the price of equipment has gotten incredible.

  • Thread starter Thread starter dr.underhill
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Atropos_Project":2boj4bch said:
Housing, vehicles, and just the general cost of living are the ones that blow my mind, especially considering what a single-income family of 3+ used to be able to actually acquire on an average income decades ago.

If I remember correct .... Minimum wage was originally set at a rate that one person could work 40 hours a week & afford a wife, two kids, house, two cars & a living. That changed in 1972. Today you would need to make several times minimum wage to afford that.

I make a little more than 125% of the average income in Seattle & do not make enough to make a living .... let alone anything else on the list. Right now I make about half what I did 5 / 10 years ago.
About 3% of the US population makes $66 grand a year or more today.
There really is not a middle class in the US anymore ..... or at least anything like it was....
 
I've found there to be many more affordable options for decent quality stuff than there were back in the day. ymmv
 
rbasaria":143f9xit said:
...got curious and started looking at salaries in the 80s. Average US salary was something around 12k a year...and that was the equivalent of about 40k today....but you could do A LOT more with 12k in the 80s than you can with 40k today...

You are correct. Inflation may explain the difference in absolute dollar price from decade to decade but what most people notice in their daily lives is buying power and/or standard of living which has decreased substantially really since at least the 1950's I would say. Someone with some formal education in economics might be able to explain this more clearly with more accurate language but you no doubt get the point if you go to the grocery store or buy basic necessities of daily life. I say 1950s because this was our little party we threw for ourselves after WWII in the U.S. This was a time when someone with a high school diploma and a decent sent of morals and work ethic could feed, cloth and house a family. Fast forward to 2013. If you are a small family with both parents who are both college educated and both working you "might" be able to do the same thing. Everyone else is falling behind. Of course, normal modern living includes a lot of "stuff" that wasn't around or wasn't necessary in the 1950's. Cell phone plan, cable TV, Air conditioning, car for every adult in the home...

We will no doubt see a relentless decline in living standard going forward. This is driven primarily by energy supplies. Petroleum being the primary energy resource of industrial economies is the lynch pin for economic growth. A $10/barrel the U.S. economy hums along very nicely. At $100/barrel it shits and dies. Since U.S. domestic production peaked in the 70's (remember the oil embargo, that was OPEC telling everyone who's in charge now) we have seen a shift in U.S. economic activities in response to this startling fact. From manufacturing and farming, to technology, to information, to the so called service economy (a shell game). Now OPEC (read Saudi Arabia) has peaked. Now global petroleum supplies are on the way down, not up, for the first time ever. So what to we do. Well, we tried making finance and banking the backbone of the economy, an economy based on economic activity for the sake of economic activity. Interesting scam. That didn't work out so well. The latest plans seems to be a combination of money printing and accounting fraud. Any bets on how that plays out? Ever hear of the Weimar republic?

The problems created by the unavoidable decline in energy supply going forward is compounded by several side effects of abundant energy supplies of the preceding 100 years, namely overpopulation and climate change. There is a lot of talk about the U.S. becoming energy independent on the heels of shale oil and fracking tight rock for natural gas. I could expound about how this isn't going to work but I'm tired of typing so suffice it to say its bullshit. If you'd like to learn why check out

http://kunstler.com/

http://peakoil.com/

http://www.peakoil.net/

to get you started.


Having said that, I do think that a lot of countries will become "energy independent" in the not distant future, just not in the way everyone has got in mind. That is to say at a much lower state of energy consumption (read economic activity) based on whatever happens to be a locally available to you. Of course, a lot of this can be mitigated or minimized by some changes now, such as reactivating small city and towns, relocalizing food production and manufacturing, and deglobalizing the economy. 10,000 mile supply chains for goods and materials don't work in a declining energy economy. The bugga boo is overpopulation. We need to not just decrease the human population growth rate, we have to reverse it into a negative growth rate. And how do you convince people to do that? how do you convince people to do anything when the problem is so pernicious. After all, today does't seem that different from yesterday and tomorrow might not be that different from today, but over the long haul the trend is obvious. Yet we can choose to act or nature will employee more blunt instruments.

So there, that's why a bolt on guitar costs $1,500.
 
DEFINITION OF INFLATION: Inflation is the loss of constant purchasing value of the dollar, caused by an increase out of 'thin air' of the supply of money and debt creation by the financial system.

Ponder these charts -

We have lost 89% of the purchasing power of a dollar.



Since the USD is not backed by something tangible, like gold, the CPI has been on a rocket ride.



Add to inflation, free money printed out of thin air and introduced into the economy. This is the double whammy.



We're fucked......
 
Supply and demand of the dollar is the same as any commodity.

As Steve mentioned, when money is created out of thin air thru issuances of give checks, like tax refunds and every free money benefit, money is just created. Someone may call some accounting into play, but it is all deficit spending. So it is money out of thin air.
 
Good points on how money is disappearing- its DESIGNED to under the current system (fractional reserve banking/fiat currency)-

In the current age everything is filtered through Money and whether or not it makes financial sense- hence morals and ethics get second shrift
 
dr.underhill":1eqa39l5 said:
lots of interesting takes on this. i was mainly speaking about what had transpired price-wise on the brands/models that were availible back 50yrs ago. i indeed agree on the unbelievably wide range of equipment out there now. i know a majority are imported from asia, but as several stated the overall quality has improved a ton. i remember some of the first MIJ stuff as being only so-so in the beginning,but it did not take long at all before the quality improved tremendously. let's not forget the original designs were relentlessly copied from strats,le pauls, etc. etc. resulting in the now legendary "pre-lawsuit" models. so after several years of honing their skills making copies the transition to their own designs displayed some excellent designs and a committment to quality control that could/should have been emulated by several US makers (won't mention any names-don't have to).
and while i agree the increases in prices have affected many different areas of commodities- when i think about being able to buy a pre-cbs fender for maybe a hundred dollars over what was new prices and then to have seen stock color late 50 early 60s strats going for 50, 60 thousand dollars it blows my mind. a $400 guitar in 65 going for $60,000 in 2002 is on a level that still just makes me shake my head in disbelief. when you consider exotic cars ,take for example a 1965 Jag XKE with a sticker price new of around $5800- working the same precentages of appreciation- that would put it at roughly $839,000.oo- and you can find a super clean 65 XKE today for under $100,000. on something like a house just say Frank Lloyd Wright's "Falling Water" which when completed in the mid 30s cost $75,000 (just the house+$8,000 in his fees) which when adjusted to current inflation/etc. would cost $2.4 million to build in 2012- if you use the same increases as that strat i referred to- would run $11,250,000.00.
my point is that maybe without the exception of some art i can't think of anything that comes close to those appreciated vintage guitar prices up into late 2000's.
i'm just glad, as i stated earlier, for the range of equipment out there now. i just couldn't pay what the going prices are on upper end amps/instruments , vintage for sure, but even currently manufactored stuff as well.


What you are missing in your comparisons is the impact of supply/scarcity on current prices and fair market values.

You can't compare the appreciation in value of a '59 Les Paul to the inflationary values of commodities (e.g., staple groceries, oil, gas, etc.) and other consumer items such as homes, appliances, etc. Why? Because of supply/scarcity.

There are only a finite number of vintage guitars from each year of production. In comparison, commodities, homes, appliances, etc. are still being produced today and, for all intents and purposes, are no different than the ones produced in '59.

It is the limited supply of vintage musical instruments (and, to a lesser extent, a change in the quality of materials and workmanship that go into the manufacture of musical instruments) that dictates their current market value, not the application of observed inflationary increases over time to the original historical sale prices of these instruments.

It's apples to oranges.
 
Gibson guitars are so hideously overpriced now its ridiculous. Still picking one up tomorrow though. :lol: :LOL:
 
timeslip":235zt80c said:
Fantastic thread. The market here in Australia is quite different. Selection is limited and prices astronomical (even used gear) with a 15% import tax on anything over $1000.

For example a Mesa rectifier is at least $3500 or $2000 used... :thumbsdown:


Yup, it's worse than that.
Mesa Mark V has a retail for $5,999.00. Usued to sell for $4500 thereabouts, bogner xtc $6,500 too
They can all go get funcked!

Tax isn't that bad on items, it's the people in the middle who all want a cut, importers, distributors then dealers. Easier to go direct these days

:rock:
 
The US is just balancing out with most of the rest of the world. Most of the world lives with much less. ..... and as mention the gold standard being removed. It really does not matter what anyone does or does not do ....with nothing under our money it is only a matter of time till it is a mess way beyond repair.
 
stephen sawall":3p5t3ouf said:
The US is just balancing out with most of the rest of the world. Most of the world lives with much less. ..... and as mention the gold standard being removed. It really does not matter what anyone does or does not do ....with nothing under our money it is only a matter of time till it is a mess way beyond repair.

That's right. And, there is no equilibrium in the money markets. Right now, the global debt is 51,000,000,000,000 (TRILLION). If you have a look at the debt map, it is strange to me that the worlds so called "most prosperous" and "world leaders" are the biggest in debt. Who owes who? The fucking government owes you.....that's who. If this was your household budget, you would be living on the street scraping crumbs, skint and busted.

Right now there is no way to get out from under this. Governments, politicians, leaders, etc. have failed us all. Best to get it while you can because this shit is going to implode.

http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock
 
anarchy_circle-a.gif
 
.......One nation under several questionable gods with liberty and justice for any one that can afford it.
 
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