We're not upset about the shape. We're upset because neither side seems to want to understand the point of view of the other
Otherwise, this thread wouldn't be nearing 100 pages
First let me say I’m speaking only for myself, no one else. Second I’m presenting this in good faith and a serious fashion. Anything here is not intended to be argumentative or insulting, just my observations and opinions on the matter. If anyone takes it personally, that’s their issue.
I have no problem wanting to understand another point of view. In fact, when presented with alternate views I generally look more into it for several reasons. 1. I’m genuinely interested, 2. I can have a frame of reference when discussing, 3. I can learn about what’s being presented and form my own thoughts, 4 I can have an understanding of the subject for agreeing with or refuting any arguments. This goes for all subject matter, whether it be space/earth, religion, politics, science & nature, guitars & gear, etc. If I don’t know enough about the subject I either outright state it, make a goofy joke that implies it, or keep quiet & observe.
When having an actual discussion with someone on a subject where we disagree; presenting my side I generally stick to the facts as best I can and present present evidence to support them. If refuting I’ll state what part I’m refuting, present the contradicting evidence, attempt to explain any misunderstanding of my or the other side’s evidence, etc. In other words not just dismiss a counter argument as “you’re wrong.” My downfall here is I know I can use; we’ll call it common language, that probably comes off as argumentative or insulting at times. Probably the redneck in me. I do my best to keep it out of serious discussions, but it still likes to pop up.
That being said, I admit I go into “fuck it” mode and move to insults. I do that when I perceive the other party is disingenuous, fake, or acting in bad faith. So the other viewpoint doesn’t upset me, nor does the disingenuous nature they present. The other party pushes the conversation to hit the point of no longer being an actual rational discussion and no longer worth the effort to take seriously. In turn I can no longer take the person seriously or even at their word because they presented themselves as a bad faith actor.
This is where Von & Brain come into the picture. I’m using them as an example because it’s the most recent, but there have been others that have come & gone that have been the same way. The late Donnie is a good example. Charvel Dan, Daniel Gleesack (on some subjects), Thumbpicker, are a few more.
I’ve tried to have normal discussions with both on subjects where we disagree. Not just the flat/globe earth, space is fake or Trump wants to invade the world. In each case they end up presenting their side, and themselves in bad faith.
Von for instance, is entirely dismissive of any viewpoint other than his own. Here’s the evidence… It’s fake, this is the explanation… The experts are lying, did you even look at the evidence?… I don’t need/want to. What’s the evidence for your argument?… Trust me bro. By his own admission he doesn’t even want to hear another argument contrary to his own opinion or even learn more about his own viewpoint. I’ve never come across someone so proud of their ignorance and refusal to learn. I don’t mean that in a formal education way; I mean it in a refusal to step outside their bubble way. In that light it’s extremely hard to respect a person’s point of view.
Brain from what I’ve witnessed & experienced comes off completely disingenuous with his arguments. He always takes the most contrarian viewpoint well beyond playing devil’s advocate. It’s like he’s being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It’s at the level of being a bad faith actor by manipulating the conversation into circular arguments like he’s trying to provoke an emotional reaction. This is evident in his refusal to acknowledge the other point of view or other interpretations.
Then the hypocrisy kicks in with both. They’re dismissive, disingenuous, and act in bad faith with anything outside of their small viewpoint. Then they lecture others on not being accepting of or receptive to other points of view under the guise of it threatens a perceived world view. I’m trying to stay civil here, but with this I have to say give me a freaking break. This whole shtick comes off the same as a liberal’s “Orange Man Bad.”
To top it off they zero in on something they perceive to irritate someone and dig in. Von’s doing it to me with the space/flat earth thing. Brain’s attempting it with the Trump-Greenland thing. I’ve witnessed them do the same to others. I’ll admit sometimes the other party starts it with them. Most of what I witnessed is them interjecting themselves into an ongoing conversation and antagonizing someone.
What it comes down to is why should they be given the same courtesy that they refuse to extend to others? If they’re going to present themselves in this manner why should anyone take them seriously and attempt to engage in conversation. If you’re not going to extend respect no one’s going to give it to you either.
In writing all of this I’m hoping Von & Brain may reflect on how they’ve been presenting themselves here. Maybe it’ll inspire others to self-reflect in general or open up a conversation beyond the general back & forth that happens in OTC.
I know I’m dumping on Von and Brain here, but I’m not 100% meaning to single them out. They are just the ones who are involved here and partially sparked me writing this. I’m not trying to lecture, berate, argue with them or anything like that; as I said just hoping it may lead to some reflection. I realize this is all kinds of long winded as well. Hopefully it’s not coming off at me pitching a fit or whining about anything. Nothing Von and Brain have said or done bothers me. I also realize this doesn’t directly address anything with the original topic. The overall purpose was
@311boogieman comment of not understanding the other side started some deeper though and inner conversation to where I wanted to respond and address certain things.
While writing all this out I’ve also done my own self-reflection. I know I went into my fuck-it mode with them and did my own antagonizing. I’ll back off from that on my end and let things sit as is. I’m also willing to reengage in conversation as long as everyone is acting in good faith.
Anyway, if you actually read though all of this I appreciate it. Hopefully I didn’t waste your time and you got something out of it.
Tagging
@VonBonfire &
@Bad Brain so it doesn't come off like I'm talking behind their backs.
