ASCAP B.S.

[Anonymous]

The band that is redoing NO QUarter by zep should be all shot directly in each one of their assholes with a 12 gauge. Skyhigh just take the videos down and carry on.

 

[Anonymous]

It is the equivlant of workman`s comp it gets your foot in the door.
as far as a tribute band i can see the intervention. The so called tribute band is running around making money on said name band and songs. It is not like they are playing a top 40 variety. They are presenting themselves as so called band. Oh well

I get Ed's point. And I understand to a degree. But honestly, unless you can quantify which songs are being played the most and distribute the $ accordingly it just is stupid. I guess because I haven't written a song that is worthy of being "covered" I can't say it wouldn't bug me 100% that someone is in a cover band playing it and I'm not getting $. Sort of like having no kids and telling a parent what to do I guess. But I can say with 99.99% certainty that I don't think I would care one bit.

Most cover bands don't really make money. Start taking out gas, equipment cost, etc. But I know there is no compromise between the 2 sides. It will eventually kill live music clubs. It's hard enough to find gigs, many clubs around here closing - lets just drive in another nail.


The reason I ever wanted to play was seeing a group at my jr high play Hot Legs and Walk this Way at an assembly. I assume they didn't do it for free. I had never heard either song. I went out and bought Toys in the Attic. Hate to think I never would have had that experience because of "the cost of doing business" driving the band out of business or the school not being able to afford it. Just saying...

I dunno...I played plenty of money loser shows wit original stuff bu pretty much always made money with cover stuff. heck my Country gig for all intents and purposes is a cover gig and I started with them doing like 200 a gig, now it averages out in the 400 range.
Last year we sold a 3 song EP from June to September, we spent like 500 bucks in licensing, and sold like 8000 bucks worth of CD...unfortunately the money we spent on it that meant we only broke even.
This year for the Summer Shows we spent 900 bucks in licensing on the new stuff and made a profit of like 3 or 4 k. S, just like every one else I'd rather keep that licensing money...but it sure as heck made me money.

 

[Variable]

Here's one for ASCAP: So if I cover All Along the Watchtower, Hendrix style, who gets paid? Bobby D or the Hendrix estate? Did JH pay BD royalties when he covered that song? Did Zeppelin pay any of the bands they covered (and from whom they profited greatly)?

What if your cover song is horrible? Or you throw in a lengthy solo that wasn't in the original? Or you rewrite certain parts? Don't use exactly the same lyrics? Better yet, what evidence is ASCAP going to use against you? Witness testimony? Videotape? If they videotape you and play it in court, can you sue them for unauthorized reproduction in front of a public audience?

How about the uncountable number of blues songs that are basically the same progression? Did the person who wrote that progression get any money? Does anyone even know who it is? At what point does it become creative commons? Should I have to pay the person who wrote Happy Birthday every time I sing it at a birthday party?

Should I pay Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin royalties when their work inspires me? After all, if it weren't for them I wouldn't write a lot of the things I do, the way I do.

Just some questions to ponder

 

[scottosan]

It's bad enough that people don't want to go to bars in the first place, then you get ASCAP running off the bands that would make a place entertaining enough to draw a decent crowd.

But hey, put in this jukebox and don't hire bands, and it's all good.

Personally, if I wanted to hear copy righted music, I would rather listen to a DJ. I don't watch cover bands.

 

[scottosan]

Lemme get this straight. You actually believe that your tribute band has some sort of significant effect on Bon Jovi CD sales? That's kinda funny...

Steve

The point was that tribute bands DO help sell cds if they're good...however minimal it may be. Same can be said for good cover bands as well.

What is the difference between a coverband and a tribute band? I have always wondered.

 

[SkyhighRocks]

The band that is redoing NO QUarter by zep should be all shot directly in each one of their assholes with a 12 gauge. Skyhigh just take the videos down and carry on.

Yeah I'll get right on that.

 

[Greazygeo]

Here's one for ASCAP: So if I cover All Along the Watchtower, Hendrix style, who gets paid? Bobby D or the Hendrix estate? Did JH pay BD royalties when he covered that song? Did Zeppelin pay any of the bands they covered (and from whom they profited greatly)?

What if your cover song is horrible? Or you throw in a lengthy solo that wasn't in the original? Or you rewrite certain parts? Don't use exactly the same lyrics? Better yet, what evidence is ASCAP going to use against you? Witness testimony? Videotape? If they videotape you and play it in court, can you sue them for unauthorized reproduction in front of a public audience?

How about the uncountable number of blues songs that are basically the same progression? Did the person who wrote that progression get any money? Does anyone even know who it is? At what point does it become creative commons? Should I have to pay the person who wrote Happy Birthday every time I sing it at a birthday party?

Should I pay Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin royalties when their work inspires me? After all, if it weren't for them I wouldn't write a lot of the things I do, the way I do.

Just some questions to ponder

And these are already covered if you look into it alittle.

 

[blackba]

What is the difference between a coverband and a tribute band? I have always wondered.

A tribute band plays just 1 band's music and generally dresses or trys to look like the band they are tributing. A cover band plays many different band's music and general doesn't copy one band's look on stage.

I understand you not liking cover bands, but in my area if you want to play out, you have to be a cover band, people don't want to hear original music. Its very hard to get a gig anyway.

As for the ASCAP, I think if they can enforce equally businesses having prerecorded music as well as live bands, that would be fine. As long as they are consistent and there is no additional cost for having live bands. IE its the same cost and enforcement for a DJ as a band.

 

[lordriffenstein]

You think that is bad?? Similar organisation in Belgium is going A LOT further than that. Couple of weeks ago they issued a statement that they are going to start collecting fees from companies if the workforce is playing music. So if I play a cd on my computer at work, and my co-workers can hear it, then my company has to pay a royalty fee. Unless you have a family business or there are less than 6 people working, the company has to pay.

 

[degenaro]

Here's one for ASCAP: So if I cover All Along the Watchtower, Hendrix style, who gets paid? Bobby D or the Hendrix estate? Did JH pay BD royalties when he covered that song? Did Zeppelin pay any of the bands they covered (and from whom they profited greatly)?

What if your cover song is horrible? Or you throw in a lengthy solo that wasn't in the original? Or you rewrite certain parts? Don't use exactly the same lyrics? Better yet, what evidence is ASCAP going to use against you? Witness testimony? Videotape? If they videotape you and play it in court, can you sue them for unauthorized reproduction in front of a public audience?

How about the uncountable number of blues songs that are basically the same progression? Did the person who wrote that progression get any money? Does anyone even know who it is? At what point does it become creative commons? Should I have to pay the person who wrote Happy Birthday every time I sing it at a birthday party?

Should I pay Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin royalties when their work inspires me? After all, if it weren't for them I wouldn't write a lot of the things I do, the way I do.

Just some questions to ponder

Dylan gets paid, he's the writer. The performing rights orgs are there to collect performance royalties for their members which are writers and publishers. i.e. the guys that cam up with it, and the guys that own the copyright. Hendrix or more specifically his record company most certainly paid.
Zeppelin did, even though in the case of Willie Dixon it took a law suit because they did not credit him and tried to rip him.
There are cue sheets, and other stuff that is supposed to be submitted for the use of others property. What if yo change it? same difference, otherwise why do you think some one like Puff Daddy had to pay for the sonic rape he did to Kashmir.

It's not about any chord progression, that is not copyrightable. What is in the copyright is the melody and lyric.
As for performing something, as an artist you don't pay fo it the venue/promoter pays.

Inspiration has nothing to do with a business using some on else's property...it needs to be licensed, plain and simple. Just like if yo record a CD and cover a tune yo need to pay....

There really is nothing to ponder, you make some wrong assumptions and go from there.
If you really give a shit...read up on it.
http://www.ascap.com/licensing/brochures.html

The idea that an organization trying to enforce the law in the interest of its members (writers/composers/publishers) is somehow the bad guy really escapes me.

 

[degenaro]

It is the equivlant of workman`s comp it gets your foot in the door.
as far as a tribute band i can see the intervention. The so called tribute band is running around making money on said name band and songs. It is not like they are playing a top 40 variety. They are presenting themselves as so called band. Oh well

I'd hazard a guess that the writers of songs covered by Top 40 bands would like to get the same consideration as the writers that wrote for whatever that tribute band covers...

 

[timbo]

It's not about any chord progression, that is not copyrightable. What is in the copyright is the melody and lyric.

Vanilla Ice comes to mind. He was so metal.

 

[Shark Diver]

The idea that an organization trying to enforce the law in the interest of its members (writers/composers/publishers) is somehow the bad guy really escapes me.

I think what is hard for some of us is that we grew up in a time where it wasn't being enforced. If you walk into a restaurant and hear the radio playing it's illegal. But that restaurant isn't making $ from playing that station. Even if the owner buys the CD he isn't suppose to let others hear it?! When's the last time you went to McDonald's because of the great tnes they were playing? It's ridiculous. I could sit in my car and hear the same thing for free. I can buy a song off Itunes, but am told I can't burn it to play a CD in my car?! Or I'm told exactly how many Ipods and computers I can use it on. Ridiculous! Bands have been playing covers forever without anyone caring. Now all of a sudden they want to enforce laws that haven't been enforced, for decades? Sure at big venues maybe they did, but not at small places. If you right a song, publish it, people hear it, don't be surprised if they play it. Just stupid to think that you have rights of every way and time it is used. As an artist you are putting something in the public domain. The public might actually like it, and play it. What a surprise!

Crap like this will kill music. It will become so full of bureaucracy that people will find other outlets. It will price itself out. I do understand that licensing should be an acceptable form of getting payment for commercial use. But there should also be some minimum on what is made before licensing kicks in. Really hard to watch an episode of cribs and be at a bar playing 50 songs a night for $100 and worry about P Diddy getting his slice of the pie from me.

It really only hurts music in general if guys like me quit playing, and venues close. And eventually it will hurt the artist/songwriters. No songwriter is making less because some cover band somewhere around the world is playing their song. In fact, as said before, it promotes their song. And when venues quit playing music we'll see how much they make when no one cares.

 

[degenaro]

The idea that an organization trying to enforce the law in the interest of its members (writers/composers/publishers) is somehow the bad guy really escapes me.

I think what is hard for some of us is that we grew up in a time where it wasn't being enforced. If you walk into a restaurant and hear the radio playing it's illegal. But that restaurant isn't making $ from playing that station. Even if the owner buys the CD he isn't suppose to let others hear it?! When's the last time you went to McDonald's because of the great tnes they were playing? It's ridiculous. I could sit in my car and hear the same thing for free. I can buy a song off Itunes, but am told I can't burn it to play a CD in my car?! Or I'm told exactly how many Ipods and computers I can use it on. Ridiculous! Bands have been playing covers forever without anyone caring. Now all of a sudden they want to enforce laws that haven't been enforced, for decades? Sure at big venues maybe they did, but not at small places. If you right a song, publish it, people hear it, don't be surprised if they play it. Just stupid to think that you have rights of every way and time it is used. As an artist you are putting something in the public domain. The public might actually like it, and play it. What a surprise!

Crap like this will kill music. It will become so full of bureaucracy that people will find other outlets. It will price itself out. I do understand that licensing should be an acceptable form of getting payment for commercial use. But there should also be some minimum on what is made before licensing kicks in. Really hard to watch an episode of cribs and be at a bar playing 50 songs a night for $100 and worry about P Diddy getting his slice of the pie from me.

It really only hurts music in general if guys like me quit playing, and venues close. And eventually it will hurt the artist/songwriters. No songwriter is making less because some cover band somewhere around the world is playing their song. In fact, as said before, it promotes their song. And when venues quit playing music we'll see how much they make when no one cares.

Here's the deal...you don' go to McDonalds and swoon over the fact that they have electricity, but they still have to pay for it.
When you sit in your car and listen to the radio, the radio very much pays to broadcast material. Establishments have had to license the use of copyrighted material as long as I remember, the band doesn't have to care they don't pay. Now if you run a business, and use a website that uses some one else IP, then you have to pay the same as the the bar that plays the radio and plays some one else's work. Has little to do with bands.

Now you throw silly numbers around...the average cost of a bar is 2 bucks a night if they have cover bands.

If I had had a nickle for every venue threatening to quit live music because of royalties and don't...

As for promoting songs...come on, we play those tunes because it gets people in the door drinking, so the bar can make money, the band can make money...lets not pretend we all doing this to promote some writers pocket...we do it for our income...

 

[Shark Diver]

No fight with you Ed, but most of the cover bands I know don't even break even. So, yes they get a pay check, but they are in reality playing for free. If you don't agree that's cool. But live music clubs promote music. If they weren't there then in My opinion it would eventually hurt music. Again, I don't know of one songwriter that is losing any $ because some cover band is playing one of their songs. Whether you think it promotes it or not, it certainly isn't hurting the artist. If I covered one of your tunes right now it would only help get your name out there. I venture to guess that most of my audience hasn't heard your tunes. And that isn't a shot at you. Popularity has nothing to do with quality. I have already said I respect you and your music. If I played your CD in my restaurant it would promote your music.

If you don't agree, cool. I'm just a little guy that will get expensed out of playing. And if I'm one of many then the entire music industry, including gear manufactures will suffer. I venture there are more amps sold to "weekend warriors" then "artist". I don't see the sense in a songwriter sweating some shmo who works 40+ hours a week going out and playing on the weekend 'til 2:00 in the morning simply because he loves the songwriter's music. The shmo isn't doing it to make $. He's doing it because he loves to play.

 

[degenaro]

No fight with you Ed, but most of the cover bands I know don't even break even. So, yes they get a pay check, but they are in reality playing for free. If you don't agree that's cool. But live music clubs promote music. If they weren't there then in My opinion it would eventually hurt music. Again, I don't know of one songwriter that is losing any $ because some cover band is playing one of their songs. Whether you think it promotes it or not, it certainly isn't hurting the artist. If I covered one of your tunes right now it would only help get your name out there. I venture to guess that most of my audience hasn't heard your tunes. And that isn't a shot at you. Popularity has nothing to do with quality. I have already said I respect you and your music. If I played your CD in my restaurant it would promote your music.

If you don't agree, cool. I'm just a little guy that will get expensed out of playing. And if I'm one of many then the entire music industry, including gear manufactures will suffer. I venture there are more amps sold to "weekend warriors" then "artist". I don't see the sense in a songwriter sweating some shmo who works 40+ hours a week going out and playing on the weekend 'til 2:00 in the morning simply because he loves the songwriter's music. The shmo isn't doing it to make $. He's doing it because he loves to play.

No fight here...just a discussion.

There are mosdef more amps sold to weekend warriors.
But here is what I don't get, why would any one ever play in a cover band and merely break even? I mean where is the reason for it? The only reason I can find to play live juke box is that it pays.

 

[Code001]

But here is what I don't get, why would any one ever play in a cover band and merely break even? I mean where is the reason for it? The only reason I can find to play live juke box is that it pays.

Yeah, why would anybody ever want to play music in front of people and not get money? I mean, it could never be because they're actually having fun or enjoying themselves. Oh, no. That couldn't be it.

 

[degenaro]

But here is what I don't get, why would any one ever play in a cover band and merely break even? I mean where is the reason for it? The only reason I can find to play live juke box is that it pays.

Yeah, why would anybody ever want to play music in front of people and not get money? I mean, it could never be because they're actually having fun or enjoying themselves. Oh, no. That couldn't be it.

Not talking about playing music for no money but covers. So instead of being a wise guy tell me...why would you play covers for free? Seeing that you can get paid.

 

[Code001]

But here is what I don't get, why would any one ever play in a cover band and merely break even? I mean where is the reason for it? The only reason I can find to play live juke box is that it pays.

Yeah, why would anybody ever want to play music in front of people and not get money? I mean, it could never be because they're actually having fun or enjoying themselves. Oh, no. That couldn't be it.

Not talking about playing music for no money but covers. So instead of being a wise guy tell me...why would you play covers for free? Seeing that you can get paid.

Maybe because I enjoy playing guitar and don't care about the money? Most people that do this sort of thing have day jobs and only do the cover thing as a way to kick back and relax.

 

[Shark Diver]

No fight with you Ed, but most of the cover bands I know don't even break even. So, yes they get a pay check, but they are in reality playing for free. If you don't agree that's cool. But live music clubs promote music. If they weren't there then in My opinion it would eventually hurt music. Again, I don't know of one songwriter that is losing any $ because some cover band is playing one of their songs. Whether you think it promotes it or not, it certainly isn't hurting the artist. If I covered one of your tunes right now it would only help get your name out there. I venture to guess that most of my audience hasn't heard your tunes. And that isn't a shot at you. Popularity has nothing to do with quality. I have already said I respect you and your music. If I played your CD in my restaurant it would promote your music.

If you don't agree, cool. I'm just a little guy that will get expensed out of playing. And if I'm one of many then the entire music industry, including gear manufactures will suffer. I venture there are more amps sold to "weekend warriors" then "artist". I don't see the sense in a songwriter sweating some shmo who works 40+ hours a week going out and playing on the weekend 'til 2:00 in the morning simply because he loves the songwriter's music. The shmo isn't doing it to make $. He's doing it because he loves to play.

No fight here...just a discussion.

There are mosdef more amps sold to weekend warriors.
But here is what I don't get, why would any one ever play in a cover band and merely break even? I mean where is the reason for it? The only reason I can find to play live juke box is that it pays.

Simply because of love of music. If music isn't your profession original music is a hard thing to keep going and actually play out. Most guys I know actually don't even break even if you add gear into the equation. I see both sides. It's a tough deal. A songwriter has to make a living too. And shouldn't watch other people get rich off their work. Always two sides.