Fortin Jose Marshalls?

[NewReligion]

The Yeti and KK are voiced very similar, the first video didn't sound like either to me. The Ceriatone stuff falls short in the power/NFB section. If you are going to copy a circuit, don't overlook one of the most critical parts of the design. But I guess, when the only parts of schematics that Nik copies from the internet are incomplete or incorrect, so you get 80%. Either of those amps could be modified to a more Cameron correct spec fairly easy.

Personal curiosity: what's inherently wrong in Ceriatone circuit? I mean sound wise. The mods I see here and there (but mostly here) are said to sound plain better, and more Cameron-like, but I'd like to understand a lil better what kind of objective improvements those mods deliver. Tighter? More djent metal articulation? More gain?

Cameron's designs in my opinion are the sum of all parts rather than a specific part of the circuit. Niks stuff copys alot of the physical topology, but uses alot traditional values for peaking cap/resistor values, tone stack slope resistor and treble cap values. He also uses generic depth/NFB values. Most of stuff as I've said before is made from incomplete or incorrect internet schematics and assumptions are made. Doing them partially is simply missing quite a bit. While Cameron s mods.a very much all 1 offs, there are signature component values that he like to use in most builds. B+ Voltage, transformer inductance and impedance all has an effect on the tone. It it in the power section and NFB, where you see the most tweaking to account for these differences. For example, the restistor.in line with the fixed or adjustable depth control will have a great affect on the brightness of the amp. Mark also has some trickery that he does with the depth control different than Nik as well as the type of caps used in this position will yield a more gritty tone. Nik rarely reverse engineers the amps. He barters parts for information and lurks some the DIY builder forums and let's others do the work.

Agreed.

When I modded my JCA20 Mark and I went over everything. It was clearly the sum of all parts. I did mods to every section of the amp. There were fine tuning of the power section when I got my desired sound out of the preamp section. Also, part selection is a massive part of the the magic. Not all caps sound the same.

One thing David said that I don’t agree with is clipping. To me, when done right, it sounds as good as an all tube circuit.

I agree the clippers sound as good, even great, just different. But given the choice most (95%) of the guys that want my work are after the analog tube tone. Much like Doug Rappoport told me, he too never uses the SAT switch on the Friedman SS/BE 100.

With the music I play the clippers are enjoyable but then I plug into an all tube 4 stage with CF and it sounds huge and smooth. Then I plug into a non CF 4 stage all tube and it is as good as it gets to my ear. It is just that the non CF does not clean up as well with the guitar volume pot.

Tone is in the ear of the beholder. This is what brings diversity. I prefer a certain 2011 Blue Face VH4 over most amps I have ever played.

I will play a badass HSS Stratocaster over a Les Paul any day. Different strokes for different folks. Best to all.

David

I was politely disagreeing. I do love the sound of all tube circuit too. The Aldrich Mark did for me a long time ago sounds insane. Can get that crazy smooth tone withe lasting sustain. It would be killer if someone made an amp with two channels. One side Jose style and the other Aldrich style with each having their own depth and presence.

You have always been polite. Unfortunately there are no allowances for voice inflections when writing in a forum.

Jack Frost from Seven Witches and Lizzy Borden asked me if I could do exactly that. I told him to contact Mark because The “Aldrich” is Mark’s first designed circuit. Though I can do it I do not have Mark’s ear nor would I be that impolite as he is a friend. As for other working Jose/Cali etc...and other non Cathode Followers Cantrell, Shark “Bogner/Hafler/Cameron/Splawn/Engl circuits I am open to.

I told Mark about it to which he stated he could do it and wondered why Jack did not contact him.

It wouldn’t be to hard depending on the layout and relay switching as we all realize that the Cathode Follower is key to both circuits.

There are so many talented tech’s and killer players here. It is so nice to hear the diversity and takes upon even a single circuit type.

I do apologize if I came across brash or smart ass. So much for all of us to still learn and share.

Here is an example of my 4 stage non Cathode Follower Circuit.

Respectfully, David

David

 

[psychodave]

The Yeti and KK are voiced very similar, the first video didn't sound like either to me. The Ceriatone stuff falls short in the power/NFB section. If you are going to copy a circuit, don't overlook one of the most critical parts of the design. But I guess, when the only parts of schematics that Nik copies from the internet are incomplete or incorrect, so you get 80%. Either of those amps could be modified to a more Cameron correct spec fairly easy.

Personal curiosity: what's inherently wrong in Ceriatone circuit? I mean sound wise. The mods I see here and there (but mostly here) are said to sound plain better, and more Cameron-like, but I'd like to understand a lil better what kind of objective improvements those mods deliver. Tighter? More djent metal articulation? More gain?

Cameron's designs in my opinion are the sum of all parts rather than a specific part of the circuit. Niks stuff copys alot of the physical topology, but uses alot traditional values for peaking cap/resistor values, tone stack slope resistor and treble cap values. He also uses generic depth/NFB values. Most of stuff as I've said before is made from incomplete or incorrect internet schematics and assumptions are made. Doing them partially is simply missing quite a bit. While Cameron s mods.a very much all 1 offs, there are signature component values that he like to use in most builds. B+ Voltage, transformer inductance and impedance all has an effect on the tone. It it in the power section and NFB, where you see the most tweaking to account for these differences. For example, the restistor.in line with the fixed or adjustable depth control will have a great affect on the brightness of the amp. Mark also has some trickery that he does with the depth control different than Nik as well as the type of caps used in this position will yield a more gritty tone. Nik rarely reverse engineers the amps. He barters parts for information and lurks some the DIY builder forums and let's others do the work.

Agreed.

When I modded my JCA20 Mark and I went over everything. It was clearly the sum of all parts. I did mods to every section of the amp. There were fine tuning of the power section when I got my desired sound out of the preamp section. Also, part selection is a massive part of the the magic. Not all caps sound the same.

One thing David said that I don’t agree with is clipping. To me, when done right, it sounds as good as an all tube circuit.

I agree the clippers sound as good, even great, just different. But given the choice most (95%) of the guys that want my work are after the analog tube tone. Much like Doug Rappoport told me, he too never uses the SAT switch on the Friedman SS/BE 100.

With the music I play the clippers are enjoyable but then I plug into an all tube 4 stage with CF and it sounds huge and smooth. Then I plug into a non CF 4 stage all tube and it is as good as it gets to my ear. It is just that the non CF does not clean up as well with the guitar volume pot.

Tone is in the ear of the beholder. This is what brings diversity. I prefer a certain 2011 Blue Face VH4 over most amps I have ever played.

I will play a badass HSS Stratocaster over a Les Paul any day. Different strokes for different folks. Best to all.

David

I was politely disagreeing. I do love the sound of all tube circuit too. The Aldrich Mark did for me a long time ago sounds insane. Can get that crazy smooth tone withe lasting sustain. It would be killer if someone made an amp with two channels. One side Jose style and the other Aldrich style with each having their own depth and presence.

You have always been polite. Unfortunately there are no allowances for voice inflections when writing in a forum.

Jack Frost from Seven Witches and Lizzy Borden asked me if I could do exactly that. I told him to contact Mark because The “Aldrich” is Mark’s first designed circuit. Though I can do it I do not have Mark’s ear nor would I be that impolite as he is a friend. As for other working Jose/Cali etc...and other non Cathode Followers Cantrell, Shark “Bogner/Hafler/Cameron/Splawn/Engl circuits I am open to.

I told Mark about it to which he stated he could do it and wondered why Jack did not contact him.

It wouldn’t be to hard depending on the layout and relay switching as we all realize that the Cathode Follower is key to both circuits.

There are so many talented tech’s and killer players here. It is so nice to hear the diversity and takes upon even a single circuit type.

I do apologize if I came across brash or smart ass. So much for all of us to still learn and share.

Here is an example of my 4 stage non Cathode Follower Circuit.

Respectfully, David

David

I’m friends with Jack. He’s a really cool and nice guy. I chat with him a few times a year.

 

[NewReligion]

The Yeti and KK are voiced very similar, the first video didn't sound like either to me. The Ceriatone stuff falls short in the power/NFB section. If you are going to copy a circuit, don't overlook one of the most critical parts of the design. But I guess, when the only parts of schematics that Nik copies from the internet are incomplete or incorrect, so you get 80%. Either of those amps could be modified to a more Cameron correct spec fairly easy.

Personal curiosity: what's inherently wrong in Ceriatone circuit? I mean sound wise. The mods I see here and there (but mostly here) are said to sound plain better, and more Cameron-like, but I'd like to understand a lil better what kind of objective improvements those mods deliver. Tighter? More djent metal articulation? More gain?

Cameron's designs in my opinion are the sum of all parts rather than a specific part of the circuit. Niks stuff copys alot of the physical topology, but uses alot traditional values for peaking cap/resistor values, tone stack slope resistor and treble cap values. He also uses generic depth/NFB values. Most of stuff as I've said before is made from incomplete or incorrect internet schematics and assumptions are made. Doing them partially is simply missing quite a bit. While Cameron s mods.a very much all 1 offs, there are signature component values that he like to use in most builds. B+ Voltage, transformer inductance and impedance all has an effect on the tone. It it in the power section and NFB, where you see the most tweaking to account for these differences. For example, the restistor.in line with the fixed or adjustable depth control will have a great affect on the brightness of the amp. Mark also has some trickery that he does with the depth control different than Nik as well as the type of caps used in this position will yield a more gritty tone. Nik rarely reverse engineers the amps. He barters parts for information and lurks some the DIY builder forums and let's others do the work.

Agreed.

When I modded my JCA20 Mark and I went over everything. It was clearly the sum of all parts. I did mods to every section of the amp. There were fine tuning of the power section when I got my desired sound out of the preamp section. Also, part selection is a massive part of the the magic. Not all caps sound the same.

One thing David said that I don’t agree with is clipping. To me, when done right, it sounds as good as an all tube circuit.

I agree the clippers sound as good, even great, just different. But given the choice most (95%) of the guys that want my work are after the analog tube tone. Much like Doug Rappoport told me, he too never uses the SAT switch on the Friedman SS/BE 100.

With the music I play the clippers are enjoyable but then I plug into an all tube 4 stage with CF and it sounds huge and smooth. Then I plug into a non CF 4 stage all tube and it is as good as it gets to my ear. It is just that the non CF does not clean up as well with the guitar volume pot.

Tone is in the ear of the beholder. This is what brings diversity. I prefer a certain 2011 Blue Face VH4 over most amps I have ever played.

I will play a badass HSS Stratocaster over a Les Paul any day. Different strokes for different folks. Best to all.

David

I was politely disagreeing. I do love the sound of all tube circuit too. The Aldrich Mark did for me a long time ago sounds insane. Can get that crazy smooth tone withe lasting sustain. It would be killer if someone made an amp with two channels. One side Jose style and the other Aldrich style with each having their own depth and presence.

You have always been polite. Unfortunately there are no allowances for voice inflections when writing in a forum.

Jack Frost from Seven Witches and Lizzy Borden asked me if I could do exactly that. I told him to contact Mark because The “Aldrich” is Mark’s first designed circuit. Though I can do it I do not have Mark’s ear nor would I be that impolite as he is a friend. As for other working Jose/Cali etc...and other non Cathode Followers Cantrell, Shark “Bogner/Hafler/Cameron/Splawn/Engl circuits I am open to.

I told Mark about it to which he stated he could do it and wondered why Jack did not contact him.

It wouldn’t be to hard depending on the layout and relay switching as we all realize that the Cathode Follower is key to both circuits.

There are so many talented tech’s and killer players here. It is so nice to hear the diversity and takes upon even a single circuit type.

I do apologize if I came across brash or smart ass. So much for all of us to still learn and share.

Here is an example of my 4 stage non Cathode Follower Circuit.

Respectfully, David

David

I’m friends with Jack. He’s a really cool and nice guy. I chat with him a few times a year.

Cool. You might pass onto him that Mark said he is willing to do the Jose/Aldrich according to my conversation if you like. Or he can call to get it straight from me so it is not hearsay or just call Mark.

David

 

[panhead]

Has anyone modded a JCM 900 MKIII? Seems it has the foundation of Jose.

 

[NewReligion]

Has anyone modded a JCM 900 MKIII? Seems it has the foundation of Jose.

Here is a 1990 Marshall JCM 900 2500 I did. It now resides somewhere in Europe.

Plugged straight in.

David

 

[panhead]

do you possibly have any full chords from that amp. What did you do to the amp? Thanks

 

[NewReligion]

do you possibly have any full chords from that amp. What did you do to the amp? Thanks

That is the only recording I have of that amp.

Here are the simple changes I made to the circuit. These PCB locations apply to the first year JCM 900 2500 Preamp.

1.) R5 = 3.3k Resistor with .68uf Bypass Cap
2.) R8 = 1.5k Resistor with .68uf Bypass Cap
3.) D2 = Remove single 1N4007 Diode & replace with set of 5.1 volt Zener's Cathodes outward.
4.) R4 = (Anode) Resistor 320k
5.) R7 = (Anode) Resistor 320k

I recommend Chinese 12AX7's.

This is the entirety of changes I made.

Enjoy, David...♫

 

[OdieRocks]

Dont rule out member MichaelR/T if you want a killer Marshall mod. There are plenty of his YouTube vids to check out too. I know he's in Canada but I've talked to him on the phone before and he told me he's done a bunch of mods for guys in the U.S. and has never had any issues with amps shipped to him.

 

[panhead]

do you possibly have any full chords from that amp. What did you do to the amp? Thanks

That is the only recording I have of that amp.

Here are the simple changes I made to the circuit. These PCB locations apply to the first year JCM 900 2500 Preamp.

1.) R5 = 3.3k Resistor with .68uf Bypass Cap
2.) R8 = 1.5k Resistor with .68uf Bypass Cap
3.) D2 = Remove single 1N4007 Diode & replace with set of 5.1 volt Zener's Cathodes outward.
4.) R4 = (Anode) Resistor 320k
5.) R7 = (Anode) Resistor 320k

I recommend Chinese 12AX7's.

This is the entirety of changes I made.

Enjoy, David...♫

Thanks David

 

[Thunkful]

I've noticed that a lot of these Jose mods(or mods based on that schematic) from different modders/builders seem to sound really modern compared to the sound of the 80's where i usually associate the term "Jose".

Meanwhile the actual "Jose" from Fortin seems to nail the 80's metal perfectly, i think that the "Cali" is way too modern sounding for that. Same applies to the "Jose" from few other builders.

Ofc this is just my opinion, i just wonder that if the "Jose" has a different meaning today than it did back in the days.

 

[Zado]

I've noticed that a lot of these Jose mods(or mods based on that schematic) from different modders/builders seem to sound really modern compared to the sound of the 80's where i usually associate the term "Jose".

Meanwhile the actual "Jose" from Fortin seems to nail the 80's metal perfectly, i think that the "Cali" is way too modern sounding for that. Same applies to the "Jose" from few other builders.

Ofc this is just my opinion, i just wonder that if the "Jose" has a different meaning today than it did back in the days.

My thought exactly.

 

[scottosan]

I've noticed that a lot of these Jose mods(or mods based on that schematic) from different modders/builders seem to sound really modern compared to the sound of the 80's where i usually associate the term "Jose".

Meanwhile the actual "Jose" from Fortin seems to nail the 80's metal perfectly, i think that the "Cali" is way too modern sounding for that. Same applies to the "Jose" from few other builders.

Ofc this is just my opinion, i just wonder that if the "Jose" has a different meaning today than it did back in the days.

My thought exactly.

that's is because Mike and Gower did some original Jose's base on the original specs and then the Cali, which was based on Cameron's Jose mods. The Killer Kali is a 4 gain stage mod..

The term Jose today is loosely refered to Jose's implementation of clippers and master volume in the front of the tone stack.

To me, the standard Jose is not very versatile and can sound really bad if not dialed in just right. I've seen people use original Jose specs in and prefer the clippers out of circuit.

 

[wIsEbLooD]

I think the cali mods mike did all sounded a bit different, depending on the donor amp.
the one I had mike do is a metro 68 plexi 50 watt circuit and it is a flamethrower.

 

[psychodave]

I've noticed that a lot of these Jose mods(or mods based on that schematic) from different modders/builders seem to sound really modern compared to the sound of the 80's where i usually associate the term "Jose".

Meanwhile the actual "Jose" from Fortin seems to nail the 80's metal perfectly, i think that the "Cali" is way too modern sounding for that. Same applies to the "Jose" from few other builders.

Ofc this is just my opinion, i just wonder that if the "Jose" has a different meaning today than it did back in the days.

The funny thing is that I heard that “original Jose” was one of the bunch that Mark finished after Jose’s death. The music store Mark worked for acquired all of the stock in Jose shop. Lots of unfinished amps.

 

[FourT6and2]

I've noticed that a lot of these Jose mods(or mods based on that schematic) from different modders/builders seem to sound really modern compared to the sound of the 80's where i usually associate the term "Jose".

Meanwhile the actual "Jose" from Fortin seems to nail the 80's metal perfectly, i think that the "Cali" is way too modern sounding for that. Same applies to the "Jose" from few other builders.

Ofc this is just my opinion, i just wonder that if the "Jose" has a different meaning today than it did back in the days.

I can't speak for anybody else but I don't like that '80s tone. I didn't grow up listening to that kind of music as I'm a bit younger. So when I build an amp for myself, I voice it how I like it. I don't listen to or play '80s stuff. But I can certainly appreciate some of that music and the guitar tones associated with it. But I like '90s hard rock up through modern metal and I gravitate toward modern prog rock/metal: Tool, Karnivool, Tesseract, etc.

 

[technomancer]

I've noticed that a lot of these Jose mods(or mods based on that schematic) from different modders/builders seem to sound really modern compared to the sound of the 80's where i usually associate the term "Jose".

Meanwhile the actual "Jose" from Fortin seems to nail the 80's metal perfectly, i think that the "Cali" is way too modern sounding for that. Same applies to the "Jose" from few other builders.

Ofc this is just my opinion, i just wonder that if the "Jose" has a different meaning today than it did back in the days.

Also keep in mind that the early Fortin Cali Marshall mod and the current Cali amp are not the same thing. They both have clippers but the current amp uses a plate fed tone stack and is much more modern than the earlier Cali mod (I owned a Cali modded 2203 for a while).

As for Jose mods in general, like anything else how they sound can be tuned to taste when modding. Most of the Jose modded Marshalls are doing a lot more than just adding the Jose master with clippers.

 

[ClintN667]

I've noticed that a lot of these Jose mods(or mods based on that schematic) from different modders/builders seem to sound really modern compared to the sound of the 80's where i usually associate the term "Jose".

Meanwhile the actual "Jose" from Fortin seems to nail the 80's metal perfectly, i think that the "Cali" is way too modern sounding for that. Same applies to the "Jose" from few other builders.

Ofc this is just my opinion, i just wonder that if the "Jose" has a different meaning today than it did back in the days.

I can't speak for anybody else but I don't like that '80s tone. I didn't grow up listening to that kind of music as I'm a bit younger. So when I build an amp for myself, I voice it how I like it. I don't listen to or play '80s stuff. But I can certainly appreciate some of that music and the guitar tones associated with it. But I like '90s hard rock up through modern metal and I gravitate toward modern prog rock/metal: Tool, Karnivool, Tesseract, etc.

I'm not a fan either by the time I started really listening to music as a teenager the hair metal bands were all dying out or changing to stay relevant. I was into thrash like megadeth ,overkill, anthrax, s.o.d. then got into death metal before finally getting into stuff like Buzzoven, the Melvins, eyehategod. Nowadays my favorite guitar tones are stuff like Mastodon, Pelican, and a few others. The tone on Pelican's drought is hands down my favorite guitar tones these days. It's heavy as hell but you still have more definition.

 

[panhead]

That era is obviously over except guitar forums and few artist that are hanging on for dear life. If you were at the beginnings of VH you would be in your late 50`s to mid 60`s now. The only techs that would know first hand are Bradshaw Suhr and Jackson and Soldano. Ed`s amps weren't even modded and around 1979-1980 Friedman and Cameron were 8-10 years old. Back then didn't think about the amp specifics as long as it was a marshall and sounded good, it was all about the playing especially Ed.

 

[Monomyth]

I've noticed that a lot of these Jose mods(or mods based on that schematic) from different modders/builders seem to sound really modern compared to the sound of the 80's where i usually associate the term "Jose".

Meanwhile the actual "Jose" from Fortin seems to nail the 80's metal perfectly, i think that the "Cali" is way too modern sounding for that. Same applies to the "Jose" from few other builders.

Ofc this is just my opinion, i just wonder that if the "Jose" has a different meaning today than it did back in the days.

To be honest the term Jose has became a very wide genre, aside from the famous schematic theres a specific master volume that can be added to damn near most designs and we call them Jose’s also, at least I do.