chops/technique>all the gear in the world

[Zachman]

If it REALLY didn't matter what a great player plays, or plays through, how come all the players(except Dimebag) that have been influential in any way, use good gear?

They didn't. They defined good gear.

I would say they recognized and utilized good gear, and defined for themselves what gear they preferred, and required.

 

[Rogue]

I would say they recognized and utilized good gear, and defined for themselves what gear they preferred, and required.

Possibly, but I doubt it. I'd say they had to play what they could get to play the venue. They didn't have the money and credit we do, nor the options. They played, figured out how to play to the amp, and thus defined what is good tone.

 

[Zachman]

I would say they recognized and utilized good gear, and defined for themselves what gear they preferred, and required.

Possibly, but I doubt it. I'd say they had to play what they could get to play the venue. They didn't have the money and credit we do, nor the options. They played, figured out how to play to the amp, and thus defined what is good tone.

Back in the day-- The guys in America used Fender, Sunn, and Gibson because that's what there was mostly, and it was cheaper, same as those on the other side of the pond using Vox and Marshall.

Either way, everyone uses what they use. Those restricted by budgets, likely have to compromise where those who aren't, don't. In the end, ALL gear are mere tools to accomplish a job. Clearly not all jobs are equal, nor are players.

Just because one can play doesn't mean one knows shit about engineering their gear, and vice versa, just because one has great gear doesn't mean one can play anything interesting enough to motivate one to listen.

Great gear doesn't guarantee great results, but it does provide the possibility of a specific range of results, and while good tone is subjective, there is such a thing as consensus... so those who are aspiring toward a tone goal are more likely to get closer irrespective of their playing prowess, when using better/appropriate gear, than if being restricted by lesser/inappropriate gear.

Obviously the point of it (from a musicians stand point) -- is making music-- as opposed to a collector, hobbyist, manufacturer or retailer.

Either way, arguing on a GEAR forum-- about the merits of playing vs gear seems silly to me. No gear= No playing and NO tone.

 

[Jerome Allen]

I don't want to sound like a dick..but here's my 1 problem with all these gear forums (as much as I still love them). You get some middle aged guy with way more money than chops trying to tell you what good tone/gear is or is not. I read all these stellar reviews about high priced amps/guitars from guys who don't have the skill set to even begin to touch or understand what their gear can do. It always starts off with the same bullshit "forgive my mediocre chops...let me tell you how outstanding this amp is..." If they can't fucking play, how am I to value their opinion at all? You're trying to justify/convince me that your $4000 amp is awesome by playing "Smells Like Teen Spirit?" or 1 or 2 simple pentatonic riffs? Is there an amp that doesn't sound awesome playing that song or a simple minor pentatonics? I want to hear a real guitar player put an amp through it's paces. There are some awesome players on these forums. But there is also a lot of useless bullshit by guys who wouldn't know the difference between a pinch harmonic and a pinched loaf. Seriously, who's opinion about a car would you value more : my 80 year old mother or Richard Petty? That's why I like video reviews. It takes me 5 seconds to know whether a guy can play and I if should be concerned about his opinion at all. I'm not trying to knock on gear collectors. But, there should be some kind of disclaimer like "Here's my opinion (even though I don't know shit)..."

 

[Shawn Lutz]

I don't want to sound like a dick..but here's my 1 problem with all these gear forums (as much as I still love them). You get some middle aged guy with way more money than chops trying to tell you what good tone/gear is or is not. I read all these stellar reviews about high priced amps/guitars from guys who don't have the skill set to even begin to touch or understand what their gear can do. It always starts off with the same bullshit "forgive my mediocre chops...let me tell you how outstanding this amp is..." If they can't fucking play, how am I to value their opinion at all? You're trying to justify/convince me that your $4000 amp is awesome by playing "Smells Like Teen Spirit?" or 1 or 2 simple pentatonic riffs? Is there an amp that doesn't sound awesome playing that song or a simple minor pentatonics? I want to hear a real guitar player put an amp through it's paces. There are some awesome players on these forums. But there is also a lot of useless bullshit by guys who wouldn't know the difference between a pinch harmonic and a pinched loaf. Seriously, who's opinion about a car would you value more : my 80 year old mother or Richard Petty? That's why I like video reviews. It takes me 5 seconds to know whether a guy can play and I if should be concerned about his opinion at all. I'm not trying to knock on gear collectors. But, there should be some kind of disclaimer like "Here's my opinion (even though I don't know shit)..."

I can understand that and I find some truth to it in my experiences as well. Having said that on the other end of the spectrum I've met several middle aged players who know tone, can blow you away yet no one would know it because they don't posts clips in forums or youtube You also have a lot of great players on this forum who know how to play.

btw...I'm one of the middle age dudes (im 48) and the stock beefed chuck berry/hendrix/blues licks stuff isn't my bag but I can appreciate it. I'm more of a post EVH/RR guy into the classically influenced darkerstuff and melodic metal. I try to be versatile and play other stuff including pentatonic stuff. It is fun to play but I get bored with it after a couple tunes

 

[Badronald]

I don't want to sound like a dick..but here's my 1 problem with all these gear forums (as much as I still love them). You get some middle aged guy with way more money than chops trying to tell you what good tone/gear is or is not. I read all these stellar reviews about high priced amps/guitars from guys who don't have the skill set to even begin to touch or understand what their gear can do. It always starts off with the same bullshit "forgive my mediocre chops...let me tell you how outstanding this amp is..." If they can't fucking play, how am I to value their opinion at all? You're trying to justify/convince me that your $4000 amp is awesome by playing "Smells Like Teen Spirit?" or 1 or 2 simple pentatonic riffs? Is there an amp that doesn't sound awesome playing that song or a simple minor pentatonics? I want to hear a real guitar player put an amp through it's paces. There are some awesome players on these forums. But there is also a lot of useless bullshit by guys who wouldn't know the difference between a pinch harmonic and a pinched loaf. Seriously, who's opinion about a car would you value more : my 80 year old mother or Richard Petty? That's why I like video reviews. It takes me 5 seconds to know whether a guy can play and I if should be concerned about his opinion at all. I'm not trying to knock on gear collectors. But, there should be some kind of disclaimer like "Here's my opinion (even though I don't know shit)..."

I can understand that and I find some truth to it in my experiences as well. Having said that on the other end of the spectrum I've met several middle aged players who know tone, can blow you away yet no one would know it because they don't posts clips in forums or youtube You also have a lot of great players on this forum who know how to play.

btw...I'm one of the middle age dudes (im 48) and the stock beefed chuck berry/hendrix/blues licks stuff isn't my bag but I can appreciate it. I'm more of a post EVH/RR guy into the classically influenced darkerstuff and melodic metal. I try to be versatile and play other stuff including pentatonic stuff. It is fun to play but I get bored with it after a couple tunes

You both make good points. Funny you mention middle aged guys. I play around a lot and it seems to me that regardless of age I hear much more bad tone than good tone. I've seen VERY few younger guys in clubs get good tones. There have been a few that I've seen that have had great tone. But I've heard many more guys that grew up playing in the 70's and 80's get good tones.

Anyway. Good gear or not, either you can play or you can't. A Bogner and a Suhr ain't gonna make you suck any less.

 

[colimofsmoke]

I don't want to sound like a dick..but here's my 1 problem with all these gear forums (as much as I still love them). You get some middle aged guy with way more money than chops trying to tell you what good tone/gear is or is not. I read all these stellar reviews about high priced amps/guitars from guys who don't have the skill set to even begin to touch or understand what their gear can do. It always starts off with the same bullshit "forgive my mediocre chops...let me tell you how outstanding this amp is..." If they can't fucking play, how am I to value their opinion at all? You're trying to justify/convince me that your $4000 amp is awesome by playing "Smells Like Teen Spirit?" or 1 or 2 simple pentatonic riffs? Is there an amp that doesn't sound awesome playing that song or a simple minor pentatonics? I want to hear a real guitar player put an amp through it's paces. There are some awesome players on these forums. But there is also a lot of useless bullshit by guys who wouldn't know the difference between a pinch harmonic and a pinched loaf. Seriously, who's opinion about a car would you value more : my 80 year old mother or Richard Petty? That's why I like video reviews. It takes me 5 seconds to know whether a guy can play and I if should be concerned about his opinion at all. I'm not trying to knock on gear collectors. But, there should be some kind of disclaimer like "Here's my opinion (even though I don't know shit)..."

+1000

 

[Zachman]

I don't want to sound like a dick..but here's my 1 problem with all these gear forums (as much as I still love them). You get some middle aged guy with way more money than chops trying to tell you what good tone/gear is or is not. I read all these stellar reviews about high priced amps/guitars from guys who don't have the skill set to even begin to touch or understand what their gear can do. It always starts off with the same bullshit "forgive my mediocre chops...let me tell you how outstanding this amp is..." If they can't fucking play, how am I to value their opinion at all? You're trying to justify/convince me that your $4000 amp is awesome by playing "Smells Like Teen Spirit?" or 1 or 2 simple pentatonic riffs? Is there an amp that doesn't sound awesome playing that song or a simple minor pentatonics? I want to hear a real guitar player put an amp through it's paces. There are some awesome players on these forums. But there is also a lot of useless bullshit by guys who wouldn't know the difference between a pinch harmonic and a pinched loaf. Seriously, who's opinion about a car would you value more : my 80 year old mother or Richard Petty? That's why I like video reviews. It takes me 5 seconds to know whether a guy can play and I if should be concerned about his opinion at all. I'm not trying to knock on gear collectors. But, there should be some kind of disclaimer like "Here's my opinion (even though I don't know shit)..."

If they are unknown, why would you take their position to heart? I wouldn't/Don't either. It's the guys who are actually doing what I like, and getting results-- that I listen to, respect and associate with. The Collectors, dentists, kids, trolls and the like-- whose skill set and knowledge base is clearly not of a professional caliber, and clearly only legendary in their own minds who are easy to ignore, or dismiss as blowhards.

Either way-- Those guys don't affect me, my gear, preferences, gig schedule, nor my pocket book-- so I find it difficult seeing how they have such an impact on anyone, with such NON-relevance.

My $.02

 

[IceMan]

"Good tone" is subjective. "Good playing" is subjective. In the end it's ALL opinion. Death metal guys are going to like/appreciate sound and playing that is completely different than jazz guys. Yes, most can point to some 14yr old kid playing "Mary Had A Little Lamb" on an out-of-tune Squire Bullet through a 10 watt Crate and not find much to revel in. But it's the JOURNEY he's embarking on that we all share. Some focus on incredible technique - others on what gear inspires them to create. You can't just say that having awesome technical/musical skill is more or less important than creating amazing tone. If one is more important to YOU than the other - great. It doesn't make someone on the other side of the spectrum any less of player.

 

[Zachman]

"Good tone" is subjective. "Good playing" is subjective. In the end it's ALL opinion.

True, but in each category there is consensus as to a minimum level of acceptance.

 

[verderacer]

Alot of collectors out there that don't even play.

See: Rig-Talk.com

(sorry, had to....)

I think you mean the Gear Page...

Now thats damn funny Zach...

 

[steve_k]

I don't want to sound like a dick..but here's my 1 problem with all these gear forums (as much as I still love them). You get some middle aged guy with way more money than chops trying to tell you what good tone/gear is or is not. I read all these stellar reviews about high priced amps/guitars from guys who don't have the skill set to even begin to touch or understand what their gear can do. It always starts off with the same bullshit "forgive my mediocre chops...let me tell you how outstanding this amp is..." If they can't fucking play, how am I to value their opinion at all? You're trying to justify/convince me that your $4000 amp is awesome by playing "Smells Like Teen Spirit?" or 1 or 2 simple pentatonic riffs? Is there an amp that doesn't sound awesome playing that song or a simple minor pentatonics? I want to hear a real guitar player put an amp through it's paces. There are some awesome players on these forums. But there is also a lot of useless bullshit by guys who wouldn't know the difference between a pinch harmonic and a pinched loaf. Seriously, who's opinion about a car would you value more : my 80 year old mother or Richard Petty? That's why I like video reviews. It takes me 5 seconds to know whether a guy can play and I if should be concerned about his opinion at all. I'm not trying to knock on gear collectors. But, there should be some kind of disclaimer like "Here's my opinion (even though I don't know shit)..."

I don't know bro. If I were depending Joe Shit's video to make an amp purchase, I would be able to make a better decision on a few bars of "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and a few other simple riffs, rather than a bunch of fret wanking. But, that's my opinion (and I don't know shit).....

 

[Ventura]

Interestingly enough, some of the best "demo" vids and clips of gear have been riffs, licks, or the like of very simplistic, non (overtly)-stylized passages of playing. For clean, a few choice chords strummed and picked...running through the varied levels of EQ. Same for the other channels - simple, consistent, basic playing. This is what lets me hear the gear, not the player. In this case, I've found 'bland' to be better. And rather than emphasis on total guitar god wankin', or making it CLEAR to the audience that said demonstrator is partial to [enter band name here] style of music; attention to recording quality is way more important.

Just sayin'
Mo

 

[IceMan]

Interestingly enough, some of the best "demo" vids and clips of gear have been riffs, licks, or the like of very simplistic, non (overtly)-stylized passages of playing. For clean, a few choice chords strummed and picked...running through the varied levels of EQ. Same for the other channels - simple, consistent, basic playing. This is what lets me hear the gear, not the player. In this case, I've found 'bland' to be better. And rather than emphasis on total guitar god wankin', or making it CLEAR to the audience that said demonstrator is partial to [enter band name here] style of music; attention to recording quality is way more important.

Just sayin'
Mo

Agree 100%

 

[mentoneman]

i'd rather watch a guy on acoustic kill it than a guy with awesome gear who muddles by.

i saw a guy on friday with a small pedalboard into a fender super 60 combo that was so incredibly good i could have listened to him all night. sweet tone-superb musician.

i also have friends with piles of stuff and are very repetitive, lazy, and downright uninteresting because they play the same things they did a decade ago but are sloppierl and are in the habit of plunking on tones instead of learing songs and practicing for real

 

[stephen sawall]

being able to play with emotion>chops/technique>all the gear in the world

 

[steve_k]

i would rather suck with a killer rig.....

 

[Zap]

Personally, I would rather have the chops of Jeff Beck and Eric Johnson and play on a Squier than have a '59 Burst and only be able to play 3 chords. Fortunately, I got some nice stuff that make playing more enjoyable and I don't suck too bad. That's what it's all about, isn't it? Enjoyment? I don't think anyone can dispute nicer gear makes you sound better, and I will even go as far to say that gear like pedals can inspire you to play differently than you did before. I know I did when I first started using fuzz and delay. However, it will get to the point where you realize that the massive amount of money spent buying, swapping, and selling provides diminished returns after awhile. Is it really worth x grand to go through y more guitars, amps, and pedals, in order to find a tone that's 5% more to your liking when you already have gear that does more than an adequate job? Recently, for me, no... Although I do have my eye on a Fender Twin Reverb.

 

[Heritage Softail]

Personally, I would rather have the chops of Jeff Beck and Eric Johnson and play on a Squier than have a '59 Burst and only be able to play 3 chords. Fortunately, I got some nice stuff that make playing more enjoyable and I don't suck too bad. That's what it's all about, isn't it? Enjoyment? I don't think anyone can dispute nicer gear makes you sound better, and I will even go as far to say that gear like pedals can inspire you to play differently than you did before. I know I did when I first started using fuzz and delay. However, it will get to the point where you realize that the massive amount of money spent buying, swapping, and selling provides diminished returns after awhile. Is it really worth x grand to go through y more guitars, amps, and pedals, in order to find a tone that's 5% more to your liking when you already have gear that does more than an adequate job? Recently, for me, no... Although I do have my eye on a Fender Twin Reverb.

True enough. Some gear is a result of learning new styles of music. My tele and Dr Z is from learning some modern country, Brad Paisley stuff. Although i found that a Z is a very flexible amp, and the Tele has turned into one of my fav guitars.

I will try a 7 stringer.

The money? The money I used to spend on drugs/alcohol was much more, and then there were the secondary expenses. Gear is a much better hobby.

 

[Red_Label]

"Good tone" is subjective. "Good playing" is subjective. In the end it's ALL opinion. Death metal guys are going to like/appreciate sound and playing that is completely different than jazz guys. Yes, most can point to some 14yr old kid playing "Mary Had A Little Lamb" on an out-of-tune Squire Bullet through a 10 watt Crate and not find much to revel in. But it's the JOURNEY he's embarking on that we all share. Some focus on incredible technique - others on what gear inspires them to create. You can't just say that having awesome technical/musical skill is more or less important than creating amazing tone. If one is more important to YOU than the other - great. It doesn't make someone on the other side of the spectrum any less of player.

Sure it does. How many times have you walked through a music store and heard some kid sloppily (and loudly) banging-out some obnxious tune that just made you want to run back out the front door? Didn't matter whether he was playing through a Fender Frontman or a Mesa Triple Rec. He pretty much sucked and gear didn't do jack for him. Same goes for guys in YouTube vids. The gear didn't do or mean jack shit to me, it was their playing. Because I've heard some guys playing through some great gear that sounded like shit. Let's be real here... not that many guys who don't play well manage to get great tones... even out of great gear. Seriously... I've seen a lot of guys playing live in my lifetime and honestly, the ones who could play and who knew how to dial in their tone did it on whatever gear they were playing on - booteek or not. The guys who were bad/sloppy were the same, even on expensive gear.

Anyways... I don't care if someone who has money indulges in their hobby and sucks. That's fine. But when they pretend that the gear they can afford somehow buys them entry into the "players club" versus their chops... it's just not true. It doesn't really buy them anything. Because even the average non-player can hear the difference between someone who really can play and someone who just fakes it. And the average non-player ultimately doesn't give a crap what emblem/logo is on the amp/guitar.

Give me Tiger Woods' golf clubs. Now give Tiger my cheap Walmart Wilson set. Who's gonna shoot a lower score?

At any rate... tools are always important to doing a job. But the guy with no skill loses every time.