Wizard Clones?

[lespaul6]

He is in Australia so that may take some time. Also shipping would be a bitch coming from over there. I know its $20 bucks just for the PCB to arrive and takes about a week and a half to two weeks after shipping.

Did he return emails promptly to you? just curious

Ok.. thanks!


Sometimes and sometimes it took a couple days.

 

[kdmay]

You’re right, iron is critical in these amps (as per the SLO also).

But “proprietary” doesn’t mean you can’t replicate per se. I doubt there is anything particularly unique about the winding pattern and steel type Mercury uses for these. Size and sag (or lack thereof) is critical, and this can easily be replicated, as I have done with Heyboer.

BTW - have you ever been in the same room as a SLO clone with O’Netics iron, compared to a real SLO? I have (my clone) on 3 different occasions and my clone certainly held up against the real deal, and I have very critical ears. The O’Netics iron is the real deal. I have considered building a 50w MC2 with the spare O’Netics 50w set I have here, but I need another 30 volts or so for the plates. Might still use the OT though....

Jason (Headfirst Amplification) is a mate of mine and I helped design/verify the PCBs.

The PCBs are the real deal. I’ve played every one of his builds and will soon AB against a real Wizard.

Build with quality iron and big voltage and you will get the Wizard sound for sure.

For the DIYers out there, it’s a great option that we have never had.

Here's the problem, and it's the same problem the SLO clone guys have.....without the proprietary transformers, you won't get there. The Wizard tone IS the power section; that is where the magic is. Unless you can get close to the monstrous trannys he puts in there, no cigar.
It would be great if they can pull it off, so I truly hope it does happen..but I seriously doubt it will measure up to the real deal in an A/B with people in the room...clips won't be enough, since I can hear a 6505 vs SLO clip and WOW they sound the same! Nope. Not in the room they don't.

 

[burger]

Hi all,

Jason here, I'm the guy with the Wizard PCB's at headfirstamplification.com

A few points based on the thread above;
1) Nik at Ceriatone does not yet do a Wizard amp. In fact he has been liaising with me on a couple of options for Ceriatone, but he has yet to add one to his line up.
2) I'll happily ship my PCB's worldwide. They have gone everywhere in the wild; Bulgaria, Finland, New Zealand, Italy, USA and everywhere in between.
3) I only do full amp builds for local guys in Australia. Building and shipping amps around the world is not my thing. If you'd like to go down this path your best bet is to find a local tech to build you one using my PCB, schematic and build notes. A couple of guys in Europe have gone down this path with great results.
4) I believe the main reason that there are so few Wizard clones around is that they have complex relay based switching, and to do so in a turret board build is a major PITA. Believe me I tried, which is how I ended up going down the PCB route.
5) If there was sufficient interest for pre-populated boards, I could certainly do those and ship anywhere. Please send me a msg from my website if you're interested in that option.

With respect to how my builds sound....ask kdmay, he's heard them "in-the-room".

 

[Racerxrated]

You’re right, iron is critical in these amps (as per the SLO also).

But “proprietary” doesn’t mean you can’t replicate per se. I doubt there is anything particularly unique about the winding pattern and steel type Mercury uses for these. Size and sag (or lack thereof) is critical, and this can easily be replicated, as I have done with Heyboer.

BTW - have you ever been in the same room as a SLO clone with O’Netics iron, compared to a real SLO? I have (my clone) on 3 different occasions and my clone certainly held up against the real deal, and I have very critical ears. The O’Netics iron is the real deal. I have considered building a 50w MC2 with the spare O’Netics 50w set I have here, but I need another 30 volts or so for the plates. Might still use the OT though....

Jason (Headfirst Amplification) is a mate of mine and I helped design/verify the PCBs.

The PCBs are the real deal. I’ve played every one of his builds and will soon AB against a real Wizard.

Build with quality iron and big voltage and you will get the Wizard sound for sure.

For the DIYers out there, it’s a great option that we have never had.

Here's the problem, and it's the same problem the SLO clone guys have.....without the proprietary transformers, you won't get there. The Wizard tone IS the power section; that is where the magic is. Unless you can get close to the monstrous trannys he puts in there, no cigar.
It would be great if they can pull it off, so I truly hope it does happen..but I seriously doubt it will measure up to the real deal in an A/B with people in the room...clips won't be enough, since I can hear a 6505 vs SLO clip and WOW they sound the same! Nope. Not in the room they don't.

I have played 2 SLO clones, both at a music go round a couple yrs apart. Both had the Onetics iron and neither had that 'thump' or 'bloom' that the SLO or a Wizard has when you put some volume behind them..that is key IMO when you are talking about feeling that amp in the room, in front of you pushing air. If these amps just 'got louder' like most amps do, they would be among the rest of the crowded room full of cool amps but that 'push' they give is what sets SLOs and Wizards apart.

 

[burger]

I have played 2 SLO clones, both at a music go round a couple yrs apart. Both had the Onetics iron and neither had that 'thump' or 'bloom' that the SLO or a Wizard has when you put some volume behind them..that is key IMO when you are talking about feeling that amp in the room, in front of you pushing air. If these amps just 'got louder' like most amps do, they would be among the rest of the crowded room full of cool amps but that 'push' they give is what sets SLOs and Wizards apart.

That's cool. I always say, if you'll only settle for the real deal, then buy the real deal.

 

[Racerxrated]

I have played 2 SLO clones, both at a music go round a couple yrs apart. Both had the Onetics iron and neither had that 'thump' or 'bloom' that the SLO or a Wizard has when you put some volume behind them..that is key IMO when you are talking about feeling that amp in the room, in front of you pushing air. If these amps just 'got louder' like most amps do, they would be among the rest of the crowded room full of cool amps but that 'push' they give is what sets SLOs and Wizards apart.

That's cool. I always say, if you'll only settle for the real deal, then buy the real deal.

Hey, more power to you if you are able to pull off a real clone of a Wizard....they are amazing..I still have some regrets selling the MCI 100w I had..but that sale led to my C+ Coliseum. I'd love another Wizard...if I can get one at a reduced price that's a win/win.

 

[rickgk]

Hi,

Jason from Headfirst built me a 50 watt MC2, with full midi.
I've only had it for a few days but I'm absolutely loving it so far, it well and truly holds it's own against any of my other big name amps.
Freidman BE50dlx
Suhr SE100
Diezel Herbert
Freidman PT20

I'll chime back in with a full report after I gig it in a few weeks, but side by side comparisons at home under reasonable volume are very promising.

I've never played an actual Wizard so I can't say how it compares, but I love my friedmans and my Suhr se100 and this amp is every bit as good (another great flavour of a hot rodded marshall) fatter than the friedmans but still really tight in the low end, feels great under the fingers, and is so harmonically rich.

Jason has done a great job, very happy with it so far.

 

[burger]

Hi,

Jason from Headfirst built me a 50 watt MC2, with full midi.
I've only had it for a few days but I'm absolutely loving it so far, it well and truly holds it's own against any of my other big name amps.
Freidman BE50dlx
Suhr SE100
Diezel Herbert
Freidman PT20

I'll chime back in with a full report after I gig it in a few weeks, but side by side comparisons at home under reasonable volume are very promising.

I've never played an actual Wizard so I can't say how it compares, but I love my friedmans and my Suhr se100 and this amp is every bit as good, fatter than the friedmans but still really tight in the low end, feels great under the fingers, and is so harmonically rich.

Jason has done a great job, very happy with it so far.

Thanks Rick, yours came out great man. I'm looking forward to more updates after you've gigged it.

 

[scottosan]

You’re right, iron is critical in these amps (as per the SLO also).

But “proprietary” doesn’t mean you can’t replicate per se. I doubt there is anything particularly unique about the winding pattern and steel type Mercury uses for these. Size and sag (or lack thereof) is critical, and this can easily be replicated, as I have done with Heyboer.

BTW - have you ever been in the same room as a SLO clone with O’Netics iron, compared to a real SLO? I have (my clone) on 3 different occasions and my clone certainly held up against the real deal, and I have very critical ears. The O’Netics iron is the real deal. I have considered building a 50w MC2 with the spare O’Netics 50w set I have here, but I need another 30 volts or so for the plates. Might still use the OT though....

Jason (Headfirst Amplification) is a mate of mine and I helped design/verify the PCBs.

The PCBs are the real deal. I’ve played every one of his builds and will soon AB against a real Wizard.

Build with quality iron and big voltage and you will get the Wizard sound for sure.

For the DIYers out there, it’s a great option that we have never had.

Here's the problem, and it's the same problem the SLO clone guys have.....without the proprietary transformers, you won't get there. The Wizard tone IS the power section; that is where the magic is. Unless you can get close to the monstrous trannys he puts in there, no cigar.
It would be great if they can pull it off, so I truly hope it does happen..but I seriously doubt it will measure up to the real deal in an A/B with people in the room...clips won't be enough, since I can hear a 6505 vs SLO clip and WOW they sound the same! Nope. Not in the room they don't.

I have played 2 SLO clones, both at a music go round a couple yrs apart. Both had the Onetics iron and neither had that 'thump' or 'bloom' that the SLO or a Wizard has when you put some volume behind them..that is key IMO when you are talking about feeling that amp in the room, in front of you pushing air. If these amps just 'got louder' like most amps do, they would be among the rest of the crowded room full of cool amps but that 'push' they give is what sets SLOs and Wizards apart.

Not a fair comparison, since the SLO uses deyoung transformers.. The Deyoung has its own winding recipe and dimensions and turkey is a unique transformer. Their is nothing unique about the way the Mercury does their iron. Many of their custom models are existing models with custom stickers. I had amp made by builders early on that had off the shelf tags on their transformers, only to have a subsequent amp of the same model come out with the same spec transformer, but with their custom sticker. All Mercuriys are custom, but if their is any magic mojo, it's in the sticker.

 

[Racerxrated]

You’re right, iron is critical in these amps (as per the SLO also).

But “proprietary” doesn’t mean you can’t replicate per se. I doubt there is anything particularly unique about the winding pattern and steel type Mercury uses for these. Size and sag (or lack thereof) is critical, and this can easily be replicated, as I have done with Heyboer.

BTW - have you ever been in the same room as a SLO clone with O’Netics iron, compared to a real SLO? I have (my clone) on 3 different occasions and my clone certainly held up against the real deal, and I have very critical ears. The O’Netics iron is the real deal. I have considered building a 50w MC2 with the spare O’Netics 50w set I have here, but I need another 30 volts or so for the plates. Might still use the OT though....

Jason (Headfirst Amplification) is a mate of mine and I helped design/verify the PCBs.

The PCBs are the real deal. I’ve played every one of his builds and will soon AB against a real Wizard.

Build with quality iron and big voltage and you will get the Wizard sound for sure.

For the DIYers out there, it’s a great option that we have never had.

Here's the problem, and it's the same problem the SLO clone guys have.....without the proprietary transformers, you won't get there. The Wizard tone IS the power section; that is where the magic is. Unless you can get close to the monstrous trannys he puts in there, no cigar.
It would be great if they can pull it off, so I truly hope it does happen..but I seriously doubt it will measure up to the real deal in an A/B with people in the room...clips won't be enough, since I can hear a 6505 vs SLO clip and WOW they sound the same! Nope. Not in the room they don't.

I have played 2 SLO clones, both at a music go round a couple yrs apart. Both had the Onetics iron and neither had that 'thump' or 'bloom' that the SLO or a Wizard has when you put some volume behind them..that is key IMO when you are talking about feeling that amp in the room, in front of you pushing air. If these amps just 'got louder' like most amps do, they would be among the rest of the crowded room full of cool amps but that 'push' they give is what sets SLOs and Wizards apart.

Not a fair comparison, since the SLO uses deyoung transformers.. The Deyoung has its own winding recipe and dimensions and turkey is a unique transformer. Their is nothing unique about the way the Mercury does their iron. Many of their custom models are existing models with custom stickers. I had amp made by builders early on that had off the shelf tags on their transformers, only to have a subsequent amp of the same model come out with the same spec transformer, but with their custom sticker. All Mercuriys are custom, but if their is any magic mojo, it's in the sticker.

So, are you saying that one who builds a Wizard clone can order the same transformers that Rick uses? Somehow I doubt that’s possible..I’d imagine he’d have that agreement NOT to sell a Wizard transformer to anyone but him.

 

[technomancer]

You’re right, iron is critical in these amps (as per the SLO also).

But “proprietary” doesn’t mean you can’t replicate per se. I doubt there is anything particularly unique about the winding pattern and steel type Mercury uses for these. Size and sag (or lack thereof) is critical, and this can easily be replicated, as I have done with Heyboer.

BTW - have you ever been in the same room as a SLO clone with O’Netics iron, compared to a real SLO? I have (my clone) on 3 different occasions and my clone certainly held up against the real deal, and I have very critical ears. The O’Netics iron is the real deal. I have considered building a 50w MC2 with the spare O’Netics 50w set I have here, but I need another 30 volts or so for the plates. Might still use the OT though....

Jason (Headfirst Amplification) is a mate of mine and I helped design/verify the PCBs.

The PCBs are the real deal. I’ve played every one of his builds and will soon AB against a real Wizard.

Build with quality iron and big voltage and you will get the Wizard sound for sure.

For the DIYers out there, it’s a great option that we have never had.

Here's the problem, and it's the same problem the SLO clone guys have.....without the proprietary transformers, you won't get there. The Wizard tone IS the power section; that is where the magic is. Unless you can get close to the monstrous trannys he puts in there, no cigar.
It would be great if they can pull it off, so I truly hope it does happen..but I seriously doubt it will measure up to the real deal in an A/B with people in the room...clips won't be enough, since I can hear a 6505 vs SLO clip and WOW they sound the same! Nope. Not in the room they don't.

I have played 2 SLO clones, both at a music go round a couple yrs apart. Both had the Onetics iron and neither had that 'thump' or 'bloom' that the SLO or a Wizard has when you put some volume behind them..that is key IMO when you are talking about feeling that amp in the room, in front of you pushing air. If these amps just 'got louder' like most amps do, they would be among the rest of the crowded room full of cool amps but that 'push' they give is what sets SLOs and Wizards apart.

Not a fair comparison, since the SLO uses deyoung transformers.. The Deyoung has its own winding recipe and dimensions and turkey is a unique transformer. Their is nothing unique about the way the Mercury does their iron. Many of their custom models are existing models with custom stickers. I had amp made by builders early on that had off the shelf tags on their transformers, only to have a subsequent amp of the same model come out with the same spec transformer, but with their custom sticker. All Mercuriys are custom, but if their is any magic mojo, it's in the sticker.

So, are you saying that one who builds a Wizard clone can order the same transformers that Rick uses? Somehow I doubt that’s possible..I’d imagine he’d have that agreement NOT to sell a Wizard transformer to anyone but him.

To buy one with the Wizard branding? No I'll guarantee you can't. To buy a Mercury transformer with identical ratings? Yes you should be able to without a problem. No winder on the planet is going to guarantee they won't sell a 510v Marshall transformer to anyone else, especially not for a builder that's only putting out a handful of amps a year like Wizard.

 

[Racerxrated]

You’re right, iron is critical in these amps (as per the SLO also).

But “proprietary” doesn’t mean you can’t replicate per se. I doubt there is anything particularly unique about the winding pattern and steel type Mercury uses for these. Size and sag (or lack thereof) is critical, and this can easily be replicated, as I have done with Heyboer.

BTW - have you ever been in the same room as a SLO clone with O’Netics iron, compared to a real SLO? I have (my clone) on 3 different occasions and my clone certainly held up against the real deal, and I have very critical ears. The O’Netics iron is the real deal. I have considered building a 50w MC2 with the spare O’Netics 50w set I have here, but I need another 30 volts or so for the plates. Might still use the OT though....

Jason (Headfirst Amplification) is a mate of mine and I helped design/verify the PCBs.

The PCBs are the real deal. I’ve played every one of his builds and will soon AB against a real Wizard.

Build with quality iron and big voltage and you will get the Wizard sound for sure.

For the DIYers out there, it’s a great option that we have never had.

Here's the problem, and it's the same problem the SLO clone guys have.....without the proprietary transformers, you won't get there. The Wizard tone IS the power section; that is where the magic is. Unless you can get close to the monstrous trannys he puts in there, no cigar.
It would be great if they can pull it off, so I truly hope it does happen..but I seriously doubt it will measure up to the real deal in an A/B with people in the room...clips won't be enough, since I can hear a 6505 vs SLO clip and WOW they sound the same! Nope. Not in the room they don't.

I have played 2 SLO clones, both at a music go round a couple yrs apart. Both had the Onetics iron and neither had that 'thump' or 'bloom' that the SLO or a Wizard has when you put some volume behind them..that is key IMO when you are talking about feeling that amp in the room, in front of you pushing air. If these amps just 'got louder' like most amps do, they would be among the rest of the crowded room full of cool amps but that 'push' they give is what sets SLOs and Wizards apart.

Not a fair comparison, since the SLO uses deyoung transformers.. The Deyoung has its own winding recipe and dimensions and turkey is a unique transformer. Their is nothing unique about the way the Mercury does their iron. Many of their custom models are existing models with custom stickers. I had amp made by builders early on that had off the shelf tags on their transformers, only to have a subsequent amp of the same model come out with the same spec transformer, but with their custom sticker. All Mercuriys are custom, but if their is any magic mojo, it's in the sticker.

So, are you saying that one who builds a Wizard clone can order the same transformers that Rick uses? Somehow I doubt that’s possible..I’d imagine he’d have that agreement NOT to sell a Wizard transformer to anyone but him.

To buy one with the Wizard branding? No I'll guarantee you can't. To buy a Mercury transformer with identical ratings? Yes you should be able to without a problem. No winder on the planet is going to guarantee they won't sell a 510v Marshall transformer to anyone else, especially not for a builder that's only putting out a handful of amps a year like Wizard.

Is it that simple though? To get a trans that measures similarly? The SLO trans isn’t that hard to duplicate in output, yet those SLO clones don’t sound like SLOs to me. The DeYoungs are a hi fi trans and haven’t been duplicated, yet anyway.
Maybe there’s some mojo in the Wizard trans that allows for the clarity those amps have..that simply matching the voltage won’t recreate. Btw my old MCI had close to 600v on the plates lol..just ridiculous.
Like I said, it would be great to be able to clone one and not have to pay 5K new for one.

 

[lespaul6]

I'm pretty sure for the output tranny the input impedance is the most important factor.. so that has to be the same in the clone tranny. Then there's the use of M6 for that fidelity. Last the power transformer @ 510v should be exactly what you need to match. If anyone has more info please add or correct this

 

[scottosan]

You’re right, iron is critical in these amps (as per the SLO also).

But “proprietary” doesn’t mean you can’t replicate per se. I doubt there is anything particularly unique about the winding pattern and steel type Mercury uses for these. Size and sag (or lack thereof) is critical, and this can easily be replicated, as I have done with Heyboer.

BTW - have you ever been in the same room as a SLO clone with O’Netics iron, compared to a real SLO? I have (my clone) on 3 different occasions and my clone certainly held up against the real deal, and I have very critical ears. The O’Netics iron is the real deal. I have considered building a 50w MC2 with the spare O’Netics 50w set I have here, but I need another 30 volts or so for the plates. Might still use the OT though....

Jason (Headfirst Amplification) is a mate of mine and I helped design/verify the PCBs.

The PCBs are the real deal. I’ve played every one of his builds and will soon AB against a real Wizard.

Build with quality iron and big voltage and you will get the Wizard sound for sure.

For the DIYers out there, it’s a great option that we have never had.

Here's the problem, and it's the same problem the SLO clone guys have.....without the proprietary transformers, you won't get there. The Wizard tone IS the power section; that is where the magic is. Unless you can get close to the monstrous trannys he puts in there, no cigar.
It would be great if they can pull it off, so I truly hope it does happen..but I seriously doubt it will measure up to the real deal in an A/B with people in the room...clips won't be enough, since I can hear a 6505 vs SLO clip and WOW they sound the same! Nope. Not in the room they don't.

I have played 2 SLO clones, both at a music go round a couple yrs apart. Both had the Onetics iron and neither had that 'thump' or 'bloom' that the SLO or a Wizard has when you put some volume behind them..that is key IMO when you are talking about feeling that amp in the room, in front of you pushing air. If these amps just 'got louder' like most amps do, they would be among the rest of the crowded room full of cool amps but that 'push' they give is what sets SLOs and Wizards apart.

Not a fair comparison, since the SLO uses deyoung transformers.. The Deyoung has its own winding recipe and dimensions and turkey is a unique transformer. Their is nothing unique about the way the Mercury does their iron. Many of their custom models are existing models with custom stickers. I had amp made by builders early on that had off the shelf tags on their transformers, only to have a subsequent amp of the same model come out with the same spec transformer, but with their custom sticker. All Mercuriys are custom, but if their is any magic mojo, it's in the sticker.

So, are you saying that one who builds a Wizard clone can order the same transformers that Rick uses? Somehow I doubt that’s possible..I’d imagine he’d have that agreement NOT to sell a Wizard transformer to anyone but him.

To buy one with the Wizard branding? No I'll guarantee you can't. To buy a Mercury transformer with identical ratings? Yes you should be able to without a problem. No winder on the planet is going to guarantee they won't sell a 510v Marshall transformer to anyone else, especially not for a builder that's only putting out a handful of amps a year like Wizard.

Is it that simple though? To get a trans that measures similarly? The SLO trans isn’t that hard to duplicate in output, yet those SLO clones don’t sound like SLOs to me. The DeYoungs are a hi fi trans and haven’t been duplicated, yet anyway.
Maybe there’s some mojo in the Wizard trans that allows for the clarity those amps have..that simply matching the voltage won’t recreate. Btw my old MCI had close to 600v on the plates lol..just ridiculous.
Like I said, it would be great to be able to clone one and not have to pay 5K new for one.

Noone has a made a Deyoung clone that I am aware of. Bud from Onetics was very clear that his transformers were not copies.

The important thing to note, is that most custom builders dont specialize in Transformer design. More often than not, after putting their circuit into enough of a variation of amps, they develop a preference. Marshall has had quite a few transformers over time, so anyone that has dealt with a large sample size of them certainly knows which ones they like. From there it's easy to spec out the transformer of their liking. It's important to measure the voltage when reverse engineering these amps and you can figure out the primary impedance with some voltage measurements on the primaries and secondaries and a little math. Measuring the real transformer dimensions and identifying it it's self lead of not should get you a high level of accuracy as to which Mercury to buy. But the Deyoung is one of the few exceptions, because most people arent sending in their good OT's to get reverse engineered. I can tell you that the Roccaforte Amps had a DR designation on most of the amps. A few got out with the real part number. I can tell you that DR80-O in my Custom 80 is identical in every way to a O100JM

 

[CornNutz]

Talked to Mercury, they will not sell the Wizard spec transformers. I asked for close as possible Iron from their catalog.

Recommendation:
PT: Nothing in their catalog will work
Choke: MAR100-C 3Hy
OT: O100JM

From what I heard of Scotts Roccaforte (twice in person now) that OT sound damn good.

 

[scottosan]

Talked to Mercury, they will not sell the Wizard spec transformers. I asked for close as possible Iron from their catalog.

Recommendation:
PT: Nothing in their catalog will work
Choke: MAR100-C 3Hy
OT: O100JM

From what I heard of Scotts Roccaforte (twice in person now) that OT sound damn good.

I like it better than the Classictone

 

[norska]

I have a MCII built from Burger's kit and it is fucking killer. I had it done with KT88's and with that same MM OT recommendation and it's putting out 140 watts clean. I have a 2017 MCII that uses the e34L tube and I can honestly say that i like the clone as much as the real deal. The KT88 version is fucking massive sounding!

 

[lespaul6]

nice... would love to see your work. I want an el34 100 watter!

 

[mooncobra]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqP_UqHT8M8

I think it sounds good

 

[Thunkful]

Here's the problem, and it's the same problem the SLO clone guys have.....without the proprietary transformers, you won't get there. The Wizard tone IS the power section; that is where the magic is. Unless you can get close to the monstrous trannys he puts in there, no cigar.
It would be great if they can pull it off, so I truly hope it does happen..but I seriously doubt it will measure up to the real deal in an A/B with people in the room...clips won't be enough, since I can hear a 6505 vs SLO clip and WOW they sound the same! Nope. Not in the room they don't.

Are we talking about Power transformers here? My amp has a lighter weight toroidial one and i think it sounds great!