to resemble Peter Frampton LPC

I thought you didn't want aged.

 

[Mr. Willy]

Re finished and aged to resemble Peter Frampton LPC

I thought you didn't want aged.

I never said the word “aged” in our conversations, mine and the luthier. Not in email or on the phone. The bill was the first time I ever saw “aged” in our interactions.

 

[skullfxr]

If that’s what passes as quality luthiery these days, I’d be better off just buying the equipment and doing the work myself.

To a degree that is what I did. I am not a professional painter, but I also don't have the skill for a refret, but I will level and crown. I practiced on $20 necks from CL. I did each one three or four times for practice. I have refinished several guitars with good results. Not necessarily pro job, but I have done better than this scenario.

I feel bad for your situation, but it's over and done. Take it to small claims, or just enjoy it. My favorite guitars have wear on them. In two years most will. Have some, but I see the disappointment.

 

[skullfxr]

If that’s what passes as quality luthiery these days, I’d be better off just buying the equipment and doing the work myself.

To a degree that is what I did. I am not a professional painter, but I also don't have the skill for a refret, but I will level and crown. I practiced on $20 necks from CL. I did each one three or four times for practice. I have refinished several guitars with good results. Not necessarily pro job, but I have done better than this scenario.

I feel bad for your situation, but it's over and done. Take it to small claims, or just enjoy it. My favorite guitars have wear on them. In two years most will. Have some, but I see the disappointment.

 

[skullfxr]

Re finished and aged to resemble Peter Frampton LPC

I thought you didn't want aged.

I never said the word “aged” in our conversations, mine and the luthier. Not in email or on the phone. The bill was the first time I ever saw “aged” in our interactions.

That should have been addressed from the get go OR you should have addressed it prior.

 

[Mr. Willy]

Re finished and aged to resemble Peter Frampton LPC

I thought you didn't want aged.

I never said the word “aged” in our conversations, mine and the luthier. Not in email or on the phone. The bill was the first time I ever saw “aged” in our interactions.

That should have been addressed from the get go OR you should have addressed it prior.

Did you read that last email I attached?

 

[skullfxr]

I think. At this point everything is moot. Every aspect has been discussed more times than I can remember.

Ultimately I obviously can not do anything nor can anyone on the forum, it's in your hands and the luthier.

Personally the plane ticket, time, hotel, and cab woul d not be worth it for small claims court.

I genuinely do feel bad as a fellow guitarist . Hopefully other people learned from your less than ideal situation and are more explicit regarding demands on a job. That is my only hope. And that maybe somebody will be researching the luthier and find this thread.

That's about it tbh. What happens happens. Unfortunately it's part of the game of the game of having high end things and getting them serviced.

Have a good father's day, spend it with your family and enjoy the guitar.

Again condolences for a bad scenario as no musician wants this to happen, but just try to fall back in love with it.

There is nothing more really to be said.

Cheers.

 

[Mr. Willy]

I think. At this point everything is moot. Every aspect has been discussed more times than I can remember.

Ultimately I obviously can not do anything nor can anyone on the forum, it's in your hands and the luthier.

Personally the plane ticket, time, hotel, and cab woul d not be worth it for small claims court.

I genuinely do feel bad as a fellow guitarist . Hopefully other people learned from your less than ideal situation and are more explicit regarding demands on a job. That is my only hope. And that maybe somebody will be researching the luthier and find this thread.

That's about it tbh. What happens happens. Unfortunately it's part of the game of the game of having high end things and getting them serviced.

Have a good father's day, spend it with your family and enjoy the guitar.

Again condolences for a bad scenario as no musician wants this to happen, but just try to fall back in love with it.

There is nothing more really to be said.

Cheers.

I feel you man. You’re absolutely right on very point. Happy Father’s Day to you as well, if applicable.

I’ve tried very hard to be be reasonable and to be open to areas where I may have been in the wrong here. I’m not even sure at this point that I’m going to pursue action. I’ve got things prepared and ready to go, but I’m weighing that versus just simply moving on.

 

[skullfxr]

I feel you man. You’re absolutely right on very point. Happy Father’s Day to you as well, if applicable.

I’ve tried very hard to be be reasonable and to be open to areas where I may have been in the wrong here. I’m not even sure at this point that I’m going to pursue action. I’ve got things prepared and ready to go, but I’m weighing that versus just simply moving on.

I am having a great Father's day with my soon to be two year old daughter.

You just have to weigh if it's worth it, and that's your personal decision.

Hate breeds hate, anger brings more anger, and neither will give you peace. What is done is done.

I sleep well every night knowing that I live my life in an honest fashion and I live in an ethical fashion. That's just my choice and I can generally say that I am a happy person who has a good life, sure hiccups exist, but that is the case for everybody. I am at peace with my life and lifestyle. And for me I value that over money and materialistic things.

You are the only person who can change. Grab the guitar, turn up an amp and play away, I bet that a few hours in you will love the guitar and slowly forget the imperfections and get lost in the music.