Turns out 60 watt Marks ARE faster!

[GJgo]

The first time I played a 60W Mark II I could tell that is was more aggressive in some way than its 4 & 6 tube brothers. I've owned enough of all of them to confirm this is a real thing with Mark IIs and IIIs, but I never could quantify it- until today! I'm working on a big comparo where I'm reamping a DI track over a backing track with a number of different Marks, and today I got to a 60. When I played it back I could tell the timing was all messed up, the reamp track was ahead of the backing track by a noticeable amount. So, I zoomed in on the stems & got my proof! They ARE faster!!

- Yellow is the DI track.
- Green is the 60
- Red is a Mark IV, and while I couldn't fit it in the screen shot, the other amps involved (a IIB and IIC+ Coliseum) were timed exactly like the IV so no need to show separately.

Anyway I wanted to share as I think this is pretty cool. The 60s have always been my favorite to play because of how aggressive they feel, and there it is.

 

[CrystalSky]

Cool observation!

 

[Exo-metal]

Knew it all along, but this IS very cool. Great post!!

 

[Techdeth]

Green is most agressive mark no matter the watts . My fav

 

[GJgo]

Green is most agressive mark no matter the watts . My fav

What you're hearing with the green is that the Class A tubes are in pentode, where all previous Simul Marks had the Class A tubes in triode. While pentode is more aggressive, it's not actually tracking faster like the 60s do.

Note that the Mark IV and V have a pentode/triode switch (as well as the IIB Coliseums) so you can have your cake & eat it too.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

No tube amp is literally "faster" or "slower" to process an input signal than any other. All tube amps propagate electricity at c and output signal at that same speed until it hits the speaker.

Statements about whether a given amp is "fast" or "slow" are generally misnomers for describing how much low end clips and disrupts the entire signal, and/or the length of time it takes an amp to recover from hard hits at poweramp clipping volumes.

Even the "slowest" tube amp ever made will begin to output an input signal at the same time as the "fastest" tube amp ever made.

Your DAW reamping timing or playback is off.

 

[Techdeth]

What you're hearing with the green is that the Class A tubes are in pentode, where all previous Simul Marks had the Class A tubes in triode. While pentode is more aggressive, it's not actually tracking faster like the 60s do.

Note that the Mark IV and V have a pentode/triode switch (as well as the IIB Coliseums) so you can have your cake & eat it too.

Mark 3++ Green is tight monster. Sounds modern af too

 

[Racerxrated]

No tube amp is literally "faster" or "slower" to process an input signal than any other. All tube amps propagate electricity at c and output signal at that same speed until it hits the speaker.

Statements about whether a given amp is "fast" or "slow" are generally misnomers for describing how much low end clips and disrupts the entire signal, and/or the length of time it takes an amp to recover from hard hits at poweramp clipping volumes.

Even the "slowest" tube amp ever made will begin to output an input signal at the same time as the "fastest" tube amp ever made.

Your DAW reamping timing or playback is off.

Sorry but you’re wrong. Some amps ARE faster when you play them….all you have to do is A/B them in person. It’s the feeling like it ‘plays itself’ vs another amp that has a slight ‘lag’ in the response. You’ll know it when you play one vs a different amp.
It’s a very small difference, probably In milliseconds but it absolutely IS noticeable.

The best example I’ve had was a 2C S combo, in comparison to a HRG C++ I had. Big difference in the two amps response. I’d always read about the non eq Mark having a faster response, that experience proved it to me.

 

[GJgo]

No tube amp is literally "faster" or "slower" to process an input signal than any other. All tube amps propagate electricity at c and output signal at that same speed until it hits the speaker.

Statements about whether a given amp is "fast" or "slow" are generally misnomers for describing how much low end clips and disrupts the entire signal, and/or the length of time it takes an amp to recover from hard hits at poweramp clipping volumes.

Even the "slowest" tube amp ever made will begin to output an input signal at the same time as the "fastest" tube amp ever made.

Your DAW reamping timing or playback is off.

Sorry dude, I thought that first as well so I confirmed the stems are placed exactly as recorded, there's nothing wrong with my reamping. Everything in this testing is held ceteris paribus (including all levels) other than the amp switchouts. The recording shows in hard terms that the 60 is responding faster.

 

[Strandberg Junkie]

SRG Red

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Sorry but you’re wrong. Some amps ARE faster when you play them….all you have to do is A/B them in person. It’s the feeling like it ‘plays itself’ vs another amp that has a slight ‘lag’ in the response. You’ll know it when you play one vs a different amp.
It’s a very small difference, probably In milliseconds but it absolutely IS noticeable.

The best example I’ve had was a 2C S combo, in comparison to a HRG C++ I had. Big difference in the two amps response. I’d always read about the non eq Mark having a faster response, that experience proved it to me.

No man, I'm not wrong here.

I've reamped a ton of different amps myself and the only thing I've ever had to do to line them up perfectly IF I had to do anything was invert the phase, because not all amps have the same number of phase-inverting gain stages.

No tube amp is literally "faster" or "slower" to process and output a signal than any other tube amp in any practically measurable sense. That's not what those terms mean here. Guitar players use "fast" and "slow" as tactile terms to describe sag and clipping, or whatever other nebulous thing they're hearing but can't describe objectively, similar to how they use "bright" and "dark" to describe treble content relative to mids and bass, or other words like how "shimmery" or "glassy" are used to describe the more elusive traits of tube amp sound but don't literally mean those things.

The first time I played a 60W Mark II I could tell that is was more aggressive in some way than its 4 & 6 tube brothers. I've owned enough of all of them to confirm this is a real thing with Mark IIs and IIIs, but I never could quantify it- until today! I'm working on a big comparo where I'm reamping a DI track over a backing track with a number of different Marks, and today I got to a 60. When I played it back I could tell the timing was all messed up, the reamp track was ahead of the backing track by a noticeable amount. So, I zoomed in on the stems & got my proof! They ARE faster!!

- Yellow is the DI track.
- Green is the 60
- Red is a Mark IV, and while I couldn't fit it in the screen shot, the other amps involved (a IIB and IIC+ Coliseum) were timed exactly like the IV so no need to show separately.

Anyway I wanted to share as I think this is pretty cool. The 60s have always been my favorite to play because of how aggressive they feel, and there it is.

View attachment 205951

How far are you zoomed in here? How many ms difference is that graph showing between the same wave peaks of the different stems exactly?

Also, did you use the same mic and cab (or IR) for all stems? If you used different cabs or different mics between amps, unequal distance between the mic and speaker surface could cause the timing issue. Different IR's or sets of IR's (IR's do not have standardized initial start times so one IR can be literally "faster" than other IR's) then that is a possible cause of the stem misalignment.

 

[psychodave]

You can pull the outer (or inner) pairs of tubes on a Mark to get the 60 watts. ?. Typically you would adjust the ohms down one.

 

[Racerxrated]

No man, I'm not wrong here.

I've reamped a ton of different amps myself and the only thing I've ever had to do to line them up perfectly IF I had to do anything was invert the phase, because not all amps have the same number of phase-inverting gain stages.

No tube amp is literally "faster" or "slower" to process and output a signal than any other tube amp in any practically measurable sense. That's not what those terms mean here. Guitar players use "fast" and "slow" as tactile terms to describe sag and clipping, or whatever other nebulous thing they're hearing but can't describe objectively, similar to how they use "bright" and "dark" to describe treble content relative to mids and bass, or other words like how "shimmery" or "glassy" are used to describe the more elusive traits of tube amp sound but don't literally mean those things.




How far are you zoomed in here? How many ms difference is that graph showing between the same wave peaks of the different stems exactly?

Also, did you use the same mic and cab (or IR) for all stems? If you used different cabs or different mics between amps, or different IR's or sets of IR's (IR's do not have standardized initial start times so one IR can be literally "faster" than other IR's) then that is a possible cause of the stem misalignment.

Maybe I’m talking about a different thing altogether….what I mean is, plugging into and playing an amp, same guitar/pedals etc then plugging into another immediately (using the same exact guitar pedals cab) and noting how much faster the response is, in comparison to the first amp. Very noticeable between the two Marks I mentioned previously.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Maybe I’m talking about a different thing altogether….what I mean is, plugging into and playing an amp, same guitar/pedals etc then plugging into another immediately (using the same exact guitar pedals cab) and noting how much faster the response is, in comparison to the first amp. Very noticeable between the two Marks I mentioned previously.

I think yeah we might be talking about two different things. On any Mark, the time between hitting the note on the guitar and the speaker starting to move is the same.

One Mark might sound clearer, louder, more articulate, and maybe the other might even have a kind of bloom at sufficient volume for the note to sink down in volume before swelling back to the level it should be while the other stays tight and solid the whole time, but while the tighter Mark might seem "faster," both Marks will actually still have the exact same "input lag" which is zero, meaning the time delay between hitting the strings and the speaker producing the start of the note is the same.

 

[Exo-metal]

Mine is the fastest haha

 

[Strandberg Junkie]

Didn't bother reading this link cause I wouldn't understand any of it, but doesn't sag
impact current flow to a very tiny degree?

https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/p...ice/energystatus/powerquality/voltagesags.pdf

 

[GJgo]

So when I put this thread together it was after noticing a phenomenon that was a biproduct of a big reamping project I'm doing. EVERYTHING was held constant except for the heads themselves and I was reamping from my DAW with a Radial box. I'm a very meticulous person. When I heard the MkIII 60 timing was running ahead of the backing track I went and checked that all the stems were left aligned to 0, which they were, and keep in mind this was with all 7 reamped guitar tracks in the mix- so it's not like 1 got accidentally bumped. The evidence was pretty compelling when coupled with the fact that every MkII and III 60 I've played has had this super immediate attack compared to every D, H & K I've played (20-30 total amps). No, pulling 2 tubes in a H is not the same thing in the room- like Racer I've also had them both at the same time.

So today before digging my heels in, I decided the productive thing to do was to reamp form scratch with the express purpose of seeing if I could back this observation up- and unfortunately, I could not back it up today as all stems were spot on in alignment. Also unfortunately I do not have a good reason as to why, however today's test does blow the theory.. Here it is zoomed way in. Well shit!

 

[cobrahead1030]

Maybe I’m talking about a different thing altogether….what I mean is, plugging into and playing an amp, same guitar/pedals etc then plugging into another immediately (using the same exact guitar pedals cab) and noting how much faster the response is, in comparison to the first amp. Very noticeable between the two Marks I mentioned previously.

Having a faster feel when you're playing an amp live makes sense. I have a hard time buying that the timing in a song would be off with one amp vs the other.

 

[Racerxrated]

Having a faster feel when you're playing an amp live makes sense. I have a hard time buying that the timing in a song would be off with one amp vs the other.

Right...it's literally milliseconds so it wouldn't affect playing with a drummer Imo. It compares to lets say, a SS modeler which for me have always tracked a little 'quicker' than most tube amps...kinda makes you feel faster or more 'accurate' with your technique maybe. The AX8 I had was like that. But it is a noticeable difference when I compared the 2C S (non eq) to the HRG ++.

 

[JackBootedThug]

It’s that crystal lettuce bro. That shit is a day old and wilted a little. eddy always gave it a week to get good and brown before recording. I read that shit on the interwebz so you know it’s gotta be true….