What's The Deal With Mesa V30's?

[EXPcustom]

Dont get me wrong I am not saying post 2003 v30s sound like crap but if its my money I am buying pre 2003 Mesa/Marshall cabs.

 

[moltenmetalburn]

Thegame hits on exactly what I'm talking about. Is there a difference? Sure. Does it really matter in terms of a guitar speaker? No. We're just worrying and spinning quality conspiracy theories where no issues are known to exist.

How do you know the steel has no effect?

How do you know that it has no effect on a guitar speaker?

have you done any analysis?

As the metal resonates with the speaker I can guarantee differences in the sound based on density alone. The only way to know would be to compare two exact models with each kind of steel. To blindly say it doesn't matter without any analysis is assumption.

I for one believe it would be a worse sound .

a good example of late is the floyd sustain block phenomenon that has proven that high quality metals vs cheap pot metals have positive effects on resonance.

 

[SkunkWorks]

they are 70w V30's, just like the Marshall and Hellatone ones

Just to clarify, the Avatar Hellatone 60's fall into two different categories. Regular Hellatone 60's are normal Vintage 30's, nothing special about them. The Hellatone 60L's are rated at 70watts AND have a different dust cap. These are the ones specially made for Marshall, and AFAIK are not the same as the ones Mesa uses.

pictures snipped

Valtiel, I don't know if you're still around here but i wanted to get your thoughts on the following, please bear with me...

Yes, the 60L is different from the regular Hellatone 60, different dust cap but also a beefier magnet and voiced a bit different in the low end. When you say the 60L are the ones made for Marshall, are you talking about all factory loaded Vintage 30 Marshall cabs or specifically the ones that say "Marshall Vintage" on the drivers like the 1960AV and BV cabs?

The reason I ask is because I briefly owned a stock 1960BV and immediately noticed more girth to it's tone over my other Marshall cab that had normal V30's in it. I ended up trading that cab for something more rare (opportunity knocked) but I've always wanted to get my hands on another set of those Marshall branded drivers that were in that cab. Over a year's worth of research lead me to believe that those drivers were what some people refer to as the "super" V30 and that they were at one time also supplied to Mesa. Contrary to what someone else posted in this thread, a member of the Marshall amps forum posted a reply he got from from a Celestion rep who said that although he couldn't really discuss it much because of agreements they have with certain customers, the Marshall branded "Vintage" drivers are not off the shelf V30's and that's all he was willing to say. Seems we have some discrepancy here between statements made by 2 Celestion reps. But if one was to believe the one from MY source, then it seems to point in the direction that the "Marshall Vintage" drivers are in fact the super V30's and that this was the difference in tone that I had immediately noticed when I purchased that 1960BV. I also have just assumed that the Hellatone 60L, from its description, is also this OEM super V30 made for Marshall. Based on this, I have been keeping my eye out for a set of those drivers to put into an unloaded early to mid 70's Marhsall 4x12 I got for free this past summer.

... but here's something that throws a wrench into the whole thing. Seems some things have changed at Avatar and Dave is able to do some things he wasn't able to in the past, like ship to Canada and discuss the source of the mysterious OEM drivers he uses for his Hellatone 60L. I had a conversation with him and, I hope he doesn't mind me saying, they are OEM drivers originally supplied by Celestion to VOX, not Marshall.

So now I'm back to being confused. I thought I'd just buy a set of 60L's if I can't find a set of the Marshall Vintage but now I'm back to not knowing if they are the same speaker. And I don't know for sure if the "Marshall Vintage" are this alleged "super" V30... 2 different Celestion reps say different things. What I do know is I really liked the sound of that 1960BV cab so maybe I should just look for a set of those drivers regardless of what they are

 

[_actual time_]

When you say the 60L are the ones made for Marshall are you talking about all factory loaded Vintage 30 Marshall cabs or specifically the ones that say "Marshall Vintage" on the drivers like the 1960AV and BV cabs?

neither, actually--the 60Ls are supposed to be the same driver that was used in only one model of Marshall cabs, the Mode Four. so the 60L would not be the same driver as regular OEM Marshall V30s.

what some people refer to as the "super" V30 and that they were at one time also supplied to Mesa.

i too have read that the Mesa V30s are different somehow from regular V30s and from the 60Ls.

add all that to the Made in England vs. Made in China thing re: V30s, and it can get pretty confusing. you might try the 60Ls--i recently got a pair, and to me they sound distinctly different from V30s, with more bite or grit or edge. or you might just have to keep searching for an old Marshall cab of similar vintage as the one you had.

 

[SkunkWorks]

When you say the 60L are the ones made for Marshall are you talking about all factory loaded Vintage 30 Marshall cabs or specifically the ones that say "Marshall Vintage" on the drivers like the 1960AV and BV cabs?

neither, actually--the 60Ls are supposed to be the same driver that was used in only one model of Marshall cabs, the Mode Four. so the 60L would not be the same driver as regular OEM Marshall V30s.

what some people refer to as the "super" V30 and that they were at one time also supplied to Mesa.

i too have read that the Mesa V30s are different somehow from regular V30s and from the 60Ls.

add all that to the Made in England vs. Made in China thing re: V30s, and it can get pretty confusing. you might try the 60Ls--i recently got a pair, and to me they sound distinctly different from V30s, with more bite or grit or edge. or you might just have to keep searching for an old Marshall cab of similar vintage as the one you had.

See that confuses me even more. According to Dave at Avatar the 60L wouldn't be in any Marshall cabinet at all. I specifically asked him if this driver is in any Marshall cabinet... his reply was simply... VOX.

Also, where you used the phrase "regular OEM Marshall V30s" are you saying all Marshall OEM V30 drivers apart from the Mode 4 are the same driver including the "Marshall Vintage" labeled ones in the 1960AV and 1960BV cabinets? In other words, if I want specifically those V30's that are in the AV and BV cabinets (regardless of whether they are so called super V30's or the same thing as the 60L) do I actually need to limit my search for those drivers to those 2 specific Marshall cabinets... or are those the V30 that Marshall uses in ALL of their V30 loaded cabinets? I've never seen the labels on other Marshall factory V30 loaded cabs, I've personally only seen ones that were replaced with aftermarket Celestion branded Vintage 30 and the Marshall branded ones in the AV and BV cabs so that's why I ask.

 

[NewWorldMan]

In other words, if I want specifically those V30's that are in the AV and BV cabinets (regardless of whether they are so called super V30's or the same thing as the 60L) do I actually need to limit my search for those drivers to those 2 specific Marshall cabinets... or are those the V30 that Marshall uses in ALL of their V30 loaded cabinets? I've never seen the labels on other Marshall factory V30 loaded cabs, I've personally only seen ones that were replaced with aftermarket Celestion branded Vintage 30 and the Marshall branded ones in the AV and BV cabs so that's why I ask.

Per Celestion, the V30's that they make for Mesa and Marshall are both proprietary designs and are only made for those 2 companies. At least they we're in the past, I don't know if that's still the case today.

 

[locoed]

I myself thought the Black Shadows were Chinese and the 70 watt V-30's were English,and the newer 60 watt speakers were
Chinese as well,i can only hear a slight difference in sound,the 70 watt were a little fuller.Just my ear opinion.
Not sure if my 1x12 Mesa is original but it's 70 watts to.

 

[some dude]

I myself thought the Black Shadows were Chinese and the 70 watt V-30's were English,and the newer 60 watt speakers were
Chinese as well,i can only hear a slight difference in sound,the 70 watt were a little fuller.Just my ear opinion.
Not sure if my 1x12 Mesa is original but it's 70 watts to.

"Black Shadows" are Mesa's own OEM brand name and they used to stick them on every OEM speaker they used, although the practice seems to have died off with the exception of the MC90, which has no off the shelf equivalent. Over the years various Celestion and Eminence speakers have carried the Black Shadow labels and were made in either the UK or the US, respectively.

Current "Black Shadows" are the Celestion MC-90. It's a custom speaker made for Mesa in the UK that's based off the old G12-80 (not the Classic Lead 80).

And to add to the confusion, the Black Shadow "Vintage" speakers aren't V30s. They're Eminence VS-12s.

So far as I know Mesa has never relabelled V30s as Black Shadows. I'm guessing that they wanted people to know they were using V30s for marketing reasons, so they made it obvious.


I asked one of the dudes at Mesa about the 60w/70w thing and was told it's the same speaker it's always been, they just updated their literature so that it no longer conflicts with the information on the Celestion website. If you look on the back of the cabs most of them should still be labelled 140w or 280w and will continue to do so until they run out of stickers, at which time they'll update those as well.


My guess (although I never thought to ask at the time) is that they were tired of people phoning them to ask why their cabs were mislabelled 280w when according to the Celestion website V30s were only 60w speakers...

 

[D-Rock]

On a related note, do the black and white speaker wires that Mesa uses have soldered ends or clips?
Never checked mine...

*Edit.... from what I can see from pics on the net it looks they are all soldered.

 

[D-Rock]

Notice on this list, Mesa lists the 70 watt V30's as 12" Fillmore V30's and the 60 watt V30's as 12" Celestion V30's..........(?)

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/ ... akers.html

 

[locoed]

I myself thought the Black Shadows were Chinese and the 70 watt V-30's were English,and the newer 60 watt speakers were
Chinese as well,i can only hear a slight difference in sound,the 70 watt were a little fuller.Just my ear opinion.
Not sure if my 1x12 Mesa is original but it's 70 watts to.

"Black Shadows" are Mesa's own OEM brand name and they used to stick them on every OEM speaker they used, although the practice seems to have died off with the exception of the MC90, which has no off the shelf equivalent. Over the years various Celestion and Eminence speakers have carried the Black Shadow labels and were made in either the UK or the US, respectively.

Current "Black Shadows" are the Celestion MC-90. It's a custom speaker made for Mesa in the UK that's based off the old G12-80 (not the Classic Lead 80).

And to add to the confusion, the Black Shadow "Vintage" speakers aren't V30s. They're Eminence VS-12s.

So far as I know Mesa has never relabelled V30s as Black Shadows. I'm guessing that they wanted people to know they were using V30s for marketing reasons, so they made it obvious.


I asked one of the dudes at Mesa about the 60w/70w thing and was told it's the same speaker it's always been, they just updated their literature so that it no longer conflicts with the information on the Celestion website. If you look on the back of the cabs most of them should still be labelled 140w or 280w and will continue to do so until they run out of stickers, at which time they'll update those as well.


My guess (although I never thought to ask at the time) is that they were tired of people phoning them to ask why their cabs were mislabelled 280w when according to the Celestion website V30s were only 60w speakers...

Very informative,thank you,i had no idea Mesa used Eminence speakers,i always thought,early on anyway that those were made for Soldano,but since the mid 90's i started to see them more.

 

[SkunkWorks]

In other words, if I want specifically those V30's that are in the AV and BV cabinets (regardless of whether they are so called super V30's or the same thing as the 60L) do I actually need to limit my search for those drivers to those 2 specific Marshall cabinets... or are those the V30 that Marshall uses in ALL of their V30 loaded cabinets? I've never seen the labels on other Marshall factory V30 loaded cabs, I've personally only seen ones that were replaced with aftermarket Celestion branded Vintage 30 and the Marshall branded ones in the AV and BV cabs so that's why I ask.

Per Celestion, the V30's that they make for Mesa and Marshall are both proprietary designs and are only made for those 2 companies. At least they we're in the past, I don't know if that's still the case today.

So then are all the other Marshall V30's (factory loaded) the ones with the "Marshall Vintage" label on them like the ones in the AV and BV cabinets? If so, then that means they are probably the exact same driver (whatever that may be) and I don't have to limit my search to drivers from those two specific cabinets... which might make it a bit easier to find what I'm looking for.

 

[some dude]

Notice on this list, Mesa lists the 70 watt V30's as 12" Fillmore V30's and the 60 watt V30's as 12" Celestion V30's..........(?)

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/ ... akers.html

Fillmore is Mesa's house brand. Mesa already builds bass speakers (Powerhouse series) and their plan was to expand it to include the C90 and V30. For whatever reason the project was more or less abandoned back in 2004, however they're still listed in their literature for some reason.

 

[_actual time_]

... the 60Ls are supposed to be the same driver that was used in only one model of Marshall cabs, the Mode Four. so the 60L would not be the same driver as regular OEM Marshall V30s.

See that confuses me even more. According to Dave at Avatar the 60L wouldn't be in any Marshall cabinet at all. I specifically asked him if this driver is in any Marshall cabinet... his reply was simply... VOX.

i noticed that in your post. all i can say is that it contradicts everything i've read about the 60Ls, including from people who got their info from Dave and people who peeled the labels off their 60Ls and underneath found the same labels as the drivers in the Mode Four cabs.

who knows. aren't Vox and Marshall owned by the same company?

Also, where you used the phrase "regular OEM Marshall V30s" are you saying all Marshall OEM V30 drivers apart from the Mode 4 are the same driver including the "Marshall Vintage" labeled ones in the 1960AV and 1960BV cabinets?

sorry, i have no idea. all i meant was "any other OEM Marshall V30s that are not the ones in the Mode Four cab." i don't know if there are even more different models of OEM Marshall V30s or not.

the 60w/70w thing that some dude says, i've read in multiple places too--it doesn't mean they're different speakers; it's just Celestion's more conservative power rating compared to Mesa's. but the Mesa V30s do seem to sound different from the Celestion ones, so they may actually be a different speaker anyway.

and testing this weekend, i'm finding a sound difference between China V30s with the "Celestion International" label and other China ones with the "Celestion International Vauxhall Rd Ipswitch" etc label. i think i'm going to quit testing and just put each pair in the cab that they sound way better in.

 

[SkunkWorks]

Hmmm. So I'm really curious now if anyone here has a V30 (marketed as having Vintage 30's) factory loaded Marshal cab that is not the 1960AV or 1960BV and what the label on the back says. If anyone has a picture that would be even better

 

[Doubleneck]

Hmmm. So I'm really curious now if anyone here has a V30 (marketed as having Vintage 30's) factory loaded Marshal cab that is not the 1960AV or 1960BV and what the label on the back says. If anyone has a picture that would be even better

I have a 1960 AV cab serial # starting M2002- & a 1960BV cab serial # starting M2001- and they sound great. They are both rated at 280W. I have never opened them up to find out what's inside though.

 

[SkunkWorks]

Hmmm. So I'm really curious now if anyone here has a V30 (marketed as having Vintage 30's) factory loaded Marshal cab that is not the 1960AV or 1960BV and what the label on the back says. If anyone has a picture that would be even better

I have a 1960 AV cab serial # starting M2002- & a 1960BV cab serial # starting M2001- and they sound great. They are both rated at 280W. I have never opened them up to find out what's inside though.

Actually I can answer what's on the label of those drivers in those cabinets... it's the "Marshall Vintage" label. But what I want to find out is if this exact same driver with this label is what Marshall is using in other models of their cabinets that are marketed as being loaded with Vintage 30's. Whatever those drivers are, I know I really like them and want to find a set of them. It could very well turn out that they are just regular V30's and not the ones with the larger magnet and different voicing like Dave's own description of the Hellatone 60L. But like you say, they do sound great, and to me, the cab I briefly owned that was using them (1960BV) noticeably had more girth than my other Marshall 4x12 cab that had aftermarket "Vintage 30" labeled drivers in it.

 

[_actual time_]

Whatever those (1960BV) drivers are, I know I really like them and want to find a set of them. It could very well turn out that they are just regular V30's and not the ones with the larger magnet and different voicing like Dave's own description of the Hellatone 60L.

right, but they also could be a proprietary V30 made only for Marshall, like NewWorldMan mentioned, different from both regular after-market V30s and from 60Ls aka Marshall Mode Four drivers.

that's why this V30 stuff is so nuts--Mesa and Marshall may be getting unique models of V30 that aren't available anywhere else, maybe even more than one, but those and the after-market ones are still called V30s.

 

[SkunkWorks]

Whatever those (1960BV) drivers are, I know I really like them and want to find a set of them. It could very well turn out that they are just regular V30's and not the ones with the larger magnet and different voicing like Dave's own description of the Hellatone 60L.

right, but they also could be a proprietary V30 made only for Marshall, like NewWorldMan mentioned, different from both regular after-market V30s and from 60Ls aka Marshall Mode Four drivers.

that's why this V30 stuff is so nuts--Mesa and Marshall may be getting unique models of V30 that aren't available anywhere else, maybe even more than one, but those and the after-market ones are still called V30s.

Right, gotcha. Yes, that is possible... something different altogether but still in the V30 family.

I'm still curious if anyone has a Marshall vintage 30 factory loaded cabinet that has the actual vintage 30 label on the drivers as opposed to the "Marshall Vintage" label like the drivers in the 1960AV and BV... or do they all say "Marshall Vintage?" Actually I need to go do some research and find out what other cabs of theirs are even supposed to have v30's.

 

[Nigel]

This could also be wiring, fellas.

A buddy had a marshall 1960 "Vintage" cab, and I removed the 16/8/4 jack assembly, changed it to series-parallel, and it was a whole new cabinet. Please account for wiring when doing comparison. It's night and day in terms of difference...