We got an American Pope Baby....... PopeMania 2025 ^_^

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VonBonfire said:
Get rid of Vatican II and the ball would be rolling. Not sure how you got the idea that church hierarchy is illegitimate though (other than papal authority). The new testament speaks pretty plainly about them. "Episkipos" in Greek is translated as bishop or overseer. And there are also scriptures talking about "elders" in the church and the requirements to be one in 1 Timothy.
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And none of that gives an elder the authority to say they are the only ones allowed to read and understand the scriptures. Nor does Episkipos mean bishop in the sense that the Catholic church has implemented it. It is used interchangeably with elder and pastor.
 
Thumbpicker said:
And none of that gives an elder the authority to say they are the only ones allowed to read and understand the scriptures. Nor does Episkipos mean bishop in the sense that the Catholic church has implemented it. It is used interchangeably with elder and pastor.
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So then what is the point of church attendance if I can self interpret everything and the sacraments are only symbolic?
 
VonBonfire said:
Get rid of Vatican II and the ball would be rolling. Not sure how you got the idea that church hierarchy is illegitimate though (other than papal authority). The new testament speaks pretty plainly about them. "Episkipos" in Greek is translated as bishop or overseer. And there are also scriptures talking about "elders" in the church and the requirements to be one in 1 Timothy.
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Yes, I agree, but the officers Of the church are Elders/Bishops and Deacons only. I am an ordained Presbyter/Bishop although I'm currently not serving. I'm talking about the hierarchy as it exists in the Roman system as illegitimate.
 
Fusionbear said:
I'm talking about the hierarchy as it exists in the Roman system as illegitimate.
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Besides papal authority and his position of "vicar of Christ" being illegitimate, how is it illegitimate in terms of the ranks when compared to other denominations?
 
VonBonfire said:
Besides papal authority and his position of "vicar of Christ" being illegitimate, how is it illegitimate in terms of the ranks when compared to other denominations?
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How about priests interceding to God instead of Christ who is our High Priest.

1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Hebrews 4:14-16​

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Jesus the Great High Priest​

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15;For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 ;Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Hebrews 8:1-13​

Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” ...
 
All I know is the Pope seems like a pretty cool guy.......

One of those dudes youd go drink a beer with, smoke a blunt with after work and maybe go to a club to or Vegas with the other homies too chasing baddies......



Doesnt seem so bad to me....... whatever that guy is preaching sign me up :dunno:
 
The~Kid said:
Its the American Pope baby..... anything is possible *_*
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Now you've got me picturing him flying an American flag from a pickup truck yelling, "Freedom baby!"... on his way to a strip club in Vegas. :LOL:
 
I had an 8 year stint teaching theology at the undergrad level at a local Christian university. Feel free to ask any questions.
 
Thumbpicker said:
How about priests interceding to God instead of Christ who is our High Priest.

1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Hebrews 4:14-16​

​

Jesus the Great High Priest​

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15;For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 ;Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Hebrews 8:1-13​

Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” ...
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These are great passages reminding us of how Jesus is the ultimate priest vs. The Levitical priests who did intercede for Israel in the past. The levites interceded in the copy of the heavenly, Jesus intercedes in heaven itself.

Because true believers are "in Christ" , all believers are able to intercede for other people. All believers have access to Christ anytime and anywhere. You don't have to be at a "holy" site. This is called the "priesthood of all believers."
 
Fusionbear said:
I had an 8 year stint teaching theology at the undergrad level at a local Christian university. Feel free to ask any questions.
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Well I can tell you I do understand enough about this topic to have this conversation- not sure why you liked vonbonfire’s sledge at me which seems like an agreement with him on that. I’m trying to set him straight.
 
VonBonfire said:
Even protestants believe in intercessory prayer, the root of "intercede". You don't understand catholic or orthodox theology enough to have this conversation.
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We protestants pray for the living. Theosis is an invention on the Orthodox side. When you die, your spirit goes to God in either judgement or salvation. Your body remains here and awaits the second coming of Christ for the resurrection unto life or eternal damnation. There is no communication between the living here and the departed... The Roman Catholics have the idea of praying to the saints and Mary which is equally wrong too. Scripture is clear. Jesus is the only mediator between man and God. Only God can hear us since he is divine and omnipresent. The departed saints are not omnipotent nor omniscient.

The departed are not diefied. Even after the second coming, those that are glorified will not be diefied.
 
The Pope knows how to party and have a good time....... even if it means getting in trouble ^_^



 
Fusionbear said:
We protestants pray for the living. Theosis is an invention on the Orthodox side. When you die, your spirit goes to God in either judgement or salvation. Your body remains here and awaits the second coming of Christ for the resurrection unto life or eternal damnation. There is no communication between the living here and the departed... The Roman Catholics have the idea of praying to the saints and Mary which is equally wrong too. Scripture is clear. Jesus is the only mediator between man and God. Only God can hear us since he is divine and omnipresent. The departed saints are not omnipotent nor omniscient.

The departed are not diefied. Even after the second coming, those that are glorified will not be diefied.
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Praying for the dead and theosis, are also part of some protestant traditions and stem from very early Christianity. In revelation the prayers of the saints are depicted as rising before God and if the saints are alive in Christ, then it is not wrong to ask for their intercessions as you would ask a friend to pray for you in a time of need. That's the orthodox understanding.
 
VonBonfire said:
Praying for the dead and theosis, are also part of some protestant traditions and stem from very early Christianity. In revelation the prayers of the saints are depicted as rising before God and if the saints are alive in Christ, then it is not wrong to ask for their intercessions as you would ask a friend to pray for you in a time of need. That's the orthodox understanding.
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The term saints in the Bible doesn't mean dead people who have been given a post death title of "saint" like a Catholic would understand the word. It means living believers/Christians.
 
Thumbpicker said:
The term saints in the Bible doesn't mean dead saints like a Catholic would call a saint. It means living believers/Christians.
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What's this mean? It's time for you to start hitting that bible bro:

Matthew 27:52-53 The tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.
 
VonBonfire said:
What's this mean? It's time for you to start hitting that bible bro:

Matthew 27:52-53 The tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.
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It just means Christians. So the bodies of the Christians that had fallen asleep were raised etc...

It doesn't mean those Christians that the Catholic Church called "saints" poshumously.
 
Thumbpicker said:
It just means Christians. So the bodies of the Christians that had fallen asleep were raised etc...
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It says "saints".

Thumbpicker said:
It doesn't mean those Christians that the Catholic Church called "saints".
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I didn't say anything about catholics, you did. Even so, just because someone is not recognized in the here and now as a saint does not mean they are not recognized as one in the kingdom. There are many thousands of martyrs whose names are not known.
 
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