Wattage questions about tube amps and jamming in clubs, etc,

[ThrowBackMan]

Hey guys..

When I was growing up, everyone had to have at least a 50 watt head, or a 100 watt stack of course, and then they'd not turn them up but would use 15 pedals to get their tone.. I started out on a Fender Twin reverb as I was a huge Ted Nugent fan and he had the biggest influence on me as well as Aerosmith, and others, from the 70's and we didn't have Marshalls for sale here where I live for the most part. I would just crank that thing and it would get real hot, but it would scream with a Dimarzio Super Distortion, etc, which was great, but too much volume on stage, but there were tricks I'd use to make it work such as point it upward or sideways, and put something behind it and in front of it, etc,..

Anyway, I'm not wanting that now days, and I'm wondering how much louder is a 50 watt amp for instance instead of a 15 watt or 20 watt all tube amp? Say I have the same model and make of an amp, and one is a 15 watt combo and the other is a 50 watt combo, and both have 1 x 12 speaker cab. How much louder is the 50 watt and does it take twice as much or three times as much loudness for lack of a better word or power to get the power tube distortion we all love along with the preamp tubes, etc,?

Thanks so much in advance. I'm not the most technical with it comes to this stuff, except for digital stuff which I've worked in that field, but hate it for guitar stuff, yet it's great for computers and recording!
T

 

[iggs]

Perceivable volume of an amp has to do with more then just rated wattage. 50W amp will not be 3.33 times louder then a 15W amp.
Power amp design in respect to class (A or AB) and other considerations like output transformers, overall headroom ... etc. will influence output "volume".
Speaker configuration and rating (wattage and more importantly sensitivity) will have even more influence on overall resulting volume.

Same goes for power tube distortion, depending on the design and class of the amp, it may start to clip sooner or later.
If power amp compression and saturation is desired, chances are a class A amp will provide that more generously then a class AB amp for the same type and number of output tubes.
The perceived effects of cranking the amp up that we all love, and as we hear them, are often associated and attributed to "power amp distortion".
However, they most likely have more to do with speaker compression and saturation at high volume levels then power amp itself.
Generally speaking, power tube distortion is not a very musical and pleasing type of distortion. Some power tube types are better then others of course.
Having said that, added compression and harmonics that a hard working output section provides is very musical and desirable, especially in a true class A amp.

Also, difference between class A and class AB amps can be thought of in this, over-simplified way:
Imagine a scale of 0-10 representing full output power of a tube, and a sliding "point" along that scale representing "bias" or a mid-point for a full 360 cycle of a amplified signal.
If we bias a tube closer to 0 ... somewhere around 1 for example, then we have available power of that tube from 1-10 ... this would be class AB (only a portion of full 360 cycle is amplified, more power, more headroom)
If we bias the same tube around 5, then we have available power only from 5-10 ... that would be class A (full 360 cycle is being amplified, less power, less headroom, sooner clipping)

 

[Racerxrated]

15-20 watts should be fine for any indoor gig with a PA. Outdoors you will want at least a 50 watt rig. Imo. All through a 2 or 4x12...Just have to be loud enough to hear over your drummer.

 

[PsychoholicSlag]

We use 100w full and half stacks in small clubs because we hate people and don't care about their hearing.








But yea 15w on up works great, the Tiny Terror and amps like that wattage wise are great club amps.

 

[mbman]

I'm running two heads (one is 50 watts the other is 40 watts) into a stereo 412 cab each eq'd differently ans with chorus and delay in the fx loop of one and a really short delay infront of the other. Sounds great and I' m never too loud.

Martin

 

[ThrowBackMan]

Thanks so much guys. I really appreciate it..
T

 

[ThrowBackMan]

I'm running two heads (one is 50 watts the other is 40 watts) into a stereo 412 cab each eq'd differently ans with chorus and delay in the fx loop of one and a really short delay infront of the other. Sounds great and I' m never too loud.

Martin

Hey Martin,

Are you able to crank the amp with those wattages and still maintain a low enough volume to not upset other band members or the audience? Just wondering? If not, are you using lot's of pedals and clean channel of amp?

Thanks
T

 

[mbman]

I'm running two heads (one is 50 watts the other is 40 watts) into a stereo 412 cab each eq'd differently ans with chorus and delay in the fx loop of one and a really short delay infront of the other. Sounds great and I' m never too loud.

Martin

Hey Martin,

Are you able to crank the amp with those wattages and still maintain a low enough volume to not upset other band members or the audience? Just wondering? If not, are you using lot's of pedals and clean channel of amp?

Thanks
T

One amp is heavily distorted and pushes lots of mids and some bass, it's turned up quite a bit, master uns around 3 o'clock most nights. The other amp pushes the high end and is set to a really crunchy overdrive sound, it cleans up real well when I turn the volume on the guitar down. it doesn't need to be set up as loud as the other amp. In relation to the first amp the second one is actually somewhat low in volume. The sound is very rich and full, we do mostly classic rock with so I don't need a real heavy sound, although for some of the newer stuff we do I could sure use the brootz. I don't like using overdrive/distortion pedals though and so far nobody seems to care that my tone isn't just like the record. Usually I'm told to turn up by the other folks in the band and sometimes by folks in the audience. I got no problem wid dat!

Martin

 

[blackba]

It all depends on how much clean headroom you need and what of player you are. Low wattage amps still typically lack features. Also there has been a lot of progress in lower wattage switches on bigger amps. A blues players who rides their volume knob and wants the amp on edge of breakup will have different needs than a hard rock player who plays with a channel switching amp.

For me I seem to settle around 30 to 50 watt amps and use the amps channels or pedals to get my gain.

 

[1big1]

for me it's all about not having a bigger footprint than the guys i'm playing with. i try to match the rig size with the volume of the drummer. they don't have a knob you can turn to put them in the mix where you want them. and it's all about keeping it simple. i don't want to spend time eq'ing more than a kick and/or snare at club gigs. i do appreciate the old school description you gave.. 'cause well.. i'm old and i remember that.
these days i'm finding i get some good tones out of a 40 watt marshall 1x12 with just a boost or od in front. i add a 1x12 extension cab in clubs that are a little larger or have high ceilings.. and also use a d.i. and feed some of that back through the monitors and can feed what i need to the mains. we aren't really loud.. just really present.

 

[ThrowBackMan]

It all depends on how much clean headroom you need and what of player you are. Low wattage amps still typically lack features. Also there has been a lot of progress in lower wattage switches on bigger amps. A blues players who rides their volume knob and wants the amp on edge of breakup will have different needs than a hard rock player who plays with a channel switching amp.

For me I seem to settle around 30 to 50 watt amps and use the amps channels or pedals to get my gain.

Hey Blackba..
I tend to play almost exclusively 70's classic and 80's metal rock, and bluesy zep like stuff.. I ride the volume knob though to soften and clean up the signal, and don't use anything reverb in my amp now, and I like delay in lead, etc,.. But, lately I'm playing with a Pitch Shifter, etc,

I'm thinking that a 1x12 tube amp is probably good enough for me.. in the 15 or 20 watt range and is loud enough to keep up with a drummer..
Thanks man..
T

 

[ThrowBackMan]

for me it's all about not having a bigger footprint than the guys i'm playing with. i try to match the rig size with the volume of the drummer. they don't have a knob you can turn to put them in the mix where you want them. and it's all about keeping it simple. i don't want to spend time eq'ing more than a kick and/or snare at club gigs. i do appreciate the old school description you gave.. 'cause well.. i'm old and i remember that.
these days i'm finding i get some good tones out of a 40 watt marshall 1x12 with just a boost or od in front. i add a 1x12 extension cab in clubs that are a little larger or have high ceilings.. and also use a d.i. and feed some of that back through the monitors and can feed what i need to the mains. we aren't really loud.. just really present.

Hey 1big1.
Yeah, I'm old too man!
Yeah, I have to keep up with a loud drummer myself, but I don't want so much volume that I can kill animals at long distance..

I played a Marshall 40 watt tube amp and it was killer, and I was going to buy it and they sold it before I got back. I ended up buying a Marshall Valvestate 2000 I think it is.. It's a 1 x 12, made in Britain, and has a Celestion speaker. I really thought I'd just like it for practicing at home, but it really sounds great. It's a solid state power amp I think, but it sounds great. Has like 4 channels including a acoustic channel.
Anyway, yeah, I'm old school too. Thanks so much man!
T

 

[blackba]

It all depends on how much clean headroom you need and what of player you are. Low wattage amps still typically lack features. Also there has been a lot of progress in lower wattage switches on bigger amps. A blues players who rides their volume knob and wants the amp on edge of breakup will have different needs than a hard rock player who plays with a channel switching amp.

For me I seem to settle around 30 to 50 watt amps and use the amps channels or pedals to get my gain.

Hey Blackba..
I tend to play almost exclusively 70's classic and 80's metal rock, and bluesy zep like stuff.. I ride the volume knob though to soften and clean up the signal, and don't use anything reverb in my amp now, and I like delay in lead, etc,.. But, lately I'm playing with a Pitch Shifter, etc,

I'm thinking that a 1x12 tube amp is probably good enough for me.. in the 15 or 20 watt range and is loud enough to keep up with a drummer..
Thanks man..
T

I think about 15 to 20Watts would be perfect for that. Something along the lines or a Fender Deluxe Reverb or Vox AC15 should do what you want. Lots of cool 5Watt amps like the Marshall Class 5 if you don't really need clean. The Mesa TA-15 is a really cool amp too, it has 3 wattage settings and 2 channels. I have one on my wish list, if you hadn't guessed that.

 

[ThrowBackMan]

It all depends on how much clean headroom you need and what of player you are. Low wattage amps still typically lack features. Also there has been a lot of progress in lower wattage switches on bigger amps. A blues players who rides their volume knob and wants the amp on edge of breakup will have different needs than a hard rock player who plays with a channel switching amp.

For me I seem to settle around 30 to 50 watt amps and use the amps channels or pedals to get my gain.

Hey Blackba..
I tend to play almost exclusively 70's classic and 80's metal rock, and bluesy zep like stuff.. I ride the volume knob though to soften and clean up the signal, and don't use anything reverb in my amp now, and I like delay in lead, etc,.. But, lately I'm playing with a Pitch Shifter, etc,

I'm thinking that a 1x12 tube amp is probably good enough for me.. in the 15 or 20 watt range and is loud enough to keep up with a drummer..
Thanks man..
T

I think about 15 to 20Watts would be perfect for that. Something along the lines or a Fender Deluxe Reverb or Vox AC15 should do what you want. Lots of cool 5Watt amps like the Marshall Class 5 if you don't really need clean. The Mesa TA-15 is a really cool amp too, it has 3 wattage settings and 2 channels. I have one on my wish list, if you hadn't guessed that.

Hey Blackba..

Thank you for the recommendations. I'm really looking hard at a Peavey Valveking, the newer one's with the setting that tells you if your power tubes are bad, adn the 20 watt combo with a 1 x 12 speaker has a low power setting for 1, 7, and 20 watts I think. They also have a 50 watt version I'm also looking at that has a 2, 12, and 50 watt setting, and also the tube maintenance feature, etc,. There's also the Jet City amps that I really loved the overdrive on. The one 20 watt version was perfect for me as it just has the one channel, and it cleaned up good enough, not great, but the gain was perfect.. Made in Vietnam I think.. I'm told it's designed by soldano which is one of the best amps I've ever played thru.. I also like the Peavey 5150 stuff, etc.. I've never been a clean amp, add pedals guy..
Thanks so much!
T

 

[1big1]

for me it's all about not having a bigger footprint than the guys i'm playing with. i try to match the rig size with the volume of the drummer. they don't have a knob you can turn to put them in the mix where you want them. and it's all about keeping it simple. i don't want to spend time eq'ing more than a kick and/or snare at club gigs. i do appreciate the old school description you gave.. 'cause well.. i'm old and i remember that.
these days i'm finding i get some good tones out of a 40 watt marshall 1x12 with just a boost or od in front. i add a 1x12 extension cab in clubs that are a little larger or have high ceilings.. and also use a d.i. and feed some of that back through the monitors and can feed what i need to the mains. we aren't really loud.. just really present.

Hey 1big1.
Yeah, I'm old too man!
Yeah, I have to keep up with a loud drummer myself, but I don't want so much volume that I can kill animals at long distance..

I played a Marshall 40 watt tube amp and it was killer, and I was going to buy it and they sold it before I got back. I ended up buying a Marshall Valvestate 2000 I think it is.. It's a 1 x 12, made in Britain, and has a Celestion speaker. I really thought I'd just like it for practicing at home, but it really sounds great. It's a solid state power amp I think, but it sounds great. Has like 4 channels including a acoustic channel.
Anyway, yeah, I'm old school too. Thanks so much man!
T

i also have a full stack marshall dsl 100. migrating geese fear me. no problem trying to help out. everybody has different solutions.. but the problem remains basically the same.
i also have a jet city 2112 combo with a matching 12s extension cab. it would work fine for what you're looking at. i use the jet city afterburner od in front and set the gain low for cleaner tones.. use the afterburner for od and boost and the jet city shockwave distortion for those gnarly tones. it does what it does pretty well and i could have run with it and been happy. however our singer plays on a few tunes and he's more of a fender guy. i just thought i needed more clean headroom and also thought the dsl 40c was a better match with a fender tone stack.

 

[fretout]

A good idea may be to have a jam session with your drummer with your current rig, and set the volume to the LOWEST possible volume setting that you feel comfortable with. When you find a low wattage amp mp that you like, bring your current amp with you and see if the lower wattage amp can compete with your current rig. That would give you a solution to know if it will handle the worst-case scenario, you know?

If you're mic'ing through a PA, I would say that any TUBE amp down to 10 watts would be just fine.

If playing un-mic'd, it really comes down to whether the amp has a master volume (MV) or not for my uses, so that I can use the preamp to dial in the grit, and use the power amp to make the volume as loud as I can get it, as cleanly as possible, and dial in the max headroom (ha ha, 80's humor) as possible. If that makes any sense...

I play in some louder bands that range from thrash to hard rock to blues, and I have a drummer that hits pretty hard (his favorite band is Mastodon), and I try to match my volume with his when we jam. The lowest wattage I can get away with is 25 watts to match the drummers output, but I can't say that I'm comfortable, but it will get the job done.

I think if you're going for a 70s/80s rock tone, and trying to keep the volume down, I would say 20-25 watts would be ideal depending on what amp you're considering.

 

[RG955TT]

It's all about how much clean headroom you need...20 watt amp doesn't cut it on cleans for me, 50 watt is much better. With that said I can use my XTC 20th at any volume or situation and it kills it and its 100 watts. Tried half power but for me I still like that punch I get from a bigger power section even at low volumes.

 

[ThrowBackMan]

Thanks guys. I'm looking now hard at the 50 watt combo's / heads because I think you're right. I think it's probably better to have a little more power than needed. My current marshall sounds great, but it's a preamp tube amp, and the power amp is solid state, but it's not really loud enough although it says it's 150 watts.. I don't know why it says that and isn't loud enough, but it's not. I mean it's really hard to hear with a drummer at medium pounding volumes.. unless I'm real far away.. Even stood up on a chair, tilted, etc,.. So, I'm going to get the Jet City or the Peavey Valve King head I think in the 50 watt version. I really love the tone of the Jet City and then I can just turn up the gain just enough that with my volume knob turned down I get a decent clean, and then a great rythem with the volume cranked and then use a boost pedal for the leads to just add more girth and sustain, etc,. I think that's the way I'll go along with my delay pedal / boss, and a Wah. I'm going to probably buy a Morley Steve Vai type wah that makes it easy to use..
Thanks so much for the info. you guys rock!

 

[1big1]

yeah.. in the end i sort of thought that i'd rather have the headroom and not use it rather than need it and not have it. i'm sure you probably have your favorite pedals.. but if you're demo'ing a jet you should try the shockwave for soloing. makes 'em sing like the von trapp's.

 

[ThrowBackMan]

yeah.. in the end i sort of thought that i'd rather have the headroom and not use it rather than need it and not have it. i'm sure you probably have your favorite pedals.. but if you're demo'ing a jet you should try the shockwave for soloing. makes 'em sing like the von trapp's.

Hi 1big1.
Is the shockwave an overdrive or a boost or?

Thanks man..
Tim