Understanding Loops and Channel Master vs. Loop Master?

[TremoJem]

I have two Tremoverbs and run them in stereo, while using Strymon stereo pedals in the loop.

To get the cleans as clean as I want them and keep rehearsal volume levels at a good usable point (loud), I set both channels to be level with each other and then use the Loop Active Master (LAM) to control both amps individually and get them even in volume as well.

My problem is that my gain channel never really gets higher than just past the point of "off" or zero.

Clean channel settings are: Gain= 9:00, Master= 12:00.
Gain channel settings are: Gain= 1:00, Master= 6:00-7:00 or just "on".
Loop Active Master settings are: 12:00

So I tried something. First I plugged a patch cable into the send/return. Then, with the LAM on 12:00, I turned the loop on/off to set unity gain. With the send level at around 1:00, it was perfect.

I then maxed the master on the clean channel and increased the gain to about 10:00 plus a pinch more.

I then dropped the LAM to about 9:00 and increased the gain channel master to about 9:00 with maybe a pinch more.

It sounded incredible, faster attack, fuller, kinda like the effect you get from a clean boost, and a little more compressed, but not by much.

Don't get me wrong, the other way did not sound anemic or thin, just not like this, and I hated that I could never get the gain channel master past "just barely on"...for some reason if bothered me, and I thought, "there must be something better".

I A/B'd the two Tremoverbs against each other (not having changed any original settings on the other Tremoverb), and it really sounded better.

It seems as if I lost a little clean when I use the gain channel and use my guitar volume knob to back off and clean it up a bit, but that is kinda expected, considering the change I made...I guess. I don't like that loss of control at all, but do like the tone and feel of the new settings. Also the gain channel is not as gained out...or maybe a better word is cleaner by just a little bit, which is odd, because I would think that backing off my guitar volume knob would work better in that application. I figure less gain on the amp and the better cleans when backing down on the guitar volume knob.

I will have to experiment with it tonight, as I did not have a lot of time last night.

You can't get something for nothing I guess.

So here is my question...what is happening here and is this a preferred setting, I know that is a stupid question, as I know if it sounds good...well then it sounds good.

But I really want to know if anyone else has done or is doing this, and if it is bad for the amp, etc.

Just really want your opinions and observations based on what I am doing, thanks guys.

 

[Stone Heavy Sound]

yeah man, definitely just do what you like for tone and feel.

With regards to what is happening, it sounds like a few things in play. Channels aren't really independent, they share at least the input tube so the gain of channel 1 is likely affecting the signal that hits channel 2. Also it sounds like with the loop master volume you're effectively driving the fx loop tube a bit harder which seems in keeping with losing the dynamic range on your gain channel (tubes gradually compress the signal as they are overdriven, and by using the loop you're adding another "clean" tube) and probably accounts for the added tone qualities or enhancements you are feeling. You want to really make your hair stand up? If you ever get the chance to play a Marshall Superlead with all knobs on 10, you will damage your hearing but it's pure rock and roll. All tube amps have a sweet spot, and the only way to discover it is to turn the knobs relentlessly, but when you find it you'll know, and it sounds like you did with your tweaking. I run all my master volume amps the way you describe, and most of them require extremely loud output volume to hit that sweet spot. I use a Weber Mass to balance the volume. But overall, they always sound best with the channel volumes as high as possible while maintaining balance between channels. In fact, I just performed my first amp mod a few weeks ago on a Laney that I've had forever and love, but it didn't have a serial fx loop, it was like a 40% mix with a mix knob. Laney sent me the mod with a schematic, and I crapped a brick when I was un-soldering tiny pieces from the PCB, but low and behold it worked and it had the added benefit of a master loop volume instead of a loop mix. The channels are now slammed at about 3 o'clock and the amp just sings, it's dripping with harmonics. I literally had to solder in a wire to bridge the fx loop, as you did by patching the send to the return but this one is permanent. I have a Splawn Nitro which comes from the factory with this feature built in with a switch. I play a lot of high gain stuff so I always have a noise gate in the loop as a general practice and helped me stumble into this discovery of using the loop.

And no, this is not bad for your amps, it's how they were designed, and great for your tone, and nothing helps build confidence like when you connect to your amp.

BTW crazy setup with the stereo amps, that probably sound incredible if you're standing right in the middle!

 

[TremoJem]

Thanks Stone Heavy Sound

 

[audiomidijace]

I jump the parallel loop on my RM4 and dime the loop level.
Everything just sounds bigger and thicker. It does drive the master output
level up so I adjust it accordingly. Every now and then
I'll turn the mix down or even remove the cable and turn up
the master output to see what it sounds like. Then I hurry and change it all back!!

 

[TremoJem]

I am really digging this tone.

I decided to pull two tubes and run at 50 watts.

After doing so I increased the loop master volume by a pinch.

I also tried switching to rectifier tubes, but it just was not jelling.

As soon as I switched back, I was happy again...immediately, so considering each amp has different rectifier tubes in them, I think I will A/B them to see if one is better than the other, plus I think I have another set in the box...so it is worth experimenting with...just to give it a fair shake, as cleans do sound better with tubes rather than silicon diodes.

Anyway a little tweaking with EQ as this is a new animal or animals (two Tremoverbs) and I am running with it. Even the FX sound better.

I am just really happy with this man...I mean it is really just the bomb.

 

[Stone Heavy Sound]

Cool, something I've tried is using a 12au7 instead of a 12ax7 for the rectifier. These have much lower gain, thus more headroom before distortion, and generally will have a more noticeable effect than swapping 12ax7's (for the rectifier or effects loop tubes)

 

[some dude]

Considering the way you're setting your amp, this manual may be interesting for you. In part because it's written for a serial loop, and if I remember correctly you've done the serial loop mod, and in part because you're dialling in low gain settings in the region the manual touches on.