Big Midrange Sound Difference: Mesa Tremoverb/Peavey 6505+/Marshall

[Racerxrated]

This just in...Marshall roar buries Mesa grind. News at 11.

This.....

Even the greatest Mesa I've had, a mighty fine Rev C Recto, gets buried by any of my Marshalls. The Marshall will have an inherent upper mid heavy tone, even if you totally scoop the mids down to 0, that any Mesa just cannot compete with. My limited experience with the 5150s has their mids just slightly below a Marshall, but still far more cutting than any Mesa...which are always and every time Low mid centric.
Even boosting the Mesa with an upper mid flavor pedal, the Mesa still gets buried every time.
Mesas are killer amps but in a two guitar band, if the other guy has a Marshall or similar upper mid centric amp, fuggettaboutit. Mesa guy needs to buy a different amp IF he wants to be heard.

 

[JackBootedThug]

I don’t have a lot of experience with marshalls…I have only owned 2 or 3….but there’s not to many amps that are gonna hang with a cranked Marshall. I’m talking cranked….to 11…?

 

[stephen sawall]

These are my settings often. You could try these or use them as a starting point.

Orange

Silicon

Bold

Bypass effects loop.

Gain -11-1

Treble - 3+

Midrange - Full up

Bass - 1-2+

Presence - 1-3

+ = a little more

The "bypass effects loop" on back is important for the sound.

 

[Nigel]

This.....

Even the greatest Mesa I've had, a mighty fine Rev C Recto, gets buried by any of my Marshalls. The Marshall will have an inherent upper mid heavy tone, even if you totally scoop the mids down to 0, that any Mesa just cannot compete with. My limited experience with the 5150s has their mids just slightly below a Marshall, but still far more cutting than any Mesa...which are always and every time Low mid centric.
Even boosting the Mesa with an upper mid flavor pedal, the Mesa still gets buried every time.
Mesas are killer amps but in a two guitar band, if the other guy has a Marshall or similar upper mid centric amp, fuggettaboutit. Mesa guy needs to buy a different amp IF he wants to be heard.

Ever try EL34/KT77 etc in your Mesa?

 

[Racerxrated]

Ever try EL34/KT77 etc in your Mesa?

Oh yes. Triples, Rev C, they stayed 34 loaded. Liked it better with them. But, still not gonna cut like a Marshall. No way no how. Even boosted with OD1X, SD1, etc.

 

[skoora]

I have a Tremoverb head. Like said by others, using the amps by themselves the Tverb will just get buried by the Marshall. I would use Orange/Vintage High/bold/SS rectifier . Set the gain at about 10-11 O’Clock (if using humbckers). Use boosts if more gain needed. You can try mids and treble at 2-3 O’Clock, bass, a little lower than Noon and the Presence you turn up, right to the point of Fuck no, then a C hair back from that. A guaranteed mid range push from the amp is to dump the treble knob, crank the mids and use the Presence as your top end. Depending on guitar and speakers this can sound fine or be a little boxy But the change in midrange push is substantial.
With the previous regular settings an EQ in the loop is easily the most effective way to transform the sound. Just set loop to 100%, it will work fine. A little hump around 1K will make that amp start talkin’ in a mix.
The amp responds very well to boosts and a Treble booster in particular will also really fire up the Orange channel in the upper mids and top end. Another benefit to a TB is you get a chimier clean /edge of breakup sound with the pedal on and rolling back the guitar volume.
That T verb will totally work, quickest and easiest solution is EQ in the loop. Also bright speakers like G12H Anni Celestions and the Creamback 75.

 

[anomaly]

In my testing, how two amps pair is very enlightening & often counter- intuitive. There's really no replacement here for trying different configs & see what works in your band.

For example I did some testing of my own last week. I'm in a one guitar band, but we had another guitarist over and jammed through some things just because. Since we were just messing around I swapped the various combos of my JCM800, Triple Recto & Mark IV. Keep in mind on their own, they all kill in their own way & I would happily gig any of them.

In this test with our band's sound here's what we got.
- The Mark & Recto pairing were too similar to each other & washed out.
- The Marshall & Recto pairing kind of fought each other. The Recto got real woofy & the Marshall mids just buried it.
- The Mark & Marshall pairing was a very nice compliment- both amps could be heard clearly. Even with the stronger mids of the Marshall, the Mark still had a place to sit & the bottom end didn't wash out.

There's no right answer, it's all about what works for your sound which starts by giving up what you think you like or don't like about each amp on its own.

I used to use my Mark IV in a band where the other guy was using a DSL and I had a very similar experience. The Mark sat nicely in the mix and was heard surprisingly well even with the Marshall's bright upper midrange sound. I think it's because the gain on the IV is so refined sounding, ya know, very clear and direct gain structure. I can hear every note perfectly.

 

[anomaly]

The best luck ive had blending amps was to take my favorite amp, then take the most different amp you have and dial out ANY simularities, highlighting the main difference. Usually it’s in the midrange and lowering the gain on that amp can add tons of clarity!

Yes, it's amazing what turning down the gain can do, as well as turning down the bass. Another thing that may sound weird to you is turning off bright switches, this acts almost as a lo-pass filter and makes some amps have more definition in a live mix.

 

[JimAnsell]

if anyone wants to hear the t-verb in action on a big stage, here is a nice example from my recent you tube deep dive into 90's euro summer festival videos. they got those big straight/slant OS 4x12's too.

 

[stephen sawall]

I have a Tremoverb head. Like said by others, using the amps by themselves the Tverb will just get buried by the Marshall. I would use Orange/Vintage High/bold/SS rectifier . Set the gain at about 10-11 O’Clock (if using humbckers). Use boosts if more gain needed. You can try mids and treble at 2-3 O’Clock, bass, a little lower than Noon and the Presence you turn up, right to the point of Fuck no, then a C hair back from that. A guaranteed mid range push from the amp is to dump the treble knob, crank the mids and use the Presence as your top end. Depending on guitar and speakers this can sound fine or be a little boxy But the change in midrange push is substantial.
With the previous regular settings an EQ in the loop is easily the most effective way to transform the sound. Just set loop to 100%, it will work fine. A little hump around 1K will make that amp start talkin’ in a mix.
The amp responds very well to boosts and a Treble booster in particular will also really fire up the Orange channel in the upper mids and top end. Another benefit to a TB is you get a chimier clean /edge of breakup sound with the pedal on and rolling back the guitar volume.
That T verb will totally work, quickest and easiest solution is EQ in the loop. Also bright speakers like G12H Anni Celestions and the Creamback 75.

He is right about the GEQ.

 

[midnightlaundry]

I recorded this band in my parents Basement in like 2000 LOL.
They used a Tremoverb with an Oversized Recto Cab and a Les Paul plugged straight in.
Here it is if you're interested

 

[Charvel1975]

I do have a MXR 6-Band EQ pedal (Black case) I haven't used, wonder if that would do any good trying to run that through the effects loop of the Tremoverb?

 

[stephen sawall]

I do have a MXR 6-Band EQ pedal (Black case) I haven't used, wonder if that would do any good trying to run that through the effects loop of the Tremoverb?

Give it a try. Let us know what you find.
I use a MXR M108S with my Tremoverb sometimes.

 

[rottingcorpse]

A graphic eq in the loop can quickly solve an issue with getting buried by another amp...sometimes.

 

[Charvel1975]

So my other guitarist and I put an EQ within the Digitech RP360XP that's running through the Effects Loop of my Mesa Tremoverb on the patches I have setup and here's what we did.

Instead of reducing, we added harshness @ (2.3 kHz to 2.7 kHz) and increased pick articulation (1 kHz to 2 kHz) @2.24khz.

Just got done with band rehearsal a little while ago with the new settings and so far it's working out great and really brought more Midrange out of the Tremoverb! ?

 

[anomaly]

This.....

Even the greatest Mesa I've had, a mighty fine Rev C Recto, gets buried by any of my Marshalls. The Marshall will have an inherent upper mid heavy tone, even if you totally scoop the mids down to 0, that any Mesa just cannot compete with. My limited experience with the 5150s has their mids just slightly below a Marshall, but still far more cutting than any Mesa...which are always and every time Low mid centric.
Even boosting the Mesa with an upper mid flavor pedal, the Mesa still gets buried every time.
Mesas are killer amps but in a two guitar band, if the other guy has a Marshall or similar upper mid centric amp, fuggettaboutit. Mesa guy needs to buy a different amp IF he wants to be heard.

This hasn't been my experience at all. I've used Mark III's and IV's in bands with other players using Marshall's, mainly DSL, TSL's and I always found a pocket in the mix to be heard from. I generally just dial in the amp to sound a lot different than the other guitarists tone and it never has been a problem for me. You know that guy Myles something in Slash's band, he uses a Mark iv against Slash's marshall's and he's heard, same with Guns N Roses, Izzy used III's, and for a while one of the guitarists in Anthrax used III's as well. I chalk it up to user error or not working together to find a good balance between each players tone if you're not heard.

 

[Racerxrated]

This hasn't been my experience at all. I've used Mark III's and IV's in bands with other players using Marshall's, mainly DSL, TSL's and I always found a pocket in the mix to be heard from. I generally just dial in the amp to sound a lot different than the other guitarists tone and it never has been a problem for me. You know that guy Myles something in Slash's band, he uses a Mark iv against Slash's marshall's and he's heard, same with Guns N Roses, Izzy used III's, and for a while one of the guitarists in Anthrax used III's as well. I chalk it up to user error or not working together to find a good balance between each players tone if you're not heard.

Myles uses Diezels. Izzy used IIIs? Where? When? When I saw GNR, it was always Marshalls.

Only way a Mark can be heard with a Marshall is if the Marshall is dialed purposely dark. Every time I've seen Mesas and Marshalls in the same band context, can't hear the Mesa. At all....except for the low end thump. That goes to the Mesa.

Edit: I see that Myles does use IVs with Slash. With AB he uses his Diezel.

 

[anomaly]

Myles uses Diezels. Izzy used IIIs? Where? When? When I saw GNR, it was always Marshalls.

Only way a Mark can be heard with a Marshall is if the Marshall is dialed purposely dark. Every time I've seen Mesas and Marshalls in the same band context, can't hear the Mesa. At all....except for the low end thump. That goes to the Mesa.

Edit: I see that Myles does use IVs with Slash. With AB he uses his Diezel.

Myles uses Diezel Herbert with Alter Bridge but he uses a Mark IV with Slash. Izzy used III's for a while with the band.

I'd agree with you if were talking strictly the rectifiers but not Mark series, especially the IV. Some more bands where the players use Mesa and Marshall together is Neurosis. Steven Von Till uses a Mark IV as his main rhythm sound, sets the EQ very flat for a dark midrangey tone and is heard just as well as the other guy who used to use JCM 800's in the band, but now he uses dual rectifiers usually. Two very opposite tones that compliment each other well. Another band is Sevendust, one guitarist used a Mark IV for years while the other guy used Marshall's and the dude with the IV's dominated the mix usually. Just check out Woodstock 99 with Sevendust.

I'd agree with you if were talking strictly plexi's because they're such raw, brash amplifiers, and actually very clean compared to a Mesa's gain. Plus they put out about 160 watts in reality so a plexi can bury anything, yes.

When you pull the presence out on a Mark IV you can get a lot more cut out of the amplifier as it makes the upper midrange more present and the treble more clear sounding. It's one of those things I sometimes did when playing with another player who had a Marshall or similar type of amp. By pushing the pull bright on the lead channel it helps clear up the top end as well and makes it very articulate so it really has no problem keeping up with a JCM 800, DSL, TSL or JVM in the cut department, but the best thing to do is just dial a tone that is the complete opposite of a Marshall, more middle mid, lower mid sounding and cut through below the Marshall's upper midrange, there's a big pocket to be heard under those upper midrange frequencies of modern Marshall's cause Mark's are capable of producing much more midrange in those middle mid, lower mid frequencies than modern marshall's are.

 

[Racerxrated]

Myles uses Diezel Herbert with Alter Bridge but he uses a Mark IV with Slash. Izzy used III's for a while with the band.

I'd agree with you if were talking strictly the rectifiers but not Mark series, especially the IV. Some more bands where the players use Mesa and Marshall together is Neurosis. Steven Von Till uses a Mark IV as his main rhythm sound, sets the EQ very flat for a dark midrangey tone and is heard just as well as the other guy who used to use JCM 800's in the band, but now he uses dual rectifiers usually. Two very opposite tones that compliment each other well. Another band is Sevendust, one guitarist used a Mark IV for years while the other guy used Marshall's and the dude with the IV's dominated the mix usually. Just check out Woodstock 99 with Sevendust.

I'd agree with you if were talking strictly plexi's because they're such raw, brash amplifiers, and actually very clean compared to a Mesa's gain. Plus they put out about 160 watts in reality so a plexi can bury anything, yes.

When you pull the presence out on a Mark IV you can get a lot more cut out of the amplifier as it makes the upper midrange more present and the treble more clear sounding. It's one of those things I sometimes did when playing with another player who had a Marshall or similar type of amp. By pushing the pull bright on the lead channel it helps clear up the top end as well and makes it very articulate so it really has no problem keeping up with a JCM 800, DSL, TSL or JVM in the cut department, but the best thing to do is just dial a tone that is the complete opposite of a Marshall, more middle mid, lower mid sounding and cut through below the Marshall's upper midrange, there's a big pocket to be heard under those upper midrange frequencies of modern Marshall's cause Mark's are capable of producing much more midrange in those middle mid, lower mid frequencies than modern marshall's are.

Don't get me wrong; I love a good Mark tone..4 C+, all sounded killer and had more cut with a slight boost up front. I played a IV at a store and was very impressed; much more than the 2 Mk 3s I owned briefly.
I ran my 72 boosted with my C+ Coli, ABY pedal and was shocked at how I could only hear the low end thump, but nothing else of the Coli. I ran my C+ with ch1, pulled/dimed, treble pulled/dimed, presence dimed....and boosted with the mid heavy OD1X. Still buried.

 

[Snave]

Don't get me wrong; I love a good Mark tone..4 C+, all sounded killer and had more cut with a slight boost up front. I played a IV at a store and was very impressed; much more than the 2 Mk 3s I owned briefly.
I ran my 72 boosted with my C+ Coli, ABY pedal and was shocked at how I could only hear the low end thump, but nothing else of the Coli. I ran my C+ with ch1, pulled/dimed, treble pulled/dimed, presence dimed....and boosted with the mid heavy OD1X. Still buried.

There was a clip of Mastodon recording a song back in 2007 or so when Bill used a JMP and Brent used a Rectifier--this exact phenomenon was obvious and stuck with me ever since.