Thomann Sues Fender on Behalf of "Everyone"

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FMIC owns Leo Fender's creations; which is why they are in court over them.
This is an interesting legal theory, but why? They filed for no protection up front. There's no documentation of any sort saying they own anything. When they tried to get some, it turns out they were not following the law (waited decades too long) and were denied.

So why do you think they "own" it? They have as much evidence saying they own any intellectual property related to this as I have saying I own the empire state building. They're like the guy who says he totally owns the car but has no title or bill of sale.

And if their claim that "they did it first" and therefore own it are you acknowledging that Paul Bigsby owns the Strat headstock in Germany (by the same "it's art" theory) and Fender should have to pay royalties or cease production and destroy guitars? Or does this magical legal theory only apply to Fender and not the people they copied from?
 
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This is an interesting legal theory, but why? They filed for no protection up front. There's no documentation of any sort saying they own anything. When they tried to get some, it turns out they were not following the law (waited decades too long) and were denied.

So why do you think they "own" it? They have as much evidence saying they own any intellectual property related to this as I have saying I own the empire state building. They're like the guy who says he totally owns the car but has no title or bill of sale.

And if their claim that "they did it first" and therefore own it are you acknowledging that Paul Bigsby owns the Strat headstock in Germany (by the same "it's art" theory) and fender should have to pay royalties or cease production and destroy guitars? Or does this magical legal theory only apply to Fender and not the people they copied from?

FMIC owns Leo Fender's IP, name, rights to his designs. They can't enforce their ownership legally, and it's a longshot the courts will award them legal rights to enforce this ownership in this current round of lawsuits.

When people try to make a distinction between Leo and FMIC, it's usually incorrect. Once Leo sold Fender, he sold the rights to his original creations and designs too. Semantics, perhaps, but they and words matter...though posting FMIC isn't Leo may make people feel better; fact is, FMIC owns those original creations and designs of Leo irrespective of their ability to enforce, defend or monetize them.

Whatever happens / doesn't happen in the courts doesn't change the fact that these creations / designs / shapes were invented by Leo and are owned by FMIC.
 
FMIC owns Leo Fender's IP...
Easy to say, but it's not clear there's even a piece of IP here. It's a general legal principle that IP has to be something well defined and that other people know about. That's why we file for patents, trademarks, and copyrights and allow other people to look them up so there's no confusion. Even in the case of copyright which can be created automatically, there's supposed to be a document that is the thing that's copyrighted.

Fender doesn't have anything to point to. Not so much as a single record. All they have is a fairy-dust like belief that 72 years ago a body shape was sufficiently magical to be art (but that Bigsby's single cut a couple years earlier was totally not art and they can't be sued for that in Germany - no way).
 
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FMIC is Leo's legacy - which they own...other than EBMM which owns his Music Man legacy and original creations such as the Stingray bass and Sabre guitar.
 
I have an American Fender Tele I love. And a pile of P, J and short scale offset basses I don’t. I take that back, one J, an American Deluxe is bad ass. The rest of them are actually for sale if anyone’s interested.
Cant go wrong with an MIA Tele either...... If your looking at a Tele they are all amazing even the low end MIA ones..... I would be happy with any MIA Tele if I was after one and wouldn't be happier *_*
 
Fender at the moment is legally allowed to do what it is doing as allowed by European laws.....


Maybe this changes things but as of now Fender is still abiding by and following European laws..... :dunno:
 
Hey Kid. Some friendly advice would be to let the adults handle this conversation. The last time you chimed in on the Fender bender it was all about USA. USA. USA. I don't think you even had a clue what was going on in Europe. :dunno:

PS: I'm heading to Lake Tahoe for some vaca, so I won't be sticking around to see your childish retort.

Like I've said in a few of the other threads, if Fender's (Leo's) "art" was so damn important they should have thought about that 70+ years ago. But the straight up Strat copy companies should be shut down. But "S" shape is pretty damn generic.
 
PS: I'm heading to Lake Tahoe for some vaca, so I won't be sticking around to see your childish retort.
Save travels 311. Used to live in stateline NV many years ago. My cousin is in round hill. Take some photos for me....it's been a long time.
 
Fender at the moment is legally allowed to do what it is doing as allowed by European laws.....


Maybe this changes things but as of now Fender is still abiding by and following European laws..... :dunno:

ron-swanson-and-i-are-so-polar-opposite-but-we-would-become-v0-ecrexckc2uzb1.png
 
Hey Kid. Some friendly advice would be to let the adults handle this conversation. The last time you chimed in on the Fender bender it was all about USA. USA. USA. I don't think you even had a clue what was going on in Europe. :dunno:

PS: I'm heading to Lake Tahoe for some vaca, so I won't be sticking around to see your childish retort.

Like I've said in a few of the other threads, if Fender's (Leo's) "art" was so damn important they should have thought about that 70+ years ago. But the straight up Strat copy companies should be shut down. But "S" shape is pretty damn generic.
As said Fender is following European law......



They are breaking no laws and they are allowed to do in Europe whatever is allowed by European laws that European lawmakers pass and enforce which they are doing.....



This isnt trial by mob...... Or whatever other Banana Republic BS...... These are the laws and Fender is following the law to the extent it is allowed to and leveraging the aw in its best interest like anyone and everyone and everybody would do and does...... What is Fender doing wrong again..... Sounds to me like you're just upset over a bunch of ninny sissy BS and Fender is following the law :dunno:
 
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@311boogieman I bet you didn't know not only is Kid a stock market guru and an astrophysicist genius, he's also an expert on European law. The way he constantly beats all the experts I bet he could give Dr. Dunning and Dr. Kruger a good whooping.
Jeez......

They are following European Law afterall..... otherwise no one would be talking about this and like any company they are using the law, in this case European Law, as leverage to their own benefit in whatever way they can for their own self interest. You don't need to be a lawyer or an "expert" to understand that :dunno:
 
@311boogieman I bet you didn't know not only is Kid a stock market guru and an astrophysicist genius, he's also an expert on European law. The way he constantly beats all the experts I bet he could give Dr. Dunning and Dr. Kruger a good whooping.

He missed the point completely as usual. He keeps talking about European law. Lots of words, no substance :dunno:

The reason Europe is even in this conversation is because Fender made a cunt move. They took a Chinese strat copy company to court in Germany. They used Germany because it was a friendly (sue happy) legal environment, and they knew the Chinese company would not show up to the court date. So they got an easy default judgement in their favor. Means jack shit. Now they want to use that 'win' to go after everyone who makes or sells an "S" shaped guitar. GTFOH!

And I'm a big Fender fan/supporter :dunno:

It's like my analogy in that other thread. It would be similar to Ford suing Chevy because Chevy made a car with an engine in the front, 4 wheels, a steering wheel on the left, a roof, and was gasoline powered.
 
For god's sake, and for the umpteenth time... they're abusing a default ruling due to a (fully calculated and cherry picked) no show of the defendant (which they as such pretty much 'rigged' or set up) as though they were granted actual copyright rights to enforce to others... and this is totally not the same as merely stating "they're just following European laws" where you imply that their C&D letters have any fuckin' legal merit... Meine Gute. 😑
Let's see what *actual* European ruling with content will make them follow when Thomann is done with them. This 'garbage continent' has a legacy to uphold when it comes to laws with not allowing bullshit to flourish, unlike certain other continents. 😗😎
 
Thomann is just butthurt they won't be able to sell guitars made with slave labor wages in countries with non-existent environmental regulations.
Come up with your own designs ffs. Why is this even a point of contention?
 
He missed the point completely as usual. He keeps talking about European law. Lots of words, no substance :dunno:
Isn't that usually the case. Always talks so much and never says anything.

The reason Europe is even in this conversation is because Fender made a cunt move. They took a Chinese strat copy company to court in Germany. They used Germany because it was a friendly (sue happy) legal environment, and they knew the Chinese company would not show up to the court date. So they got an easy default judgement in their favor. Means jack shit. Now they want to use that 'win' to go after everyone who makes or sells an "S" shaped guitar. GTFOH!

And I'm a big Fender fan/supporter :dunno:

It's like my analogy in that other thread. It would be similar to Ford suing Chevy because Chevy made a car with an engine in the front, 4 wheels, a steering wheel on the left, a roof, and was gasoline powered.
I agree it was a bit of a dick move on Fender's part the way they proceeded. Plus I don't really see how a German court ruling against a Chinese company has jack shit to do with what happens in other countries. Granted I don't know how that kind of thing works in the EU.

That said I'm sort of in the middle of the road. I do agree with Fender on protecting the design against outright Strat copies, like the examples @rsm posted a few pages back. Those all could have easily been designed as "inspired by" without be a near 1:1 duplicate. Where Fender loses me is wanting to go after anything that vaguely resembles a Strat; like the Ibanez S example I gave. I think modified/inspired by Strat or general S shape is fair game for use.
 
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The problem for Fender, IMO, is their legal efforts are about 70 years late; too late.

Fender winning in the courts is a longshot; if they do win it will be challenged.


Fender's original creations and designs were so good that they inadvertently / unintentionally created an entire industry dedicated to creating copies (of varying degrees of similarity) and derivatives and got little or nothing for it. They realized the situation too late. Depending on courts / legal system to do the right thing is a roll of the dice.

70 years (even longer for the Telecaster) of copies and derivatives - that genie isn't going back in the bottle. No amount of legal wrangling is going to magically fix Fender's predicament.

Unfortunately for FMIC, their executive management is, obviously, not very smart; well, at least not as smart as their law firm that convinced them they had a case, and to spend likely millions of dollars with their law firm, destroy goodwill in the market (goodwill is an intangible asset), and eventually lose in court. Millions of dollars wasted, that could have been spent on actually improving quality, operations, designs, innovations, efficiency, etc.

I don't know where Fender found their CEO, but I wouldn't hire him to clean the bathrooms at a fast food franchise. That goes for any and all board / c-level execs at FMIC and any parent company who agreed to this course of action.

The stupidity of Fender executive management is an embarrassment. It's like they looked at Gibson's Play Authentic and said hold my wine cooler.

Maybe the damage this does to FMIC will wake up whomever owns it, and they revamp Fender into an actual functioning musical instrument company again...most likely they'll run it into the ground, squeezing every last penny from their investment as they force it to die a slow, painful, ignominious death.

SMH
 
The problem for Fender, IMO, is their legal efforts are about 70 years late; too late.

Fender winning in the courts is a longshot; if they do win it will be challenged.


Fender's original creations and designs were so good that they inadvertently / unintentionally created an entire industry dedicated to creating copies (of varying degrees of similarity) and derivatives and got little or nothing for it. They realized the situation too late. Depending on courts / legal system to do the right thing is a roll of the dice.

70 years (even longer for the Telecaster) of copies and derivatives - that genie isn't going back in the bottle. No amount of legal wrangling is going to magically fix Fender's predicament.

Unfortunately for FMIC, their executive management is, obviously, not very smart; well, at least not as smart as their law firm that convinced them they had a case, and to spend likely millions of dollars with their law firm, destroy goodwill in the market (goodwill is an intangible asset), and eventually lose in court. Millions of dollars wasted, that could have been spent on actually improving quality, operations, designs, innovations, efficiency, etc.

I don't know where Fender found their CEO, but I wouldn't hire him to clean the bathrooms at a fast food franchise. That goes for any and all board / c-level execs at FMIC and any parent company who agreed to this course of action.

The stupidity of Fender executive management is an embarrassment. It's like they looked at Gibson's Play Authentic and said hold my wine cooler.

Maybe the damage this does to FMIC will wake up whomever owns it, and they revamp Fender into an actual functioning musical instrument company again...most likely they'll run it into the ground, squeezing every last penny from their investment as they force it to die a slow, painful, ignominious death.

SMH
Adidas protection of the Stan Smith shoe is very similar. First produced in 1972, no vigorous legal defense in place for decades, copies made later on. Copy cat contended the design was utilitarian, court decided otherwise and Adidas was able to prevent people from copying the shoe.

Stan-Smith-shoe.jpg
 
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The problem for Fender, IMO, is their legal efforts are about 70 years late; too late.
It's possible if Fender pursued IP protection in Europe 70 years ago they could have gotten something. In the US, almost certainly nothing that would still apply:
  • Patents they could and did get one, but any patents were expired by the early 70s.
  • Trademark, they can trademark the Fender name but that's only useful against true forgeries rather than the improved variants like Suhr and PRS they want to target
  • Copyright - nothing copyrightable in the US. "Useful Articles" can't be copyrighted in the US. In theory the Strat headstock shape could potentially be copyrighted (serving no useful purpose), but that would belong to Bigsby not Fender.
  • Trade Dress - Only non-functional items can be trade dress, so again possibly headstock but not body shape or anything that has a function.
 
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It's possible if Fender pursued IP protection in Europe 70 years ago they could have gotten something. In the US, almost certainly nothing that would still apply:
  • Patents they could and did get one, but any patents were expired by the early 70s.
  • Trademark, they can trademark the Fender name but that's only useful against true forgeries rather than the improved variants like Suhr and PRS they want to target
  • Copyright - nothing copyrightable in the US. "Useful Articles" can't be copyrighted in the US. In theory the Strat headstock shape could potentially be copyrighted (serving no useful purpose), but that would belong to Bigsby not Fender.
  • Trade Dress - Only non-functional items can be trade dress, so again possibly headstock but not body shape or anything that has a function.
You can have guitars that are shaped similar but not identical to the Stratocaster, that do the exact same 'function.' These companies are copying the exact shape.
 

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