The Problem With Modeling Amps

  • Thread starter Thread starter SavageRiffer
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I dunno if I agree that tube amps hold their value. They are getting harder and harder to sell. You just can't flip them like you used to. As more and more people convert to smaller amps, and modelers and such, I really don't think a lot of tube amps will be worth much in the future. Yes, you will have the niche brands that will always bring in money for "collectors", but across the board, I don't think so. The world is moving toward smaller convenient digital packages for everything. Guitar will follow in time. Look at how small the vinyl world is compared to the iPhone/MP3 world. Not even comparable... and it only took what? 20 years?
 
I think there is a lot of emphasis on the term "investment," but I'd like to clarify that point. Any major purchase is an investment whether you are a professional or home noodler like me. For those of us who don't have the money to burn, $1500 in a modeler would be a major disappointment when version 2.0 comes around. I suppose it depends on how well the company supports the old product. I actually don't know if Fractal, Kemper, or Line6 do a good job of supporting old models. If they're anything like Microsoft, then good luck with that! When it comes to repairs, at least most tube amps can be fixed after warranty expires. With Modelers, you have to wonder what you would do with a $1500 Helix that dies a couple of years later. It would seem as pointless as repairing the circuitboard of a computers video card instead of replacing the card because it seems like finding a qualified tech would be much harder, and troubleshooting and repairing complex circuitry seems very expensive. It's probably not like repairing a VCR. However, I really don't know much about these specifics so I'd like to learn more in those aspects.

Anyawy, I do see the benefit of an AxeFX or Kemper and will probably get one soon. I wasn't always like that before, but using a Zerrer for a while for practice and recording through my audio interface, I realize what a great asset a quality modeler can be. Not that the Zerrer is a modeler, but for my uses, an AxeFX would be super cool. Five years ago, I didn't think they sounded all that great, but from what I've tried out lately, they seem to have raised the bar.
 
SavageRiffer":2v9xdu3u said:
I think there is a lot of emphasis on the term "investment," but I'd like to clarify that point. Any major purchase is an investment whether you are a professional or home noodler like me. For those of us who don't have the money to burn, $1500 in a modeler would be a major disappointment when version 2.0 comes around. I suppose it depends on how well the company supports the old product. I actually don't know if Fractal, Kemper, or Line6 do a good job of supporting old models. If they're anything like Microsoft, then good luck with that! When it comes to repairs, at least most tube amps can be fixed after warranty expires. With Modelers, you have to wonder what you would do with a $1500 Helix that dies a couple of years later. It would seem as pointless as repairing the circuitboard of a computers video card instead of replacing the card because it seems like finding a qualified tech would be much harder, and troubleshooting and repairing complex circuitry seems very expensive. It's probably not like repairing a VCR. However, I really don't know much about these specifics so I'd like to learn more in those aspects.

Anyawy, I do see the benefit of an AxeFX or Kemper and will probably get one soon. I wasn't always like that before, but using a Zerrer for a while for practice and recording through my audio interface, I realize what a great asset a quality modeler can be. Not that the Zerrer is a modeler, but for my uses, an AxeFX would be super cool. Five years ago, I didn't think they sounded all that great, but from what I've tried out lately, they seem to have raised the bar.
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Good point. Lately, I use an Eleven Rack for late night playing. I don't use Protools and I don't want to buy the expansion pack so I can use it with other DAW's. So another factor is support drop off.
 
tubortski":3g21yvhd said:
SavageRiffer":3g21yvhd said:
I think there is a lot of emphasis on the term "investment," but I'd like to clarify that point. Any major purchase is an investment whether you are a professional or home noodler like me. For those of us who don't have the money to burn, $1500 in a modeler would be a major disappointment when version 2.0 comes around. I suppose it depends on how well the company supports the old product. I actually don't know if Fractal, Kemper, or Line6 do a good job of supporting old models. If they're anything like Microsoft, then good luck with that! When it comes to repairs, at least most tube amps can be fixed after warranty expires. With Modelers, you have to wonder what you would do with a $1500 Helix that dies a couple of years later. It would seem as pointless as repairing the circuitboard of a computers video card instead of replacing the card because it seems like finding a qualified tech would be much harder, and troubleshooting and repairing complex circuitry seems very expensive. It's probably not like repairing a VCR. However, I really don't know much about these specifics so I'd like to learn more in those aspects.

Anyawy, I do see the benefit of an AxeFX or Kemper and will probably get one soon. I wasn't always like that before, but using a Zerrer for a while for practice and recording through my audio interface, I realize what a great asset a quality modeler can be. Not that the Zerrer is a modeler, but for my uses, an AxeFX would be super cool. Five years ago, I didn't think they sounded all that great, but from what I've tried out lately, they seem to have raised the bar.
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Good point. Lately, I use an Eleven Rack for late night playing. I don't use Protools and I don't want to buy the expansion pack so I can use it with other DAW's. So another factor is support drop off.
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Kind of a funny story but I bought an Eleven Rack when they first came out, but there was a problem with the unit that their tech guys couldn't figre out, so I was granted a refund which is rarely ever done. I thought the Eleven Rack was pretty darned good sounding, but back then they only had the default models. I'm sure they have a much wider selection of amps and effects by now. One of the features that attracted me to it was that it was described as having an amp-like feel. It kind of did in a way, but not as good as Fractal or Kemper. Still, it's a great unit if you don't run into issues with the software.
 
It is like having sex.......

Tubes gives that experience of beeing inside with a pleasant warm feeling and some beautifull squeeks when you hit the right tone or rythem.
Modeling is like using a condem on a silicon copy or worse an inflatable wo-man.

Tubes it is............ :D :D :D
 
I've owned and tried a lot of digital stuff, and yes they get outdated pretty fast. Beside the out dating thing I don't like them. But I'll give you a few quick examples of outdated tube amps:
Guys who bought a Friedman BE100 want the new updated 2016 version. Splawn QR user want the b+ option. Diezel Herbert user want the MK2 with the bigger transformers.

IMHO its a "computer generation growing up" issue. In these days we think (also because of marketing) that nothing can't last long.

A few months ago I bought a 76 JMP 2203. And the Marshall sounds awesome. In comparison with my first time playing a Kemper (with headphones) I thought it sounds like a line6 pod. So not interested at all. Same thing with playing a Kemper through a cab. The sound is more the cab than the Kemper.

For me are and will be guitar amps the one and only deal.
 
Bato":1sacle0k said:
I've owned and tried a lot of digital stuff, and yes they get outdated pretty fast. Beside the out dating thing I don't like them. But I'll give you a few quick examples of outdated tube amps:
Guys who bought a Friedman BE100 want the new updated 2016 version. Splawn QR user want the b+ option. Diezel Herbert user want the MK2 with the bigger transformers.

IMHO its a "computer generation growing up" issue. In these days we think (also because of marketing) that nothing can't last long.

A few months ago I bought a 76 JMP 2203. And the Marshall sounds awesome. In comparison with my first time playing a Kemper (with headphones) I thought it sounds like a line6 pod. So not interested at all. Same thing with playing a Kemper through a cab. The sound is more the cab than the Kemper.

For me are and will be guitar amps the one and only deal.
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It's true that amps too depreciate as newer models come out; however, in comparison to the depreciation of digital/computer related products, it's usually much less. The depreciation is not only monetary but also in the desire for the product. In any case, I agree that amps rule and about the Kemper. I used a Kemper through an already setup rig with a Friedman 4x12. I thought it actually sounded fairly convincing, but the dimension and punch and all that just wasn't there.
 
For me it's more important to find his sound with an amp. I couldn't be happier with my Diezel and my JMP.
Finding my sound with a digital device wasn't possible for me. I've tried it thousand times. With tube amps only hundred times. ;)
 
I don't worry about it. The Kemper is great. I had it for at least 2 years. It has not become out-dated. The technology is amazing. Buy one used if you're worried about losing money.
 
Sure a tube amp will last decades while a CPU gizmo with encoder knobs and such probably won't, but that really only matters if you're actually going to keep it for decades. And the tube amp does require new tubes and such every so often, which over those decades will add up too.

Plus there's owning something that you'll actually play and enjoy. So if that's a modeler, I wouldnt worry about it.

Granted, there's a remote possibility that a real amp will hold or appreciate in value over time while a modeler almost surely will not. If that's the concern, just buy the modeler and some index tracking ETFs instead. Much more likely to get a return on that than any guitar gear.

That said, I'm avoiding these types of modelers for essentially this reason. I'm happy with BIAS on my phone, so I don't want to spend a ton more money investing in hardware like an AFX or Kemper when I already own hardware that can do it. I owned an AFXII long time ago and am happier with my current BIAS experience.
 
I guess I'm to ham fisted to feel a consistent difference. I've played various tube Amps, various modellers and some SS Amps over the years and they all felt different. Some tube amps feel shitty to play for me. Some feel good. Same for different amp models in any given modeller.
 
interesting conversation

summary

buy a modeling amp
dont buy a modeling amp
buy both
buy nothing and debate endlessly
 
I think the bottom line is that if you're concerned with investments, buy an investment that you want. If you're concerned with music gear, buy the music gear you want. Maybe they overlap, though I have doubts about any music gear as a quality investment unless you're really reaching to diversity somehow.
 
What it came down to for me was the sound of my guitar coming out of the PA. Which is all that really matters anyway. What your audience and fans are going to hear. I used to be all about what it sounded like to me on stage. But most of the time I could barely hear myself anyway cause the soundman or singer was whining for me to turn it down so I was depending more on my front stage monitors anyway. When I was finally able to get the same sound as my amp mic'ed through the PA out of my AX8 running direct to the PA that did it for me. Things had changed. I had my Axe and Kemper for 3 years before that happened though. Took a lot of firmware updates and tweaking to reach that point but now is has for me anyway. I can't tell the difference between the two. When I AB my AX8 rig running direct to the PA with my EVH halfstack mic'ed and going through the PA I can't tell the difference. Granted I have 44 year old ears and 25 of those have been spent with cranked halstacks and drumkits blasting in my ears. But if I can't tell the difference then no way some average person that comes to our shows will be able to tell the difference. Plus we use stage scrims so you can't tell if there's an amp behind it or not. Bottom line is do what makes you happy. What makes me happy is getting my sound without having to lug around 4x12 cab's anymore. I had back surgery 2 years ago so going this digital route will allow me to keep gigging many more years. And I have a Kemper and a Axe-FX XL too but just prefer the convenience of the all in one AX8 so it's what gets gigged. At home I use all of them hear and there. And I still have my amps too.
 
Precisely why I will buy neither a car, a computer, nor a television. They all depreciate terribly.
 
zentman":2bepk754 said:
Precisely why I will buy neither a car, a computer, nor a television. They all depreciate terribly.
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lol......exactly!

Buy what the fuck you want to use and enjoy it. Chances are you'll depreciate faster &/or die before your gear does!
 
I really think we are way past the "which tone is best" conversation to be honest. Everyone knows that tube amp tone can't be matched, especially since the modeling is a copy of the tube amp tone.

I think it is about convenience, size, weight and other issues. I don't gig anymore but if I was still doing shows, after two hernia surgeries, I think I would be more likely to use smaller more convenient setups.

If money wasn't an option, I'd have a Friedman with two 4x12s. :)
 
If I only bought items to be monetary investments, then I would have other hobbies than guitar gizmos.
 
lessthan12":22kcfjxm said:
danyeo":22kcfjxm said:
Try S-Gear or Bias desktop. For $140 bucks they sound almost as good as Fractal's stuff.
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Have bias, have an Axe FX II, had a helix and a Kemper. Bias and s gear aren't even close but to each their own
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Through my monitors the differences weren't night and day, and the gap between all the digital devices and plug ins has shrunk. Sure the Axe and Kemper are at the top but when one costs $140 and the other over 2k there isn't $1860 of a difference. But yeah, I do like having a piece of hardware to plug into different cabs, monitors, or whatever else.
 
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