Talk Some Sense Into Me

[Candiria]

I joined here because I have an amp dilemma, and you bitches know your amps

So I've been flipping amps like crazy the past year or so. I've had a Roadster for about 4 months now, and have been fighting with it ever since day 1. There's just something about it that seems less musical and inspiring than the Mark IV I had previously. So my initial thought was to flip the Roadster for a Mark V because I'd get the Mark sound, but with more versatility. However, I'm not sure I won't be missing the heavy, thick rhythm sounds I get from the boosted Rec if I decide on the Mark.

I've heard a couple people say that the Rhodes stuff is like a combo of the Mark and Recto in that it's thick like a Recto, but tight and smooth like a Mark. I'm thinking that the Orthos might work for me, but it's not as feature packed as the Boogies, let alone Kyle's other products, and has a shared EQ and minimal voicing options.

So then there's the Gemini..and now I'm talking about an expensive amp that I can't play beforehand, can't really buy used, and can't actually afford without saving for a while and selling off the Roadster, an OR15, and maybe my ESP

Basically I'm looking for an amp with a very good clean channel, and two high gain channels (or switchable options). One capable of a thick, fast tracking rhythm, and the other singing lead tone.

So someone, for the love of God, give me some advice!


TL;DR I'm about to go back to solid state and crappy gear cause life was simpler then.

 

[glassjaw7]

Welcome to the board.

I went through (and am still going through) the exact same thought process. Had a recto for years, loved the huge crushing rhythm but wanted a more refined, smooth lead tone and better loop. Had it modded but eventually traded for a Mark IV which I still have.

I like the Mark for the tighter gain structure and pissed off, yet smooth growl and better loop, good clean ch, etc. But it does lack the thickness and more open/less nasal voicing of the rectos. I was searching for something in between the two amps like you and considered the Rhodes stuff but something has me hanging onto the Mark for now.

The best amps I've played that do what you described are the VH4, 5150 III (though not in the same channel layout you suggested), Road King II(much better loop than my old Dual and EL34s sound awesome on the heavy gain stuff, GREAT clean),

Other good ones were the Engl Invader but it had some kind of processed tone to my ears that I didn't love after playing the more raw Mesa stuff. Still felt great to play though.
Mark V is cool too and super versatile but I didn't have enough time to say whether or not I really like it as much as my IV. Played a ton of others that I can't think of right now but lately I'm just burned out on gear and tone searching. I've been playing my strat unplugged a lot.

 

[4406cuda]

Welcome to Rig-Talk!

I have had many Boogie products, Triaxis/2:90, Studio Preamp, Mark III, Mark IV, and Mark V

The Triaxis and 2:90 was the most versatile, but I like the Mark V the most and comes in second in Versatility.

I also have a 5150 III 50 watt that I love, it does not have a usable clean channel when the second channel is set up for a medium amount of gain, because of the shared controls. To get around it, I use Line 6 POD HD500X for effects, Channel switching, and use the amp simulator for my cleans. I have the POD connected to the 5150 in a 4 cable method.

Both the Mark V and the 5150 III with a line 6 Pod 500X will require a little tweaking. I would not say they are plug and play, if you want a variety of tones. If you want cleans, mid gain, high gain, and lead tones, you will need to spend a little time dialing it in.

 

[HRC51]

Thick boosted tone -- I think the Orthos might be good.

I just got an Orthos, and it does modern high gain with a really nice clean channel.

It does not really have a "shared" eq. The clean channel and lead channel have their own eq. You just get 2 master volumes. Both channels have a bright switch and a voice. I like the bright switch for getting that tube screamer chug without the extra noise of the pedal. Top and Bottom controls are great for tweaking for low volume or different cabinets. The more I play it, the more I like it.

I prefer Rhodes and Diezel over Mesa (I played them for years). Just tighter and more articulation. Rhodes (KSR now) Orthos or Gemini -- if you need midi. The Diezel Lil Fokker has some great reviews.

The Mark V has so many options, but how many do you actually use?

 

[Candiria]

Thanks guys!

@cuda

The 5153 is something I'll look into, probably the 100w head though because of the problem you mention with the clean/rhythm channel. I'll look into the Pod with the 4CM. I'm like illiterate when it comes to anything beyond guitar/pedal/amp.

@Glass

That's too funny dude. I've been playing mostly unplugged lately too lol. I just have no clue what direction to go in because it seems the best choices aren't really easy to track down and play, you know. I know I like the Mark tone and I can find a Mark V easily, but a Rhodes, Peters, Diezel, or Engl? The only shot I have there is an Engl, and from what I've played/heard it's not really what I'm looking for.

I think I might focus on the Gemini, but it's way expensive when compared to a used Mark V. Diezel is another expensive option, but I would go used, and could save for however long it takes and flip the Roadster. Is there like a Rig-Talk be all end all Diezel thread because I'm kind of clueless on them.

 

[C1-ocaster]

Thanks guys!

@cuda

The 5153 is something I'll look into, probably the 100w head though because of the problem you mention with the clean/rhythm channel. I'll look into the Pod with the 4CM. I'm like illiterate when it comes to anything beyond guitar/pedal/amp.

@Glass

That's too funny dude. I've been playing mostly unplugged lately too lol. I just have no clue what direction to go in because it seems the best choices aren't really easy to track down and play, you know. I know I like the Mark tone and I can find a Mark V easily, but a Rhodes, Peters, Diezel, or Engl? The only shot I have there is an Engl, and from what I've played/heard it's not really what I'm looking for.

I think I might focus on the Gemini, but it's way expensive when compared to a used Mark V. Diezel is another expensive option, but I would go used, and could save for however long it takes and flip the Roadster. Is there like a Rig-Talk be all end all Diezel thread because I'm kind of clueless on them.

Welcome.

Yes, LOT's of gear knowledgable and experienced people on this forum.
I've learned a lot since joining a few months ago.
The preferred gear on this forum tends to be on the expensive side, and from what members say and describe, it's money well spent.
But, I don't want to spend the kind of money that the best of the best amps require.
I no longer gig and don't have a need for ultra high end and gigging quality construction and the prices that go with them.

The following is not the preferred or recommended amp option, but I'll throw it out there anyway.
For me, I've discovered something I never considered before, a great clean Fender amp and some great quality pedals.
I always preferred guitar into amp with an amp that could do good clean and provide good high gain.
Once I tried the Fender and pedal set up I am now hooked.

That Fender tone is the basis for so many high end modern amps, or at least Fender is the basis for amps that are the basis for many modern high end and high gain amps.
So I decided to go with the Fender clean canvas and paint with pedals. The tonal options are fantastic with good pedals..
Instead of changing amps for different tone palates I can now use different pedals while using the Fender canvas.
And the cost is manageable.
I just ordered a new Fender 68 Custom DLX reverb to replace my first ever Fender a Hot Rod DLX3. I got the HR DLX not even 2 months ago.

I'm really happy with all the distortion and tonal options I have, for now at least.
It's really fun, and the Fender tone has been inspirational for me. I'm playing much more with just clean and light distortion/crunch than ever before. I used to be a high gain with the pre set to at least 8 all the way to 11.
I've learned that there is more tone and clarity when the gain is turned down and the base tone of the amp is really good.

 

[Candiria]

Thick boosted tone -- I think the Orthos might be good.

I just got an Orthos, and it does modern high gain with a really nice clean channel.

It does not really have a "shared" eq. The clean channel and lead channel have their own eq. You just get 2 master volumes. Both channels have a bright switch and a voice. I like the bright switch for getting that tube screamer chug without the extra noise of the pedal. Top and Bottom controls are great for tweaking for low volume or different cabinets. The more I play it, the more I like it.

I prefer Rhodes and Diezel over Mesa (I played them for years). Just tighter and more articulation. Rhodes (KSR now) Orthos or Gemini -- if you need midi. The Diezel Lil Fokker has some great reviews.

The Mark V has so many options, but how many do you actually use?

Yea by shared EQ I meant that it's essentially a 4 channel amp due to the dual masters/loops etc, but with a shared EQ on the two clean and another on the two lead channels.

I would probably play with all the modes of the Mark V, but for most of my playing it would set to Clean/Fat, Mark I, Extreme/Mark IV.

How do you have the Orthos set up? Is it easy to get separate rhythm and lead tones on the lead channel using the voice/bright switches? The Gemini offers a lot more, but I'm not sure if it would be my dream amp, or overkill. It also pushes the price point from the Dual Recish Orthos into the Engl-Diezel territory.

Welcome.

Yes, LOT's of gear knowledgable and experienced people on this forum.
I've learned a lot since joining a few months ago.
The preferred gear on this forum tends to be on the expensive side, and from what members say and describe, it's money well spent.
But, I don't want to spend the kind of money that the best of the best amps require.
I no longer gig and don't have a need for ultra high end and gigging quality construction and the prices that go with them.

The following is not the preferred or recommended amp option, but I'll throw it out there anyway.
For me, I've discovered something I never considered before, a great clean Fender amp and some great quality pedals.
I always preferred guitar into amp with an amp that could do good clean and provide good high gain.
Once I tried the Fender and pedal set up I am now hooked.

Thanks!

When I first got back into playing about 18 months or so ago that was what I was going to do. I got a little Egnater Tweaker and some pedals, and I didn't really like it. Now I didn't have the right pedals at the time. I didn't know about Wampler, Empress, Diamond, Red Witch or the 800,000 other high end pedal makers lol. That's something I'm potentially open to because like you I'm not gigging, I'm playing at home, trying to get recording equipment, and jamming every once in a while with some friends.

That said the "finding a distortion pedal" path is even more complicated than the "finding an amp" path. It's not nearly as expensive, but there are so many options, and really that would be a thread for TGP I suppose

I'm actually really looking forward to BIAS desktop, because I think it would be helpful for when I want some random tones of amps I don't have. Kind of like an alternative to having a bunch of different flavored pedals.

 

[rabies]

Diezel.


They have them at guitar center now. 30 day return policy.
Thank me later.

+1 I got a 100 watt einstein and it's a demi-god. if you want to have daffy duck sounding leads like LoG metal band then get the Mark series.

Also, never liked the fact that Mesa's were fixed bias. Seems convenient but it's none of their business...

I didn't know GC had diezels, need to check it out. they're way too loud for that guitar room. BUT diezels don't have that awesome 50/100 watt switch that Rivera and Mesa have!

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Default.aspx?internal=1&browser=&fsrc=diezel&src=diezel

but new diezels are waaay too expensive compared to mesa's. But my used einstein cost me $1650 not too bad. also, remember that the warranty is not transferrable with Diezels but it is with Mesa.

 

[4406cuda]

Thanks guys!

@cuda

The 5153 is something I'll look into, probably the 100w head though because of the problem you mention with the clean/rhythm channel. I'll look into the Pod with the 4CM. I'm like illiterate when it comes to anything beyond guitar/pedal/amp.

@Glass

That's too funny dude. I've been playing mostly unplugged lately too lol. I just have no clue what direction to go in because it seems the best choices aren't really easy to track down and play, you know. I know I like the Mark tone and I can find a Mark V easily, but a Rhodes, Peters, Diezel, or Engl? The only shot I have there is an Engl, and from what I've played/heard it's not really what I'm looking for.

I think I might focus on the Gemini, but it's way expensive when compared to a used Mark V. Diezel is another expensive option, but I would go used, and could save for however long it takes and flip the Roadster. Is there like a Rig-Talk be all end all Diezel thread because I'm kind of clueless on them.

You're welcome.

The 100 watt 5150 does not have midi, which might be a factor for.

 

[rabies]

Diezel.


They have them at guitar center now. 30 day return policy.
Thank me later.

+1 I got a 100 watt einstein and it's a demi-god. if you want to have daffy duck sounding leads like LoG metal band then get the Mark series.

Also, never liked the fact that Mesa's were fixed bias. Seems convenient but it's none of their business...

I didn't know GC had diezels, need to check it out. they're way too loud for that guitar room. BUT diezels don't have that awesome 50/100 watt switch that Rivera and Mesa have!

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Default.aspx?internal=1&browser=&fsrc=diezel&src=diezel

but new diezels are waaay too expensive compared to mesa's. But my used einstein cost me $1650 not too bad. also, remember that the warranty is not transferrable with Diezels but it is with Mesa.

I'm not sure anyone ever needs a warranty with Diezel.
I only mentioned the guitar center bit, because you can either go play them there, or buy one, see if you like it. Then take it back, and find a used one.

that's a good kalak, i like that idea. just returned my POD HD500x to sweetwater. rent for free (well you have to pay shipping back).

 

[Candiria]

I'm shocked that rig-talk users are recommending Diezel

My local GC carries PRS, Tom Anderson, and EBMM, and they used to be a Mesa dealer as well. I'm going to give them a call and see if they plan on stocking Diezel because that would be awesome. I'd definitely go used though, they're just too expensive new over here, like how Mesa is in Europe.

I'm still thinking Gemini at this point, but the D Moll looks pretty awesome. How are the master volumes on Diezels? I don't need gigging volume, just moderate and jamming levels. How do they sound an lower volumes? Sometimes I play late at night, and in house volume isn't a problem, but I need something that isn't going to be constantly shaking the house and carrying through walls and into the neighbors' houses.

 

[HRC51]

How do you have the Orthos set up? Is it easy to get separate rhythm and lead tones on the lead channel using the voice/bright switches?


You can use any 2 button 1/4" TRS footswitch to control master, bright, voice, gain. You could also use a boost pedal for some extra volume/gain.

Master volumes: Diezel's are very good. Keep their tone pretty far down.
I think the Rhodes master volume's are even better. I can play at night at conversation levels, and the amp sounds amazing.

Happy hunting.

 

[C1-ocaster]

That said the "finding a distortion pedal" path is even more complicated than the "finding an amp" path. It's not nearly as expensive, but there are so many options, and really that would be a thread for TGP I suppose

I'm actually really looking forward to BIAS desktop, because I think it would be helpful for when I want some random tones of amps I don't have. Kind of like an alternative to having a bunch of different flavored pedals.

No doubt on the pedal thing.
When I started playing in the late 70's there weren't nearly the huge variety of pedals we have these days.
I read a lot on hear and watched YT video's to get an idea of which distortion pedals might give me what I want.
That's how I ended up with the Ecstasy Red and Triple Wreck. I thought I would get both and then pick one and sell the other.
Once I started using both I decided I HAD to keep both.
Those go with a Fulltone FullDrive 2 all accented with TC Electronics Hall of Fame reverb and Flashback delay pedals, with a Dunlop Cry Baby Wah and I'm set. Didn't want too many pedals and with these I'm now enjoying playing much more than still shopping.

I had a Digitech RP255 multi-effects pedal processor but found it too cumbersome. Really wanted to just put my fingers on the knobs and twist and play. I'm a pedal convert now.

In the future I'd like to try a guitar processor in the likes of an Axe FX. There are some much lower cost GP's that sound really good. Kinda cool that it can take the place of the amp and pedals, just run it into a clean power amp and nice speakers and go. And the recordability is amazing.

For now though I'm still diggin the more organic qualities of tube amps and pedals.

 

[C1-ocaster]

I'm shocked that rig-talk users are recommending Diezel

My local GC carries PRS, Tom Anderson, and EBMM, and they used to be a Mesa dealer as well. I'm going to give them a call and see if they plan on stocking Diezel because that would be awesome. I'd definitely go used though, they're just too expensive new over here, like how Mesa is in Europe.

I'm still thinking Gemini at this point, but the D Moll looks pretty awesome. How are the master volumes on Diezels? I don't need gigging volume, just moderate and jamming levels. How do they sound an lower volumes? Sometimes I play late at night, and in house volume isn't a problem, but I need something that isn't going to be constantly shaking the house and carrying through walls and into the neighbors' houses.

Not many GC's around me carry the higher dollar amps like Diezel.
In the Chicago and NW Indiana area we have like 9-10 GC's.
The GC around the middle of the city has some Diezel and Engl amps so I finally got a chance to try out an Egnl.
It was the Engl Screamer 50. SWEET amp. Deep and guttural high gain with a really nice clean channel.

They've got 3 Diezel's in the store right now, Herbert 180, Hagen 100-4ch, and a Lil Fokker 100.
Blemished Hagen for $3700 and a blemmed Lil Fokker for $2200.

I don't know GC's return policy in Europe, but in the states you can get most anything they sell and try it at home and you've got 30 days to try it out. If you don't want it or don't want to pay that much then take it back to the local GC, no questions asked.
If you want to try it for 60 days, then get a GC extended warranty that gives you 60 days to return it.
If you keep the amp and don't want the GC warranty you can cancel/return the warranty and get a refund.
Things like software and mics have a different return policy, cause most people don't want a mic that's been spit and breathed upon. Returned mics would need some disinfecting, some more than others depending on the singers personal hygiene habits.

 

[Candiria]

How do you have the Orthos set up? Is it easy to get separate rhythm and lead tones on the lead channel using the voice/bright switches?


You can use any 2 button 1/4" TRS footswitch to control master, bright, voice, gain. You could also use a boost pedal for some extra volume/gain.

Master volumes: Diezel's are very good. Keep their tone pretty far down.
I think the Rhodes master volume's are even better. I can play at night at conversation levels, and the amp sounds amazing.

Happy hunting.

Thanks for the info dude!

 

[Candiria]

No doubt on the pedal thing.
When I started playing in the late 70's there weren't nearly the huge variety of pedals we have these days.
I read a lot on hear and watched YT video's to get an idea of which distortion pedals might give me what I want.
That's how I ended up with the Ecstasy Red and Triple Wreck. I thought I would get both and then pick one and sell the other.
Once I started using both I decided I HAD to keep both.
Those go with a Fulltone FullDrive 2 all accented with TC Electronics Hall of Fame reverb and Flashback delay pedals, with a Dunlop Cry Baby Wah and I'm set. Didn't want too many pedals and with these I'm now enjoying playing much more than still shopping.

I had a Digitech RP255 multi-effects pedal processor but found it too cumbersome. Really wanted to just put my fingers on the knobs and twist and play. I'm a pedal convert now.

In the future I'd like to try a guitar processor in the likes of an Axe FX. There are some much lower cost GP's that sound really good. Kinda cool that it can take the place of the amp and pedals, just run it into a clean power amp and nice speakers and go. And the recordability is amazing.

For now though I'm still diggin the more organic qualities of tube amps and pedals.

Yea, you might want to check out an 11 Rack, or even a Kemper instead of the Axe. This is not from personal experience, but most say the Kemper feels more tube like. I agree though, I like having the pedals right in front of me, and being able to tweak them and stuff.

Not many GC's around me carry the higher dollar amps like Diezel.
In the Chicago and NW Indiana area we have like 9-10 GC's.
The GC around the middle of the city has some Diezel and Engl amps so I finally got a chance to try out an Egnl.
It was the Engl Screamer 50. SWEET amp. Deep and guttural high gain with a really nice clean channel.

They've got 3 Diezel's in the store right now, Herbert 180, Hagen 100-4ch, and a Lil Fokker 100.
Blemished Hagen for $3700 and a blemmed Lil Fokker for $2200.

I don't know GC's return policy in Europe, but in the states you can get most anything they sell and try it at home and you've got 30 days to try it out. If you don't want it or don't want to pay that much then take it back to the local GC, no questions asked.
If you want to try it for 60 days, then get a GC extended warranty that gives you 60 days to return it.
If you keep the amp and don't want the GC warranty you can cancel/return the warranty and get a refund.
Things like software and mics have a different return policy, cause most people don't want a mic that's been spit and breathed upon. Returned mics would need some disinfecting, some more than others depending on the singers personal hygiene habits.

Yea I've definitely taken advantage of GC's return policy before, especially with used stuff. Their used site is probably the best part about them. I had no idea the one in Chicago stocked Diezel. I was there about a year ago, I went with my wife to see the Phils play the Cubs. We stayed in the loop right by Michigan Ave, up on Wacker Ave. I would have found a way to get there if I knew they had Diezel's in stock lol.

I'm definitely going to call my local one because there's like at least 8 that I know of in the general area, but only the one has carried a decent amount of high end stuff.

 

[ke2]

I'm shocked that rig-talk users are recommending Diezel

My local GC carries PRS, Tom Anderson, and EBMM, and they used to be a Mesa dealer as well. I'm going to give them a call and see if they plan on stocking Diezel because that would be awesome. I'd definitely go used though, they're just too expensive new over here, like how Mesa is in Europe.

I'm still thinking Gemini at this point, but the D Moll looks pretty awesome. How are the master volumes on Diezels? I don't need gigging volume, just moderate and jamming levels. How do they sound an lower volumes? Sometimes I play late at night, and in house volume isn't a problem, but I need something that isn't going to be constantly shaking the house and carrying through walls and into the neighbors' houses.

A little over TV volume
But this is just a 1x12 (EVM)

When run through a 2x12 or 4x12, it gets "more"..

 

[Candiria]

Thanks a lot dude I appreciate that! Definitely seems controllable.

Has anyone tried pulling two tubes from the Rhodes stuff to run the amp at 50 watts? I don't need the clean headroom of 100w, but I wouldn't want to order the 50 watter if there was a big difference in tone in the distorted sounds.

 

[HRC51]

Has anyone tried pulling two tubes from the Rhodes stuff to run the amp at 50 watts? I don't need the clean headroom of 100w, but I wouldn't want to order the 50 watter if there was a big difference in tone in the distorted sounds.

I have not done it, because there is no need really. However, Kyle Rhodes said this is OK to do. He said most of his orders are for the 100W versions.