The Real Reason(s) Amplifier Modeling Doesn't Stand a Chance

BeZo

BeZo

Well-known member
I can think of several reasons why amplifier modeling doesn't stack up to real rigs. Let's start with the rig itself. It's a decade plus into amplifier modeling now, and I still haven't seen a powered 4x12 FRFR cab come into prominence yet. I've been baffled by this, until I recently figured out why. There is this school of thought that you can replace an amplifier rig with a modeler and not need a rig. Nobody seems to want to take into account that the amplification part of the rig plays a HUGE role in the feel and response of the instrument. That guitar - amplifier relationship is more than a cable. It's volume. Feedback. Sustain. Why is there no wall of sound option for a modeler. Yes, you can get the tone with a modeler, but until there is a monster flat response 4x12 option to give you the volume of a cranked amplifier, it will never feel like an amplifier.

Basically, as musicians, we need to stop being so selfish. Our rigs are not just for our monitors. I don't bring an 8x10 to shows so I can hear it. It's for everybody. Stage volume matters, and shows suffer because modelers don't move air. If you want to be an amplifier, amplify something!
 
A 4x12 FRFR still won't feel the same. You might as well just throw a couple extra PA speakers on stage.

What will get you there is a modeler through a power amp into a normal guitar 4x12. I have a rig set up just like that: my Fractal FM3 presets have two output paths, one with a cab block that can go to FOH or DAW and another without a cab block that goes to a Powerstage 170 to run through a guitar cab.
 
Modelers are just posers anyway, everyone knows that by now. It was once a shiny new toy, all bells and whistles. A "new" and better one every few months, "I can't wait" is 90% off next year.

They also love to eat and enjoy McDonalds, Burger King and Wendy's, because they can. It is real food and it can be bought instantly, no waiting or hard work. Real meat and potato guys play tube-powered amps, because they can.

YMMV. It's all about what works for you and if modeling doesn't sound like total crap to your ears, consider yourself lucky, because it does sound like shit. Everyone knows this, when played side-by-side with a decent tube amp, the modeler is a stupid toy that will get replaced by the new and better one next week.
 
I had a church gig, used a pod hd500 into the pa. it was great. The pod is not a plexi, or a twin, or a rectifier....but for what it is...it;s great. The weakness to me with line 6 is the effects, not the amp models. When I was doing the rack thing, I used a podpro into a mesa 20/20 and it kicked ass. Of course I only used 2 models...the fender for cleans and the mesa for crunch. that was in the late 90's I think. They are all just tools.
 
I will go ahead and go against the grain here. I've used a modeler with a tube power section like a KSR PA50 or even the Fryette Powerstation through a cab and cant say that it was completely different than my amps. I think if they could figure out how to make a power section respond like a tube power section we would be in good shape.
 
Modelers have their place.... unfortunately modeler players are invariably obnoxious about it.

And modelers have made modern rock recordings banal and insipid.
 
I often hear the argument that "your audience will never know the difference" and while that's probably true for non musicians, I will know the difference and I'm the one who has to play the damn thing! the song is for the audience, no doubt, but how I sound and feel while playing it has to please me first.
 
I am still firmly rooted in the tube amp world. With that said... the last two times I saw Shinedown live I wasn't thinking that Zach Meyer's tone sounded like 1s and 0s. It sounded crushing. Modeling is less about the actual tone and more about the feel. I have played the new Axe FX III, and think that Fractal is 90% there. There is a difference in the way it feels under the fingers... mainly palm muting. But no more so that switching between two different kinds of amps. IMHO.

I haven't played a show that wasn't an outdoor event when I have ever been asked to turn my amp up. Most soundguys cringe when you roll that big 100 watter and 412 into their club. When I roll in with the Captor X and the sound guy knows that I'm not going to be tearing his ears off, they get all happy.

As guitarists we get all excited about bringing out the big iron. Its fun and feels great. I've never had the master volume on my Splawn over 9:00 at a show. And I still had to attenuate the shit out of the amp. Just my personal experiences though... YMMV.
 
Here’s my thing . Each time a new Axe Fx or modeling amp comes out it’s herald the best and perfect . Then in 5 years it’s ALWAYS considered old and junk because of the latest . So at what in the present do you start to think maybe I’m just using the most recent crap that’s bad in a few years . I use axe efx for its effects in my effect loop so I’m not anti modeler . I just wondered why no one ever brings up this thought . Don’t kill me Modeler lovers . It’s a good question
 
IMO...i feel like the tube amp "generation" will dwindle with time and they'll have their place in history, the same as tube driven stereos. love the sound of a good tube amp, but i just feel like as time passes, the huge differences we may hear/feel w/tubes vs modeler (or SS) will be less than a nuance that's not worth the next generations time.

Of course i say that... tons of tube amps still being designed, manuf and delivered each year, so there's market for it.

what's the demographic disparity? anyone
 
I think it’s an apples and oranges comparison. I love both, tube amps and the AxeFx.

Simple Tube amp chain:
Guitar-> (pedals if wanted)->Amp->Cab

Simple Modeler Chain:
Guitar (pedals if wanted)->Amp->Cab->Mic (or mics) ->Preamp(EQ’d) ->FRFR speakers (or Studio Monitors)

If you took the Tube amp chain, mic’d it up, ran it through a Preamp(EQ’d) and then out to an FRFR speaker (or Studio Monitors) do you think it would sound the same as the “in the room” live feel of the tube amp chain or closer to the finished recorded sound of the Modeler chain?
 
By the time I jump into the modeling word it will probably be the Axe 5 or Axe 6 or something :LOL:

By then, it will be 95% there and won't care at that point. Plus, there won't be any tubes left anyway. Remember?
 
I just want a modeler that sounds good (big bold and 3D) without needing to tweak, or require a 30,000W PA, or a laptop to run.

The reason I enjoy tube amps is that I can fire one up and just go without sounding awful.

When I do gig again I will be bringing my Marshall, SD-1, and two 4x12s - one on each side of the drummer. The sound guy can mic everyone else but I won’t go tit for tat or else the band just won’t play the gig. I’m in my mid 30s and have nothing to prove but most sound guys I feel judge you before you even play.
 
BeZo said:
Basically, as musicians, we need to stop being so selfish. Our rigs are not just for our monitors. I don't bring an 8x10 to shows so I can hear it. It's for everybody. Stage volume matters, and shows suffer because modelers don't move air. If you want to be an amplifier, amplify something!
Click to expand...

Yeah, silent stage is great when you're playing a stadium with massive PA. But in a 500 capacity pub you can never unhear the strange void in the middle of first couple rows.
 
I saw Baroness last week at a small club(150 person capacity) they used fender and roland jazz chorus and a bunch of pedals and sounded freaking amazing. I like the band already but live was killer. Now if I had a recording of that live show, while it will sound technically identical it wouldn't be the same experience.

That's how I see amps in general vs modelers. Basically the same but then again not really.
 
I don't necessarily have an opinion on whether modelers are good or bad; they have their place and use. Two main things have kept me away from them. All the tweaking & knob turning and choice paralysis with too many amp models to pick from.
 
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