A sober assessment from Douglas Macgregor

[scottosan]

FWIW:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/strong-military

https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php

I suspect they’re close either way.

These rankings so one dimensional, as the look at the military personnel and assets only. They don’t take into consideration which countries have forward operating bases, geographical advantages, intelligence and satellites surveillance, allies, etc.

For example, Russian missiles are extremely accurate, but their satellite and human surveillance is pure shite. An accurate missle doesn’t buy you much if you don’t know where it’s most effectively placed. It doesn’t take into consideration the moral of a volunteer force vs forced conscription. Additionally the US spends 10x on defense than Russia. They are taking a literal ass beating from a much smaller force.

 

[Bad Brain]

These rankings so one dimensional, as the look at the military personnel and assets only

It’s probably still a valuable metric. That other stuff can be so subjective…Is China allied with Russia?

 

[Racerxrated]

These rankings so one dimensional, as the look at the military personnel and assets only. They don’t take into consideration which countries have forward operating bases, geographical advantages, intelligence and satellites surveillance, allies, etc.

For example, Russian missiles are extremely accurate, but their satellite and human surveillance is pure shite. An accurate missle doesn’t buy you much if you don’t know where it’s most effectively placed. It doesn’t take into consideration the moral of a volunteer force vs forced conscription. Additionally the US spends 10x on defense than Russia. They are taking a literal ass beating from a much smaller force.

Exactly.

Anyone who actually thinks Russia is #2, or even in the top 5 has only to review what happened in Feb of 2022. The "Vaunted Russian Military" was supposed to take Kiev in 2 weeks. They didn't take anything. Except an ass beating by a much smaller military force. And, no, we hadn't armed them at that time..it was T72s and AKs fighting the invaders.

Russian's don't 'Maneuver' when they fight..making them very predictable.....they also take over a year to realize that maybe, just maybe it might be important to place your logistics hubs in places that Ukraine cannot reach

Keep in mind also, that Ukraine has no air force, unless you count the MiGs that get shot down immediately. Without any air support to speak of, the fact remains that Ukraine has done a pretty great job at pushing back Russia somewhat..although without more help it may stay at a stalemate for the forseeable future.

 

[scottosan]

It’s probably still a valuable metric. That other stuff can be so subjective…Is China allied with Russia?

Not a valuable metric at all unless you want to manipulate opinion or if you’re trying to get funding from Congress, otherwise these are worthless metrics. From a reality or strategic standpoint we’re seeing that the #1 rated military from a MSM media opinion article struggling to oppose a much smaller bordering country.

 

[FokenBusker]

Exactly.

Anyone who actually thinks Russia is #2, or even in the top 5 has only to review what happened in Feb of 2022. The "Vaunted Russian Military" was supposed to take Kiev in 2 weeks. They didn't take anything. Except an ass beating by a much smaller military force. And, no, we hadn't armed them at that time..it was T72s and AKs fighting the invaders.

Russian's don't 'Maneuver' when they fight..making them very predictable.....they also take over a year to realize that maybe, just maybe it might be important to place your logistics hubs in places that Ukraine cannot reach

Keep in mind also, that Ukraine has no air force, unless you count the MiGs that get shot down immediately. Without any air support to speak of, the fact remains that Ukraine has done a pretty great job at pushing back Russia somewhat..although without more help it may stay at a stalemate for the forseeable future.

i'd wager putin's far too meddlesome with the micromanaging of his military. an autocratic shithead like him trying to run every detail of a massive military operation rather than trust in the competency of his officers to handle their own affairs, however, they're also known for having a far weaker chain of command than the US military does, and that sorta makes sense seeing how it's a known thing that sometimes russia will execute their own soldiers simply for witnessing something they shouldn't have.

maybe he'd have better luck if he didn't have a shit army but it sure makes him look like an 80's cartoon villain, buffoonery and all

 

[Bad Brain]

Not a valuable metric at all unless you want to manipulate opinion or if you’re trying to get funding from Congress, otherwise these are worthless metrics. From a reality or strategic standpoint we’re seeing that the #1 rated military from a MSM media opinion article struggling to oppose a much smaller bordering country.

If you don’t think it’s important how many and how good a countries nukes, tanks, planes and infantry are, dunno what to say. I think it’s relevant and significant. You make a good point otherwise, with the caveat that those metrics are subjective.

No one ever claimed Ukraine wasn’t a force to be reckoned with. They’ve been preparing for years and the US has dumped billions into supporting them. Supposedly more than Russia’s annual military budget. Call it a stalemate, but they’ve lost. There are no more fighting age men. Russia has largely achieved its objectives, unless you were thinking all along that they planned on invading Europe and taking over all of Ukraine.

 

[Racerxrated]

i'd wager putin's far too meddlesome with the micromanaging of his military. an autocratic shithead like him trying to run every detail of a massive military operation rather than trust in the competency of his officers to handle their own affairs, however, they're also known for having a far weaker chain of command than the US military does, and that sorta makes sense seeing how it's a known thing that sometimes they'll execute their own soldiers simply for witnessing something they shouldn't have.

maybe he'd have better luck if he didn't have a shit army but it sure makes him look like an 80's cartoon villain, buffoonery and all

This is exactly it...the Generals that have been honest with Putin have all lost their jobs. Honesty will only get you demoted. They have to lie in order to keep in favor; and hope for their sake that the lie turns into truth.

 

[Racerxrated]

If you don’t think it’s important how many and how good a countries nukes, tanks, planes and infantry are, dunno what to say. I think it’s relevant and significant. You make a good point otherwise, with the caveat that those metrics are subjective.

No one ever claimed Ukraine wasn’t a force to be reckoned with. They’ve been preparing for years and the US has dumped billions into supporting them. Supposedly more than Russia’s annual military budget. Call it a stalemate, but they’ve lost. There are no more fighting age men. Russia has largely achieved its objectives, unless you were thinking all along that they planned on invading Europe and taking over all of Ukraine.

If 'how good Russia's nukes, tanks, planes etc are' is really a metric, then Russia is a mighty fail when it comes to tanks. They're using the mighty T55 now; from the 1950s. Since they have lost a good majority of their T72s.
If we really had dumped Billions into their defense industry before the war, then why were we not seeing western weapons in the beginning? Because there weren't any. Not until months later.

 

[scottosan]

If you don’t think it’s important how many and how good a countries nukes, tanks, planes and infantry are, dunno what to say. I think it’s relevant and significant. You make a good point otherwise, with the caveat that those metrics are subjective.

No one ever claimed Ukraine wasn’t a force to be reckoned with. They’ve been preparing for years and the US has dumped billions into supporting them. Supposedly more than Russia’s annual military budget. Call it a stalemate, but they’ve lost. There are no more fighting age men. Russia has largely achieved its objectives, unless you were thinking all along that they planned on invading Europe and taking over all of Ukraine.

What I’m saying is that what you are reading is opinion, not reality. Do you honestly think intelligence and strategic assessments are going to be published?

There are too many variables outside of the number of equipment and personnel numbers. The continental US has a tremendous geographic advantage that has prevented us from military attacks since modern warfare has existed.


We have forward operating bases or presence in Asia, Europe, Africa, Australia, South America, Caribbean and Pacific Islands.

Outside of countries formerly part of the Soviet Union, Syria is their only presence.

Regarding air superiority, Russians have (7) stealth single purpose capable SU57s that are only frontal stealth, whereas we’ve built 800 fully stealth multipurpose F35s and 185 F22 Raptors

 

[FokenBusker]

What I’m saying is that what you are reading is opinion, not reality. Do you honestly think intelligence and strategic assessments are going to be published?

There are too many variables outside of the number of equipment and personnel numbers. The continental US has a tremendous geographic advantage that has prevented us from military attacks since modern warfare has existed.


We have forward operating bases or presence in Asia, Europe, Africa, Australia, South America, Caribbean and Pacific Islands.

Outside of countries formerly part of the Soviet Union, Syria is their only presence.

Regarding air superiority, Russians have (7) stealth single purpose capable SU57s that are only frontal stealth, whereas we’ve built 800 fully stealth multipurpose F35s and 185 F22 Raptors

The US also has air force bases along the northern border of Canada. And having Alaska there sure don't hurt, either. Anchorage is a stronghold.

They, along with their allies, comprise the single greatest military collective in all human history.

Also, the US got those robo dogs that can do all sorts of insane shit now. Anyone goes full belligerent on the US at this point, they'll be jealous of Al Quaeda. US Military tech has gone halfway to fuckin Terminator since then.

 

[scottosan]

Aircraft carriers:
US - 11
Russia - 2

Total War Ships:
US - 470
Russia - 290

 

[JohnnyGtar]

Aircraft carriers:
US - 11
Russia - 2

Total War Ships:
US - 470
Russia - 290

Yep.

"Facts are stubborn things."

- John Adams

Reminds me of what they called the "Mass briefing" (I think that's what they called it. I'm old and I sometimes get fog brained) when I was in tech school in the Air Force. The first half of the day we were shown movies of what weaponry the Soviet Union had. It was impressive, so we were feeling pretty dour.

Then they sent us to lunch.

When we returned to the briefing, they showed us the weaponry the United States had. At the end of the day, we were standing straight and tall.

 

[Bad Brain]

There are too many variables outside of the number of equipment and personnel numbers. The continental US has a tremendous geographic advantage that has prevented us from military attacks since modern warfare has existed.


We have forward operating bases or presence in Asia, Europe, Africa, Australia, South America, Caribbean and Pacific Islands.

I agree with you about this, and 100% about US geographic advantage, which we regrettably haven’t used to stay away from trouble, but to get into it.

The bases can be a liability as well. Watch the Middle East. Either way, in arguing the point, it’s demonstrating that it’s subjective, unlike the number of, or general capabilities of, a submarine.

 

[Laputan Machine]

If 'how good Russia's nukes, tanks, planes etc are' is really a metric, then Russia is a mighty fail when it comes to tanks. They're using the mighty T55 now; from the 1950s. Since they have lost a good majority of their T72s.
If we really had dumped Billions into their defense industry before the war, then why were we not seeing western weapons in the beginning? Because there weren't any. Not until months later.

Ukraine had a very large amount of US supplied weapons at the start and the US has been training them for the past 8 years. Ukraine had already converted many of their artillery pieces to NATO standard 155mm before the war began and the US was directly involved with the war from the start through providing intelligence and active participation. Ukrainian officers were being told what to do by US command from the start, and the major blunting action of the Russian advance was done with GPS guided artillery that was being guided by US controllers outside of Ukraine.

IE -> US flown drone spots and tags Russian materiel, Ukrainian artillery fires US made GPS rounds, US operators outside of Ukraine then do the procedure to guide the rounds onto the Russian targets. There are many videos of instances like 5 artillery rounds being fired on 5 AFVs and all 5 of them scoring direct hits.
Mix in US supplied anti-tank missiles like Javelins and many MANPADs being used against trash Russian helos and aircraft from the start and that is why the Russians have lost so much equipment and men.

One of the big capabilities of the US military is the ability to integrate very quickly into other nations militaries and basically take over the drivers seat. No other country can do that. The F16s Ukraine is getting will be 'drone-lite' where they will be flying in but the weapon drops will be done by US controllers outside of Ukraine.

 

[84superchamp]

i'd wager putin's far too meddlesome with the micromanaging of his military. an autocratic shithead like him trying to run every detail of a massive military operation rather than trust in the competency of his officers to handle their own affairs, however, they're also known for having a far weaker chain of command than the US military does, and that sorta makes sense seeing how it's a known thing that sometimes russia will execute their own soldiers simply for witnessing something they shouldn't have.

maybe he'd have better luck if he didn't have a shit army but it sure makes him look like an 80's cartoon villain, buffoonery and all

And of course having one of his top generals leave the conflict and head for Moscow for a military coup didn’t help Putin’s status as a leader.
US and Russian military leadership is as different as it can get but doesn’t determine who comes out on top in any given situation.

 

[Racerxrated]

Yep.

"Facts are stubborn things."

- John Adams

Reminds me of what they called the "Mass briefing" (I think that's what they called it. I'm old and I sometimes get fog brained) when I was in tech school in the Air Force. The first half of the day we were shown movies of what weaponry the Soviet Union had. It was impressive, so we were feeling pretty dour.

Then they sent us to lunch.

When we returned to the briefing, they showed us the weaponry the United States had. At the end of the day, we were standing straight and tall.

And this is why Putin wants or yearns for the days of the USSR….back when the Warsaw pact had 3 million plus in their military. Russia has a much smaller population to conscript from.
He said as much in 1999, when he first blackmailed Yeltsin out of the presidency..
“The greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the fall of the USSR.”

 

[JohnnyGtar]

And this is why Putin wants or yearns for the days of the USSR….back when the Warsaw pact had 3 million plus in their military. Russia has a much smaller population to conscript from.
He said as much in 1999, when he first blackmailed Yeltsin out of the presidency..
“The greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the fall of the USSR.”

Yep.

 

[Bad Brain]

“The greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the fall of the USSR.”

I’ve heard that, but is this the only evidence for the idea that putin wants to recreate the Soviet empire?

 

[FokenBusker]

I'd swear Putin wanted pre-Soviet Czardom. Fucker lives in a castle

 

[Racerxrated]

I’ve heard that, but is this the only evidence for the idea that putin wants to recreate the Soviet empire?

Word is, over the years certain people 'around but not in' his inner circle have reported this. But, it's pretty easy to see how he's 'set up' certain situations to 'require' Russian military involvement...ie the bombings in Georgia, that Russia blamed terrorists for, when no proof was ever found; to the fake Ukranian 'Nazi's' (yes; they have a racist Battalion. Who cares lol) when their president is Jewish, and lost family to the Holocaust. These are things Putin does to 'justify' his invasions...when a neighboring country doesn't have a 'Russia influenced government' he decides to act with his military.