ASCAP B.S.

[Anonymous]

Yes they were and they settled out of court. Sonny Boy Williamson

Led Zep was never sued for the music. Jimmy changed around the stuff enough that did not happen. The thing was only lyrics. Robert was the one who did this and Jimmy was not happy at all when he found out that the lyric were not Roberts.

Just to make the record strait about what happened.

 

[Anonymous]

Also Willie Dixon.

 

[Shark Diver]

Shark/ the whole club scene died around 1986. If you can handle being a lounge lizard so be it. Hell even in Raleigh n,c there were Hard Rock clubs open tues thru sunday. DUI LAWS came in and then the internet and it has been downhill since

Also about that playing for free, lets say your day gig was something...like running an IT department...and some kid out of college would love doing IT and would offer to do your job for free...I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy?
That is what gets jobs outsourced, some one wanting to do supposedly the same work for less.
So, while I appreciate that we all want to do what we want to do, there is mos def a direct cause and effect for this.

In the end it likely won't matter since soon enough most live music will be completely replaced by DJs.

Which is a whole other issue out here. More musicians than outlets to play, so supply and demand drives the compensation down. I'm not saying the bands are playing for free. But, if they make $75 bucks each and drive an hour and a half to get there in their truck, after strings, batteries, etc. they really don't make anything. But I'm sure some guys play for free because it's the only way they can play.

And your right if that kid did my job for free and I lost mine, I wouldn't be happy. Not sure how to stop that though. Best solution really seems to me to create more desire for live music venues. Get people back in the clubs with good music and fun atmosphere. It would create a demand for bands, which would keep all of us busy. Which would bring me back to the original point that the more cost added to venues, the less there will be.

Probably why I'm still stuck in the '80s


I will say this has been a very cool thread. There are definitely two sides, and both have good points. Nice to have a friendly discussion, disagree and learn some stuff.

 

[stephen sawall]

Yes they were and they settled out of court. Sonny Boy Williamson

Led Zep was never sued for the music. Jimmy changed around the stuff enough that did not happen. The thing was only lyrics. Robert was the one who did this and Jimmy was not happy at all when he found out that the lyric were not Roberts.

Just to make the record strait about what happened.

I know they settled but it was over lyrics only.

 

[Anonymous]

Next phase. Then around 89-90 original clubs started opening like crazy, come play your originals in a 3-4 band line up and make us a killing in alcohol and you the bands get nothing. Bottom line is most bar owners are pieces of shit even till this day.

 

[degenaro]

Led Zep was never sued for the music. Jimmy changed around the stuff enough that did not happen. The thing was only lyrics. Robert was the one who did this and Jimmy was not happy at all when he found out that the lyric were not Roberts.

Just to make the record strait about what happened.

Wrong..Willie Dixon sued them, and won.

 

[Variable]

Here's one for ASCAP: So if I cover All Along the Watchtower, Hendrix style, who gets paid? Bobby D or the Hendrix estate? Did JH pay BD royalties when he covered that song? Did Zeppelin pay any of the bands they covered (and from whom they profited greatly)?

What if your cover song is horrible? Or you throw in a lengthy solo that wasn't in the original? Or you rewrite certain parts? Don't use exactly the same lyrics? Better yet, what evidence is ASCAP going to use against you? Witness testimony? Videotape? If they videotape you and play it in court, can you sue them for unauthorized reproduction in front of a public audience?

How about the uncountable number of blues songs that are basically the same progression? Did the person who wrote that progression get any money? Does anyone even know who it is? At what point does it become creative commons? Should I have to pay the person who wrote Happy Birthday every time I sing it at a birthday party?

Should I pay Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin royalties when their work inspires me? After all, if it weren't for them I wouldn't write a lot of the things I do, the way I do.

Just some questions to ponder

Dylan gets paid, he's the writer. The performing rights orgs are there to collect performance royalties for their members which are writers and publishers. i.e. the guys that cam up with it, and the guys that own the copyright. Hendrix or more specifically his record company most certainly paid.
Zeppelin did, even though in the case of Willie Dixon it took a law suit because they did not credit him and tried to rip him.
There are cue sheets, and other stuff that is supposed to be submitted for the use of others property. What if yo change it? same difference, otherwise why do you think some one like Puff Daddy had to pay for the sonic rape he did to Kashmir.

It's not about any chord progression, that is not copyrightable. What is in the copyright is the melody and lyric.
As for performing something, as an artist you don't pay fo it the venue/promoter pays.

Inspiration has nothing to do with a business using some on else's property...it needs to be licensed, plain and simple. Just like if yo record a CD and cover a tune yo need to pay....

There really is nothing to ponder, you make some wrong assumptions and go from there.
If you really give a shit...read up on it.
http://www.ascap.com/licensing/brochures.html

The idea that an organization trying to enforce the law in the interest of its members (writers/composers/publishers) is somehow the bad guy really escapes me.

I think it's that it seems a lot of cases of enforcement seem to happen to bands that would never in a million years make a profit off of the songs they cover. Everyone plays cover songs when they're getting started, so it seems like one of those "little guy VS. The Man" sort of deals. Personally, if it were my band and I made it big, I would say "Go for it!" to anyone who wanted to cover my music. I'd rather be making dough touring and having a good time than sitting on my ass and getting paid for work I did twenty years ago.

-Russ

 

[degenaro]

I don't get where the idea of bands having to pay anything at gigs and that there is enforcement comes from. Skyhighs example was a business (his Bon jovi tribute band) having bids of their performance of BJ tunes on their site. Of course you need a license for that. The other thing venues coughing up 2 bucks a night for the use of copy righted materials has zero to do with what a band pays. And if a venue gets popped after 500 gigs of not paying....it obviously adds up.

 

[scottosan]

It's not that I don't like cover bands, I like them if they are as good or better than the original, but unfortunately most aren't.

How often is the copy better than the original on anything, very rarely.

It just comes down to in my area, that you can play covers and get paid or play originals and not find any place to perform. Some of us haven't played a million gigs like Ed, so we jump at the chance to play out, regardless of how much we are getting.

There are a few instances where I have played for free. One was opening for a larger act. The big act got paid, but we didn't. I have also played at a party for a friend for free. And then there is the bennefit concert, where the money goes to some cause.

I currently play for free every week for Worship.

Most of the places I used to go to in Dallas, played originals.

 

[stephen sawall]

Led Zep was never sued for the music. Jimmy changed around the stuff enough that did not happen. The thing was only lyrics. Robert was the one who did this and Jimmy was not happy at all when he found out that the lyric were not Roberts.

Just to make the record strait about what happened.

Wrong..Willie Dixon sued them, and won.

After reading this I was looking around .... of course I was wrong.

Page .....

[A]s far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case -- but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that -- which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing.

I also found this .... if you go down the page it has parts of a few different songs on the first clip. Myself I knew nothing of the Small Faces thing till today.

http://www.turnmeondeadman.net/index.ph ... &Itemid=55

Sorry to go OT on this but I found it interesting.

 

[stratotone]

Interesting discussion, especially enjoy seeing Ed's take on this.

I don't know how it is in other areas, but here (Tulsa) it's close enough to free for a cover band by the time you've rented PA and a soundguy. Most of the gigs I've played were $400-$600. Pay a sound guy a couple hundred bucks to provide PA and monitors, and you're not making a lot of bread. Played for free or at super reduced rates (or gawdawful tuesday gigs) a few times for club owners as an 'audition' kinda thing, but it always led to getting gigs.

Any band that plays clubs for free all the time is likely worth what they are charging.

Pete

 

[Shark Diver]

Any band that plays clubs for free all the time is likely worth what they are charging.

Pete

That is the truest and funniest thing posted yet.

 

[timbo]

Don't know about you guys but when I'm rolling into a gig with 10k worth of gear (just myself) I ain't leaving without knowing that I'm going to at least walk out with a Benjamin in my pocket which depending on the average club gig is 25-30 bucks per hour. I like playing music and working in the yard because it relaxes me. But I sure ain't going around and cutting the neighbors grass for free if you get my drift.

 

[SkyhighRocks]

I think it really depends on where you're located. Some states (IE venues) pay cover bands really well while others hardly get paid. Be thankful if you do!

 

[degenaro]

I think it really depends on where you're located. Some states (IE venues) pay cover bands really well while others hardly get paid. Be thankful if you do!

I hazard a guess that is the deal. But it always depends on how the band does...going rate around here for cover stuff ends up being 75-125 a guy. I won't get off my couch for my regular gig under 250, but will do fill in gigs for half. And Summer gigs are usually 2 to 3 times that.
If we're talking booking numbers...depending on the gig we charge between 1500 and 5000.

 

[SkyhighRocks]

I hazard a guess that is the deal. But it always depends on how the band does...going rate around here for cover stuff ends up being 75-125 a guy. I won't get off my couch for my regular gig under 250, but will do fill in gigs for half. And Summer gigs are usually 2 to 3 times that.
If we're talking booking numbers...depending on the gig we charge between 1500 and 5000.

It's like that here too to a point. But I do have friends in other markets that are lucky to get $200 per band...not member. And they pack crowds in as well...just a product of their area's system.

 

[RedRider]

Well here are a few more kickers that I see in this conversation....

The OP is being told that he has to pay because he has videos on his webpage of his band playing copywrited songs (not sure how he is profiting from this)...so he pays the songwriter...then when he goes to a gig, the Venue now has to pay that same songwriter. THe OP is NOT a Venue. HE is promoting his band in order to be able to perform at a venue...the venue in turn is paying the songwriters via ASCAP or whatever.... I agree the Venue should have to pay whatever fee in order to have cover bands perfrom , however I TOTALLY disagree that I as a band should also have to pay that SAME FEE for the SAME public to hear me play...thats BS. I agree the fees are part of the cost of doing business for a bar in order to attract customers...however unless the band is selling cd's or t shirts or something else that ASCAP can show they are making money from...that is a load of crap that he has to pay. THe whole argument that he makes money from the venue is bull...the Venue is already paying the ASCAP fee in order to have that performance.

ALSO....ASCAP only pays writers of charted music I thought...could be wrong but I was reading all of this in another thread on another forum just the other day. So if I own a bar, and I only hire bands that play all songs of dead songwriters...then who am I paying ASCAP for??? To me, its just a way for the rich to get richer...in order to get paid by ASCAP you pretty much already have to be successful, otherwise you are left out in the cold.... I would love to see the ASCAP Breakdown showing exactly WHO gets paid out of the money they collect from business owners to ENSURE songwriters arent being taken advantage of...cuz I would be pretty confident that ASCAP themselves are taking a LOT more advantage of them than the small club owner that has been dodging the 100 dollar a month fee to have a band in there every friday and saturday night.

 

[degenaro]

Well here are a few more kickers that I see in this conversation....

The OP is being told that he has to pay because he has videos on his webpage of his band playing copywrited songs (not sure how he is profiting from this)...so he pays the songwriter...then when he goes to a gig, the Venue now has to pay that same songwriter. THe OP is NOT a Venue. HE is promoting his band in order to be able to perform at a venue...the venue in turn is paying the songwriters via ASCAP or whatever.... I agree the Venue should have to pay whatever fee in order to have cover bands perfrom , however I TOTALLY disagree that I as a band should also have to pay that SAME FEE for the SAME public to hear me play...thats BS. I agree the fees are part of the cost of doing business for a bar in order to attract customers...however unless the band is selling cd's or t shirts or something else that ASCAP can show they are making money from...that is a load of crap that he has to pay. THe whole argument that he makes money from the venue is bull...the Venue is already paying the ASCAP fee in order to have that performance.

ALSO....ASCAP only pays writers of charted music I thought...could be wrong but I was reading all of this in another thread on another forum just the other day. So if I own a bar, and I only hire bands that play all songs of dead songwriters...then who am I paying ASCAP for??? To me, its just a way for the rich to get richer...in order to get paid by ASCAP you pretty much already have to be successful, otherwise you are left out in the cold.... I would love to see the ASCAP Breakdown showing exactly WHO gets paid out of the money they collect from business owners to ENSURE songwriters arent being taken advantage of...cuz I would be pretty confident that ASCAP themselves are taking a LOT more advantage of them than the small club owner that has been dodging the 100 dollar a month fee to have a band in there every friday and saturday night.

So what happens when you go and record a cover tune on a CD you sell...you still gonna pay the 9 cents per tune/per CD.
As a band you don't pay for performing those tunes live. But you make them avalable as recordings, whether that's digital or CD or DVD makes no difference. You're going to pay.
As for who gets paid...well they do track play lists, for example you get radio airplay...you get paid, regardless of whether you chart or not.
I have yet to chart anything other than a song and Ive gotten BMI checks...not enough to take the wife to dinner...but nevertheless gotten them.

 

[degenaro]

Also regardless of whether we like it or not here's the deal...

Musical compositions, like other copyrighted creations such as videos, computer software, magazines and books, are the legal properties of their creators. The copyright law protects the musical works of songwriters, composers, and music publishers by granting them the exclusive right to perform their works in public. A Music Performance Agreement, in turn, gives you the right to perform these musical properties in a business setting.

 

[Gainiac]

Here's one for ASCAP: So if I cover All Along the Watchtower, Hendrix style, who gets paid? Bobby D or the Hendrix estate? Did JH pay BD royalties when he covered that song? Did Zeppelin pay any of the bands they covered (and from whom they profited greatly)?

What if your cover song is horrible? Or you throw in a lengthy solo that wasn't in the original? Or you rewrite certain parts? Don't use exactly the same lyrics? Better yet, what evidence is ASCAP going to use against you? Witness testimony? Videotape? If they videotape you and play it in court, can you sue them for unauthorized reproduction in front of a public audience?

How about the uncountable number of blues songs that are basically the same progression? Did the person who wrote that progression get any money? Does anyone even know who it is? At what point does it become creative commons? Should I have to pay the person who wrote Happy Birthday every time I sing it at a birthday party?

Should I pay Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin royalties when their work inspires me? After all, if it weren't for them I wouldn't write a lot of the things I do, the way I do.

Just some questions to ponder

Dylan gets paid, he's the writer. The performing rights orgs are there to collect performance royalties for their members which are writers and publishers. i.e. the guys that cam up with it, and the guys that own the copyright. Hendrix or more specifically his record company most certainly paid.
Zeppelin did, even though in the case of Willie Dixon it took a law suit because they did not credit him and tried to rip him.
There are cue sheets, and other stuff that is supposed to be submitted for the use of others property. What if yo change it? same difference, otherwise why do you think some one like Puff Daddy had to pay for the sonic rape he did to Kashmir.

It's not about any chord progression, that is not copyrightable. What is in the copyright is the melody and lyric.
As for performing something, as an artist you don't pay fo it the venue/promoter pays.

Inspiration has nothing to do with a business using some on else's property...it needs to be licensed, plain and simple. Just like if yo record a CD and cover a tune yo need to pay....

There really is nothing to ponder, you make some wrong assumptions and go from there.
If you really give a shit...read up on it.
http://www.ascap.com/licensing/brochures.html

The idea that an organization trying to enforce the law in the interest of its members (writers/composers/publishers) is somehow the bad guy really escapes me.

Do they really need SkyHigh's 340 a year?? ANY band barely makes ends meet nowadays... I think it's petty... I know I've got nothing at stake, but all the 340's they collect, do guys with original mateial actually SEE any of that revenue if someone takes off w/ your material? Im curious....