So the pope….

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denialist said:
I think it's more complicated than that — IE old testament law vs new testament "Freedom in christ". Some of the explanations just seem like rationalizations to me though and arguably they are still relativizing aspects of the Bible to suit the modern world.
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Temple/ritual law vs moral law.

Not mixing two types of fabrics=ritual law

Not stealing=moral law
 
denialist said:
I think it's more complicated than that — IE old testament law vs new testament "Freedom in christ". Some of the explanations just seem like rationalizations to me though and arguably they are still relativizing aspects of the Bible to suit the modern world.
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It seems there is a lot of rationalizing being done. Each individual person I imagine rationalizes differently, however the Pope is kind of there to "rationalize for the whole".
Not that I really have an opinion on what a church should be doing, but it is a very interesting thought exercise to think about why exactly is homosexuality frowned upon in the bible, and how does it relate to today? Take a look at all the mortal sins and some are no brainers why they are "bad", however others are less clear and rely mostly on "because God said so". Which if that is the reason, that's the reason, I'm not gonna tell anyone not to believe it, but I do find it interesting.
 
Aynirar27 said:
It seems there is a lot of rationalizing being done. Each individual person I imagine rationalizes differently, however the Pope is kind of there to "rationalize for the whole".
Not that I really have an opinion on what a church should be doing, but it is a very interesting thought exercise to think about why exactly is homosexuality frowned upon in the bible, and how does it relate to today? Take a look at all the mortal sins and some are no brainers why they are "bad", however others are less clear and rely mostly on "because God said so". Which if that is the reason, that's the reason, I'm not gonna tell anyone not to believe it, but I do find it interesting.
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It is human nature to rationalize whatever it is one wants to believe or do. It takes real work to subject one's own beliefs to objective scrutiny and at some point the endeavor is probably impossible. As for homosexuality, I agree, it seems trivial. But there are reasons that make sense from a sociological and biological standpoint apart from "Because God designed it that way."
 
I'll add that proscriptions against homosexuality in the bible it appear consistent and clear. It seems like a joke that people would try to argue otherwise, if they are going to take the Bible literally anyways.
 
What happened to Stripped Rights overnight? (over day for you guys lol) What did he do?
 
denialist said:
As for homosexuality, I agree, it seems trivial.
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So does getting drunk, or fornication, or telling white lies. There is a lot of behavior many people consider trivial that is not accepted by the God of the bible. It's actually a standard no mortal can achieve.
 
VonBonfire said:
So does getting drunk, or fornication, or telling white lies. There is a lot of behavior many people consider trivial that is not accepted by the God of the bible. It's actually a standard no mortal can achieve.
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The real nature of sin is not making God "King" of your life so to speak... All sin flows from that ie. putting other things at the centre of our life. If we put God at the centre of our lives then we should take what he says in the Bible seriously. Yes there are lists of things in the Bible considered to be sin but just about all of them are because you aren't following God. Yes we aren't going to achieve it and that's why we are grateful for Jesus who paid the price for us. Doesn't mean we should sin though because that's literally slapping God in the face.
 
VonBonfire said:
So does getting drunk, or fornication, or telling white lies. There is a lot of behavior many people consider trivial that is not accepted by the God of the bible. It's actually a standard no mortal can achieve.
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That was kinda my point though, it seems homosexuality is held to a higher “importance” for lack of a better word. A church wouldn’t reject someone from having their wedding there because they’ve been drunk before, or if they know they are going out for drinks after.

My curiosity is why so many draw the imaginary line at gay. You lump them in with lies and drinking, but outside of a religion, there is nothing remotely bad about being gay. Any person regardless of religion could see why being drunk or telling lies would be frowned upon, but being gay? Not so much.

It’s just very fascinating to me where it stemmed from and why. Why was it ever a threat? And why is it still such an important belief today? It’s interesting to think about
 
Aynirar27 said:
That was kinda my point though, it seems homosexuality is held to a higher “importance” for lack of a better word. A church wouldn’t reject someone from having their wedding there because they’ve been drunk before, or if they know they are going out for drinks after.

My curiosity is why so many draw the imaginary line at gay. You lump them in with lies and drinking, but outside of a religion, there is nothing remotely bad about being gay. Any person regardless of religion could see why being drunk or telling lies would be frowned upon, but being gay? Not so much.

It’s just very fascinating to me where it stemmed from and why. Why was it ever a threat? And why is it still such an important belief today? It’s interesting to think about
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Drinking isn't a sin... being a drunkard is. Analyse that in terms of putting God at the centre of your life like I posted just now a few posts up. If you are a drunkard are you really putting God at the centre of your life or have you substituted alcohol. Are you treating your body as a temple?

re: homosexuality it's imo sexual immorality and there are verses about sexual immorality. It's not just homosexuality in that category. So is sex outside marriage and adultery. If sex outside marriage is wrong then you can also say homosexuality is wrong for even that reason - because the Bible says Marriage is between a man and a woman. Not between a man and man.
 
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I think it was not homosexuality per se, but the sanctification and celebration of homosexual "Marriage" along with the disdain or outright rejection of other traditional cultural norms that has lead to the sharp decline and craziness we see in society today. That's not meant to be a homophobic comment — I really don't care if dudes want to get it on or partner up and believe they should be free to do so.
 
Aynirar27 said:
That was kinda my point though, it seems homosexuality is held to a higher “importance” for lack of a better word. A church wouldn’t reject someone from having their wedding their because they’ve been drunk before, or if they know they are going out for drinks after.
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A priest could refuse to marry someone who had been confessing to drunkenness or fornication but it would probably be denomination dependent. Obviously your post is geared towards more traditional denominations.

Aynirar27 said:
there is nothing remotely bad about being gay.
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That's your opinion. Other people see it as a sexual misdeed like fornication or adultery.
 
Thumbpicker said:
What happened to Stripped Rights overnight? (over day for you guys lol) What did he do?
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N7cHrXR.png
 
denialist said:
I think it was not homosexuality per se, but the sanctification and celebration of homosexual "Marriage" along with the disdain or outright rejection of other traditional cultural norms that has lead to the sharp decline and craziness we see in society today. That's not meant to be a homophobic comment — I really don't care if dudes want to get it on or partner up and believe they should be free to do so.
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I agree the first half of that... Personally I don't agree with the second half - but I'm not telling you what to think. Well I agree with the second half that we have free choice to sin or not sin but personally I'd prefer not to sin.
 
Aynirar27 said:
Honest question for those who care to chime in; Has there not been other things from the bible that have gone to the wayside in modern times? Aren't there words in there about keeping slaves, and crippled people, those born outside of wedlock, etc? I haven't fact checked any of these but I've heard things about shellfish, tattoos and "round haircuts" be called detestable too.

I guess what I'm asking is if it's possible people are "sticklers" for keeping gays out partly, or mostly due to their own personal feelings towards them instead of "not going against God"? There seems to already be a line drawn in the sand of what has been acceptably "modernized". It creates a pretty big grey area. I'm not saying the churched HAS to allow new things, but philosophically, it takes some weight away from "we can't go against the word of God"

anyways, those are my thoughts. Enjoy the opportunity to look inward for a moment.

or not. i'm gonna go have a cigarette.
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Most of the time it’s people quoting things from the Old Testament and comparing them to the New Testament. If you are serious about contradictions just look them up. Tons of articles or even videos on these subjects. I used to think it constantly contradicts itself and then I learned nope…not really. As a Christian the main thing for me from the Old Testament is prophecy. Of course I will place more emphasis naturally on the New Testament. Usually when people are attacking Christianity they are quoting Old Testament Jewish scripture. Sin to plant two different seeds in one field, lay with a woman on her period, two different stitches in your clothes, can’t cut the hair on the sides of your head or you risk many different punishments. Those are all Old Testament verses. New Testament…golden rule…repent of your sins, accept Christ as your savior and go and sin no more. Pretty straightforward.
 
JackBootedThug said:
Most of the time it’s people quoting things from the Old Testament and comparing them to the New Testament. If you are serious about contradictions just look them up. Tons of articles or even videos on these subjects. I used to think it constantly contradicts itself and then I learned nope…not really. As a Christian the main thing for me from the Old Testament is prophecy. Of course I will place more emphasis naturally on the New Testament. Usually when people are attacking Christianity they are quoting Old Testament Jewish scripture. Sin to plant two different seeds in one field, lay with a woman on her period, two different stitches in your clothes, can’t cut the hair on the sides of your head or you risk many different punishments. Those are all Old Testament verses. New Testament…golden rule…repent of your sins, accept Christ as your savior and go and sin no more. Pretty straightforward.
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Yep this! 100%
 
denialist said:
It really gets religious folks of all stripes going for some reason. Arguably though, as the family unit is the basis for healthy society, anything that undermines that could be seen as particularly bad. We also need men and women to procreate to maintain the species.
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That's what I think as well. Which makes me go down the rabbit hole of the modern family unit. It seems "procreation" and "raising a child" are not as congruent as they once were, which raises the question, "what is more important in God's eyes?", the actual procreation or the family unit/raising the child, or maybe it's "all or nothing".

But it helps define "modern" as not something trendy, but the current circumstances in which we live in. That's why I'm curious about the underlying reason(s) to see homosexuality as a sin. If the underlying reason is the family unit, then I think a lot would agree that in 2024, the continuation of our species is a lot less dependent on heterosexual relationships. Yes, of course you still need a man and a woman to get pregnant, but straight relationships are not going anywhere, they are still breeding, and IMO more than ever, it is resulting in children that need a family outside of their birth parents. Sure some could argue that 2 men or 2 women are incapable of raising a child properly, but I also think there are mountains of evidence to say that they can.

So anyways that's my ramblings. I'm not trying to change the church or anything, but since this thread deals with "modernizing" the church, I think it's important to figure out what you mean by "modernize" and what were the original intentions behind the words of God that are in question of modernization; especially in this instance if the underlying intention is the family unit and the care of a child, it might be worth a second look or moment of reconsideration.

I guess my idea being you can “modernize” something without losing it’s original meaning and intent
 
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