Tubes to Become Obsolete?

[racerevlon]

Steve,

Talked to Doug today and have some RetroValves (Red/High Gain) on the way. Should have some feedback in a few days.

Consensus: What amp comparison does everyone want to see/hear first? Options are:

Jet City JCA100H
Jet City JCA100HDM
Jet City JCA22H
Splawn Quick Rod 2008
Splawn Quick Rod 2012
Splawn Nitro
Marshall Vintage Modern 2266
Hughes & Kettner TriAmp MK II
Hughes & Kettner Trilogy
Hughes & Kettner Switchblade 100C
Ceriatone Chupacabra 50
Ceriatone AFD #35
Marshall HAZE 40C

I think that's about all the amps either already running or easy enough to connect...

Speaker/Cab choice:

Marshall 1960A V30'S
Marshall 1960B Greenbacks
Marshall 425A/B
Splawn 2x12 Small Blocks
Splawn 4x12 Small Blocks
Jet City JCA24S w/Big Blocks (Splawn)
Jet City JCA24S+ with stock Eminence-OEM speakers (Legend-like)
Avatar 2x12 Vintage with Big Blocks
Epiphone 1x12 with Splawn Big Block
Studio 7 2x12 with Celestion G12H-80'S
Whitebox Engineering 2x12 with WGS ET65S (This cab has some major grindage!)

Again, I think that's all that's easily accessible. Might be able to include my singer's Mark IIC++ and/or Mark III Red Stripe. I reserve the right to remove something from candidacy if it becomes a pain in the @$$.

Majority rule...

I'd like to hear either Splawn Quickrod through the greenback Marshall 4-12. Did he tell you why he doesn't recommend using them in every preamp slot?

Steve

Easy enough. Nothing mentioned about not using them in every preamp slot but if I had to guess I'd say it's either something about the RetroValves being more suited towards gain stages than driving effects loops or acting as phase inverter, or something to do with overall conductive load. Honesty though, no idea...

 

[racerevlon]

racerevlon - I would be interested in the Mesa's ...or any of the amps actually.

My singer and I are going to have a "tube swapping" session to try and hear the differences between different tubes in different stages, so we should be able to get the Mesas.

 

[Heritage Softail]

I'm not pretending to have a clue myself, I just haven't seen one credible argument for the ongoing production of AUDIO tubes yet and I've searched well beyond the baseless opinions in this thread.....

I haven't seen a credible argument for $4k amplifiers, $3k guitars, the plethora of pedals, much less multiple instances of each, yet there are all around.

With the $$$$ people are willing to drop for their rig (of the moment), I feel many will drop the coin on tubes. Hell, people even drop that kind of cash for NOS tubes. Not everyone for sure, but many.

Again, I think they'll fade away eventually, but only after digital (or perhaps these newfangled SS tubes) can truly match the performance of tubes. There may not be as many manufacturers and we may only end up with one brand of tube or "boutique" tubes, but there will be a demand for them even at a premium until other technologies can do it.

Also, as other companies go under, it is possible existing companies can make some changes to output different tubes for that market.

Interesting information, not sure how true it is..

http://www.sltrib.com/csp/cms/sites/sltrib/pages/printerfriendly.csp?id=53206814

Says the US exports buttloads of tubes every year. Most likely for military or medical applications, but never the less, and industry that appears to be doing fairly well could justify some retooling to produce tubes for consumers that demand them. I'm not sure how much it would cost a company that already makes tubes to make different ones, but it seems the most expensive aspect would already be there.

I don't know what the future holds, but certainly many people that have claimed the deaths of things have been wrong. And some have been right. I just know guitar tube amps were supposed to die out decades ago, yet here we are.

This is the essence of the argument, at the very top.

People really need a 4K amp and 5K guitar? And don't even get into the fact the person has the gear mainly for nostalgia reasons and is currently learning the second position of the pentatonic scale..

This is true in the Harley world but on a more expensive scale. People will want older bikes, they will be a luxury. It will not matter so much about price. If they get it in their head they have to have it, they will sacrifice elsewhere to get it. That is part of the reason Harley's of popular models and well kept condition hold value so well.

Also a factor in the retooling argument is the old technology involved. Retooling a punch press or strippit is much less than that of current robotic industry.

If you really want to look logically at the consumer 'wants' driven market, look at the silliness people do for pets. Millions of dollars on pet clothes, high end pet food, and my personal favorite.... The purified automatic water dispenser for your dog, and after taking a nice sip of that water he goes outside and eats one of the neighbor dogs turds...

Just sayin....

 

[Aztec]

All I know is that if AMT electronics comes out with solid state 12AX7 and EL34 replacement devices and they sound like the analog tubes I like, I'll be putting them in all my amps, my own and the ones I sell. The idea of never buying tubes again is attractive to me if the tone and feel I get with real tubes is there...

Steve

You read my mind.

 

[baron55]

All these "tube" replacements are simply solid state replacement circuits, and have been around for years, since the mid 70's. Nothing wrong with Solid State or tube, but why buy a tube amp which is designed to operate high voltage vacuum tubes, heavy and expensive then to replace them with solid state circuits. Instead if tubes are a pain, buy a good solid state amp.


As with everything else things will evolve for better or worse.

Many of the top recording engineers are debating the effort they put into recording and mastering because most of the music today is listened to on low fI devices, digital MP3 etc. Sure modern recording can use 98 bit sample rates, but the majority of music players is only 16 bit, and with all the digital compression and bit rate reduction the sound is not the same. The problem, each new generation accepts this as great sound.

Those who remember the record and audio tape age remembers how good they sounded. What is funny, today there are many limited releases on vinyl to supposedly capture the great audio quality, unfortunately, this vinyl is produced from the digital copies and completely defeats the purpose. Unless the recordings were done analog and mastered analog. But that just doesn't happen anymore.


So on tape ( I mean silicon, hare drive, etc) recording a tube amp vs a modeler or solid state amp becomes less apparent or impossible to tell, because you are compressing the sound and lowering the sounds fidelity.

So will tubes go away, yes. Can a good player tell tube from modeler or Ax Fx or Kemper, on tape probably not, in person, you betcha.

 

[baron55]

The Shuguang factor in China makes about 3.6 USD million dollars a year in total revenue from Vacuum tubes. And that is not net. In today's business climate, that is not enough money to invest here in the states. Unless you were a tube fanatic tycoon who could care less about profit margins. New Sensor is roughly the same, SED and JJ are a little less. These factories supply other types of tubes and make audio tubes as part of the portfolio. But as soon as the other tubes they make stop selling, audio tubes will become more expensive and they will close down eventually. China is very interesting because the "slave labor" is rebelling and demanding higher wages, it will become more and more difficult to make profits on them.

 

[Devin]

Also, the clips of the AMT SS tubes don't sound a whole lot different than the tube clips and think of where the Kemper/profiling tech will be in 10 years. I'm not worried.

Where did you hear these clips?? I was under the impression that these were not even finished yet.

 

[Bob Savage]

Many of the top recording engineers are debating the effort they put into recording and mastering because most of the music today is listened to on low fI devices, digital MP3 etc. Sure modern recording can use 98 bit sample rates, but the majority of music players is only 16 bit, and with all the digital compression and bit rate reduction the sound is not the same. The problem, each new generation accepts this as great sound.

Once the cost of storage and network bandwidth (including Internet bandwidth) drops enough, uncompressed digital music will again be a viable option. What top recording engineers are debating the "effort" of recording and mastering at higher qualities than what most consumers listen at? Haven't heard that one.

Those who remember the record and audio tape age remembers how good they sounded. What is funny, today there are many limited releases on vinyl to supposedly capture the great audio quality, unfortunately, this vinyl is produced from the digital copies and completely defeats the purpose. Unless the recordings were done analog and mastered analog. But that just doesn't happen anymore.

The recording process to tape and mastering to vinyl are mutually exclusive. There's a "pleasing" compression that comes from recording to fat tape that many like, and in fact there are artist who record analog and release digitally and it sounds fantastic and retains the effect of going to tape regardless of the end medium. Vinyl is the same, there's a compression that occurs that many find pleasing that can be acheived even if you tracked digitally. The 80's and early 90's posed a challenges in the transition to digital but through the use of high quality mic preamps, quality plugins and effective mastering, purely digital recordings can sound every bit as good as the analog recording and mastering to vinyl as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Aristocat]

If it wasn't for the EPA, we wouldn't have to buy tubes from Russia and China!Abolish the EPA! They are bankrupting our country!LOL! I think everyone should save a % of their money and start stocking up on tubes. Find a room in your house and store them! I can see it in the future when you're on your last Quad of EL 34's! You'll be milking it so it can last! LOL!

The EPA is a needed agency but it has some serious flaws and needs to be revamped. It is run soely based on special interest and has swings any which way once lobbyists' start showing the money.

Would you like to have regulations lessened on water treatment so you contract different illnesses every other week? Would you like the soil that cattle graze on to be contaminated with different carcinogens that then are transferred into your body once you eat the livestock?

Monsanto Chemical Corp were injecting cattle with growth hormones (Canada) to expedite the shipment of milk and meat to US and Canadian customers to the point that individuals were becoming sick from contaminated meat and disease ridden milk. No
regulation in that market because there is sufficient lobbying power to sway them in the other direction.

In fact, most of the food you eat even with regulation is GMO (genetically modified). This includes produce, meat and fish. And even with regulation, the fish you eat for example is filled with toxics from polluted oceanic water.

Off topic for sure, but there are reasons for this.

The last reason why tubes are made in Russia and China is not because of Environmental regulations but because it costs way too much money to produce in America alone. This is why our half of our infrastructure has migrated to China alone. It costs them very little to make because no one is riding their coattails and to import is slightly less. We also reap a huge benefit by selling them domestically as opposed to manufacturing them here as well. We'd lose out if we did both.

Think of it this way. If American's were to build tubes and it costs us $15 dollars and we could only sell them for $20 we'd make $5 in profit. But if the chinese could build tubes for $5 and import them to the U.S (where we sell them for $20) we make $15 in profit and China may get a $5 dollar kickback for helping us and we still make $10 in profit.

Russia and China have an absolute advantage over us in tube production and we save a shit ton of money importing tubes to America/Britain and where ever else.

I was just joking just a bit. The EPA is needed but they have way to much power. In California some of the laws they have here are a bit to much. It's so difficult for companies to make a profit here, that they're leaving Ca. Was the use of having all this laws for the enviroment when other countries are not doing anything about it. What they're doing also will affects us in time regardless if we all drove electric cars!

I tend to get spirited during a debate (even though this is pretty informal)

California is a whole different story and I'm not even going to begin to state that I understand everything in it's entirety.

The EPA needs some serious reform and it's a known fact.

Sorry if I read you wrong!

 

[ejecta]

You tube huggers crack me up.

 

[stephen sawall]

racerevlon - I would be interested in the Mesa's ...or any of the amps actually.

My singer and I are going to have a "tube swapping" session to try and hear the differences between different tubes in different stages, so we should be able to get the Mesas.

Thanks .... post results in this thread or leave a link here please.

 

[petejt]

comparing this subject to records versus cd's is flawed. companies are actually building record players again because people want them. they sound better.

That's true. I've seen new music being distributed digitally (via iTunes) and simultaneously via vinyl records.

It's the CDs that are now getting phased out.

 

[Heritage Softail]

We will only need tubes to create profiles. Everyone will have some type of Kemper amp soon anyway. All the cool kids are doing it....

 

[stephen sawall]

The other option will never really replace tubes .... they just are not going to stop making them eventually.
I have boxes of tubes I collected over the last 42 years ...so I have more than enough for the rest of my life....

 

[Ventura]

I work in the medical field and my nuclear medicine camera has 70 PMT tubes in it alone. Along with ct, x-ray, x ray digital reading devices, and mammography, tubes aren't going anywhere. I am not talking about x-ray producing tubes either, which are also a part of some of this equipment. My nuclear camera is made in Germany (Siemens) and uses tubes made by the same companies that we buy our tubes for our amps for. This is all equipment that is less than a year old, and there is nothing in the works with getting solid state technology integrated into this equipment anywhere in the near future.

Why do people in the industry say things like this. It's real simple, produce a buzz of tubes becoming obsolete and we'll all go out and buy a lifetime supply of tubes. Its a pretty good marketing strategy. Go to the store and try and buy some ammo for your guns right now. Its the same principal, threaten to take it all away and we'll make sure and stock up why we still can.

Hey! I work in Nuclear Medicine (well, PET/CT now).

you don't hear a lot of people on forums with our jobs, haha.

Yep. People into music are - interestingly enough - everywhere

 

[Ventura]

And I'm sure it's been posted elsewhere, but since we're on the topic of the "shift from tubes":

http://kemper-amps.com/page/render/lang ... _News.html

Mojo

 

[Rogue]

And I'm sure it's been posted elsewhere, but since we're on the topic of the "shift from tubes":

http://kemper-amps.com/page/render/lang ... _News.html

Mojo

The rack version is more tubey.

 

[stephen sawall]

Personally I could care less how a sound is created ... either I like it or not.
Feel can be modified in many ways ..... tube buffer on a digital unit or a normal or full range tube poweramp.

 

[Krankenstein]

Sorry to intrude but Tubes will always be there. China always finds a way to supply the demand. The demand will never drop because algorithms 1001111011101111110000111100101110 will never overcome AC DC. this is simple physics.
I pesonally use an axe fx and a Diezel Hagen. Sorry but 1000011110000011100 does not equal Hagen.
You can hear it on Periphery's albums, Deftones, The faceless and every other band who used Axe Fx for recording or live sets. As I mentioned before... Digital is good but it will always be that "85%-90% close to the real thing". Let s not forget that it's been since 2006 that Mr Cliff Chase is trying to get there and despite all his knowledge and research he hasnt still come close to getting the tone of a real amp.
It doesn't compare to Killswitch Engage who use soldano and Spawn to record their albums and also play live with!!!!!

And by saying that I am not dissing Axe or Kemper. I love and use those units and I do use Axe to record mostly everything. But I wish I had the chance to record my guitars in my flat using my Hagen and Krank without having the neighboors banging doors and causing an earthquake.

 

[Bob Savage]

Sorry to intrude but Tubes will always be there. China always finds a way to supply the demand. The demand will never drop because algorithms 1001111011101111110000111100101110 will never overcome AC DC. this is simple physics.
I pesonally use an axe fx and a Diezel Hagen. Sorry but 1000011110000011100 does not equal Hagen.
You can hear it on Periphery's albums, Deftones, The faceless and every other band who used Axe Fx for recording or live sets. As I mentioned before... Digital is good but it will always be that "85%-90% close to the real thing". Let s not forget that it's been since 2006 that Mr Cliff Chase is trying to get there and despite all his knowledge and research he hasnt still come close to getting the tone of a real amp.
It doesn't compare to Killswitch Engage who use soldano and Spawn to record their albums and also play live with!!!!!

And by saying that I am not dissing Axe or Kemper. I love and use those units and I do use Axe to record mostly everything. But I wish I had the chance to record my guitars in my flat using my Hagen and Krank without having the neighboors banging doors and causing an earthquake.

Oh man, where to start.