Did anyone just see that Obama speech?

[verderacer]

I have read the Communist Manifesto, and I know what Marxism is. If you did, you would not call Obama's election the advent of Marxism because you would be a fool. Marxism is a violent overthrow of government. Where does Obama call for a violent overthrow of government? Where does he advocate for the elimination of capitalism?

I would also like to hear how Marxist theory resembles Obama's in any way - the burden of proof is on you to present it since you brought it up.

Actually I game my opinion based on what I have heard Obama say in several speeches. I made a statement based on what I heard. You called into question my statement. I replied on where my opinion came from in regards to Marx's own thoughts and how Obama's coincide. Its your turn prove otherwise.

Now if your believe that Marxism can only be defined by the "violent overthrow of government" then I would think thats a pretty narrow viewpoint. Just my opinion of course, but I know most of the Russian studies department at Columbia University would agree also.

I think the taking a private companies lawfully obtained and earned profits by force of government power and nationalizing certain industries is Marxist. Obama has made such statements on regarding previous legislation, and most recently in speeches while running for the nomination.

Reading the mainifesto is about 1% of what the ideology is about. Also reading it and understanding what it means took me a year at Columbia. I did read it when I was 15 or 16 in high school oh so many many years ago, but did not really understand it till I studied Marx, Lenin, Stalin and Socialist/Communist ideology, along with Mussolini's Fascism and Italian Communism and all the other wonderful repressive eastern European governments at Harriman.

Lastly a fool would be one who has not learned from history. I don't call you a fool or even foolish, but I do think that some of what is being said is foolish. Alot of what is being said speaks loudly from differences in age.

Now its your turn... Lets try to be civil

 

[verderacer]

The whole idea of politics is a load of bollocks.
We're shafted either way...I haven't met a politician who wouldn't sell his soul for a dollar.

Aside from some of your other statements I would generally agree but there are a few honorable politicians. They are very rare.

 

[verderacer]

This is what you said, but this is what you mean.

What's up everybody, I'm talking out of my ass and desperately hoping to deflect any inquiries into my ridiculous assertions.

But it's totally cool to have ad hominem attacks about me all over this fucking thread, right?

Lets see if I get this correct. You know my mind so well to tell me what I really mean, libel my online name on this forum by making up a statement that I never wrote, and you say another person calling you on the point that is "add nothing to what could be a good overall conversation". is an attack?

I would think that honesty, including intellectual, is not a value to yourself.

 

[Copperhead]

Why do I keep reading this thread?

Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party, 1848

1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3) Aboltion of all rights of inheritance.

4) Confiscation of property of all emigrants and rebels.

5) Centralization of credit in the banks of state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8) Equal obligation of all work. Establishment of industrial armies; especially for agriculture.

9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all distinction between town and country by a more equal distribution of populance over the country.

10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its' present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

So, when a conservative person assails a liberal candidate as being "socialist" or "communist", the reference is that the conservative person is against higher taxes, loss of personal wealth and property, and loss of personal freedoms to the state, for whatever public purpose the funds may be put to, or for whatever public security or public good may come from surrendering the right to make decisions for yourself regarding where you live, where you work, whether you choose to own firearms, where your kids go to school, where you go to church, etc., etc.......

I never heard of an opposition to a liberal presidential candidate refering to a "violent overthrow of the government", I don't know where the heck that came from.

I am opposed to Obama because he wants to take my money and property and freedoms, even more so than what is currently being stripped from me by the federal government, to give it to people I would not trust with a penny, to teach my kids things I disagree with, and to shape the values of the present society to ideals I am opposed to.

That's why I think he's a commie pinko faggot.

 

[Gainzilla]

I'm still trying to work out why so many Americans are against giving disabled and homeless people a chance

I think it's because we feel like we give enough already and that of the amount we give, too much of it gets wasted in beauracracy. The reason we may feel like we give enough already?

Absolutely 100% dead on. Every time I hear some candidate talk about raising taxes, it just proves to me what a dumbass he or she is and how hard theyre trying to preach from some supposed moral high ground. Ever heard of throwing good money after bad? Well thats what the dems want to do and all it serves to do is avoid the real issues and weaken a nation.

Here's a novel idea; Instead of raising taxes, why doesnt anyone ever suggest implimenting legislature that would ensure proper usage and curtail waste of Monies collected? Im willing to bet that If we cut out the waste , we'd all get a crapload of money back..

One bit of irony that cracks me up all the time is how Liberals love to rail agaisnt the supposed loss of their rights and freedoms yet they have no qualms about instituting a government that can decide when an individual has earned too much and then happily tax the ass out of him. America has been billed as the land of opportunity from day one, unfortunately, there are those out there that would happily seek that on someone elses hard work rather than making it on their own and Im not for that mentality in any way shape or form. Cut out the BS Welfare and disability cases and make MoFos work. Its not mine or anyone elses problem if all someone is qualified to do is Minimum wage work, be it McDonalds, Janitor, etc. The Aherns who think that theyre above that and collect instead can bite me. If youre on welfare, you should be on birth control. What all this comes down to is that the Liberals want to see people of means penalized for simply succeeding

People constantly talk about a level playing field but no one ever talks about taking accountability or responsibility for making bad choices that prevented them from furthering themselves. Heres a newsflash, It will never be equal because things just arent and never have been. Some people arent capable of being more than laborers and others are meant to be Dr's , Lawyers, CEO's etc. That isnt a problem that should burden the rest of society

 

[mctallica1]

That's why I think he's a commie pinko faggot.

That made me laugh





Carry on folks...this thread is very entertaining!

 

[Gainzilla]

It means I'm not going to bother wasting my time going through his post responding to the sheer amounts of bullshit in it.

No. It means you DON'T have any arguments to make, since cloudnine was 100%. If you did, you WOULD have responded logically and coherently. Since you refuse to prove anything I assume you've NOTHING to prove!

Bullshit, what it means that anything he could say would be a waste of time considering Seans views. Sean 100%???? that must be some strong shit that youre smoking...

BTW, I like Sean alot except for his political views and how he gets when discussing them. Thats the only time that I really dont like him..

 

[Copperhead]

That made me laugh

Humor Intended!

 

[PeteLaramee]

That's why I think he's a commie pinko faggot.

That made me laugh





Carry on folks...this thread is very entertaining!

+1 on both counts.

 

[tweed]

Fuck all you people. Im voting in EVH for president.

 

[Jordon]

But it's totally cool to have ad hominem attacks about me all over this fucking thread, right?

No dude, it's ok. Because we aren't living in America and we are unpatriotic they can say what they want about us, and make unmitigated claims about _EVERYTHING_ and it's cool.

Did somebody say you were unpatriotic? I did not see that but I have not said it. Why would you be patriotic for America? You do not live here, you have not fought to my knowledge for our country? You both talk as if you know what we need, which i find more humorous than anything.

Sometimes the clearest perspective is from the outside looking in.

 

[ttosh]

Sometimes the clearest perspective is from the outside looking in.

"Sometimes", being the key word here.

 

[Jordon]

Sometimes the clearest perspective is from the outside looking in.

"Sometimes", being the key word here.

Ahh, yes "sometimes" is indeed the key word. The catch is, no one will know where the clearest view lies unless there are people on either side.

 

[defpearlpilot]

psychodave, how can you say Bush's administration "wasn't that bad"? My God, the economy is in shambles, you're in an unwinnable war, and progressive causes in almost every area have been set back 10 years. Yes, 9/11 would be a horrible thing for anyone to deal with - but instead of using it as a way to unite everyone in a common cause, they just used it as carte blanche to further their own agenda.

Who wrote this? Show me how the economy is in shambles. Give me details. Please keep in mind that I work in finance and manage almost 6 BILLION in assets. I understand the economy.

You know I work in finance as well and the economy IS in shambles. The markets are absolutely atrocious right now. Experienced(15,20+ years) traders have never seen a market like this.

 

[defpearlpilot]

Free entitlements by the Government by taking from one segment of society to give to another is pretty much the opposite of a capitalistic ideal IMHO.

True...but that is not what constitutes Socialism. Lets try this another way...
I have to listen everyday to guys moan over gas prices. I tell you what 2 years ago I went from a car that I got a combined 15 miles to a car that I get a combined 30 miles. My wife car pools with me. So, listening to guys with a minivan and a big SUV complain about gas prices floors me. Who says that you need to own cars that cost you that much in gas. This is where I see entitlement.
Between the wife and me we pay about 300-400 bucks a month in health insurance. I would be okay paying an extra 20 % for a fund that goes for folks that don't have that. And you can extend this...back to gas, taxes type stuff. I'm all for an extra tax on gas to go for road improvements etc, instead of rolling it into car registration. Have the folks that use roads more, pay ,ore. Simple as that.
I'm a big believer by any chain being as strong as the weakest link.
I'm also all for Unions. I still pay my dues every year even though the Union for me is damn near useless. But there is truth to..."...Unions, who brought you weekends".

Let me illustrate a point, in my working band, one of the guys made some stupid decisions which led to friction and one of the other guys quitting. The dude that was the source felt horrible, and was ready to shoulder all responsibility. But I think that any group, band, marriage, community, even country needs to work through screw ups as a unit. In other words one guys screws it up, all guys pay for it.

I cannot disagree with anything you stated here at all!

To me this mentality also leads to something else I favor, a flat tax!

Flat taxes are bad because they favor those who can afford not to "consume."

 

[defpearlpilot]

To me the overall differences in the Liberal view and the Conservative view is Socialism versus Capitalism. To put this into gear related terms:

You spend the last year gigging non stop. You buy your new rack setup based on the work and efforts you put in over the last year. You also have a family and full time job you keep and you are building your American dream.

Then there is the other guy who basically decides he wants a rig but does not want to work for it and does not really care to have a job since he is doing fine as is.

You can help him out and maybe give him your old rig, that would be a generous offer. Or you can have a governing power step in and say wow you are making money from the job and gigging and your income is quite high, let's take your new rig and give it to the less fortunate guy. You still have the old rig anyway.

That is the mentality of punishing the person who does well (Socialistic) views that a lot of liberal policies are based off of. I cannot buy into this mentality.

That's a hell of an analogy.
I do see your point. But by the same token, growing up i a Socialist country that thrived I don't really view it like this.

Once upon a time I was out of work, out of money, out of everything. And the system worked for me. Subsequently when I made money I was quite happy to know that me paying into it would tak care of some one else that is in the same situation.

Exactly. This is how I am with my friends. If I can I afford to help them now, I would hope that they could help me when I can afford to help myself.

The thing to remember is that there are always people taking advantage of something. To me, if someone takes advantage of welfare.. that is far less worse than those that are well off and take advantage of others(corporations, the greedy).

 

[defpearlpilot]

liberalism is a mental disorder

Then I am proud to be mentally ill..

Although I doubt that anyone who's met me would say so.

 

[defpearlpilot]

Oh. here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

And oh come on, it's obvious he meant to say 47 states and after being on the road going to all those states and getting no sleep how do you think your mind would be working?

What's Georges excuse when he nice and rested at Camp David and he still puts his foot in his mouth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijz1CdUj ... re=related

Absolutely... what Obama said was a one off. If you've heard the man speak, you know that he's not an idiot like Bush.

 

[defpearlpilot]

I know I am a bit late chiming in here, but I just listened to 2 of Obama's speaches. All I can say if he is elected welcome to Marxist America.

Marxism: A political doctrine where the proletariat have to rise up in a violent revolution to get class equality, achieved by eliminating capitalism.

Yep, Obama's a Marxist.

This is no less misleading and WRONG than those dummies who call Bush a facist.

So its your opinion that Obama's idea of what Govt is would not be called Marxist? Your either to young to understand or know nothing about what Marx's idealogical underpinnings are other than looking up a internet definition. Again its just my opinion but I would suggest that you listen carefully to what Obama says about privately held companies and their earnings for starters. Then you might want to listen carefully to his thoughts on education. Then read Marx's thoughts on the very same things. Tell me what you find different if anything.

And do you enjoy any of the gaffe's that Pelosi, Clinton, Boxer, Kennedy, Gore, Carter to only name a few, have made. One could easily claim they are stupid also but the media does not play them up. It only plays up ones from Bush to diminish and purposely incite disapproval of him as president. Errors are errors and any one who publicly speaks as much as any politician does will make some. It think how the left finds only errors with Bush speeches, word usage says more about how intellectually dishonest they are and not the other way around. I think its more important to listen to what it is they are speaking about rather than some small error in speaking or wording. I think content is more important.

There was a video on Youtube or somewhere that I saw where they compared Bush's speeches as governor and as president. SOMETHING happened to that man. Because now, he's a blathering idiot. IF Bush spoke now how he did back then, I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps it's because English is my second language but I find that I have more respect for people that can actually speak it properly. And I don't mean strict grammar and all that. But Bush is constantly stuttering and looking for the words to say which gives me the impression that he really has no idea what is going on. Whether you are liberal or conservative or whatever, that is plan to see.

 

[mrp5150]

Politics FTL.