Gig Report - harsh conditions in the real world.

[DeezDemos]

No issues with the amps low end. VH4 was surgical. It was just that I couldn't turn it up to the sweet spot. Talk attenuators for live to me..anyone?

I've had a Rivera Rock Crusher for about four days now, & it works extremely well with my Herbert...........Honestly though, I still prefer the Axe-Fx solution for live use at this point.

 

[glassjaw7]

No issues with the amps low end. VH4 was surgical. It was just that I couldn't turn it up to the sweet spot. Talk attenuators for live to me..anyone?

Your OP stated that you wanted more of your guitar in the monitors and that all you heard were vocals. This will not be fixed by an attenuator. Yes, your tone will sound fat (phat ), but you still wouldn't have been able to hear it because your overall volume would have been the same in the mix (due to the poor soundman).

If you want to hear your attenuated "sweet spot" amp tone at a low volume your still going to have to do something with the placement of your cab.

Agreed. I've played gigs with my cab facing backward so I could crank my amp.
Another option is to find your own sound man that will travel with you and learn to adapt to the way you guys work. No surprises! Sounds like you guys have the work ethic and have put a lot of money into your gear and album. IMO it's sooo worth it to buy your own board/mixer and PA. Get a guy to run it. Done!

 

[nevusofota]

No issues with the amps low end. VH4 was surgical. It was just that I couldn't turn it up to the sweet spot. Talk attenuators for live to me..anyone?

Also, I forgot to mention............if your amp was "surgical" and didn't have low end loss I would consider this a win and not worry about an attenuator. Yes, your amp might not have that perfect sweet spot harmonic content you're used to at home but we're just talking about the ability to hear yourself live at this point.

 

[Shark Diver]

No issues with the amps low end. VH4 was surgical. It was just that I couldn't turn it up to the sweet spot. Talk attenuators for live to me..anyone?

This is what I was going to suggest. Talk to Rob, he might have something you need I have a Faustine somewhere, if I could find it you could use it.

Some one mentioned the Axe. Never could get that where I wanted - and at 90% of clubs it is sound man/speakers there dependent as well.

If you are going to use IEMs consider something like a Two-Notes LIVE and use the IRs in that for monitoring. Speaker through to cab and line out to your IEMs. It could be in your rack (or the C.A.B. pedal if you don't use a rack) and there would be no setup time.

 

[Shark Diver]

Nice photos btw. Wrong amp, you would have heard your SLO

 

[glassjaw7]

No issues with the amps low end. VH4 was surgical. It was just that I couldn't turn it up to the sweet spot. Talk attenuators for live to me..anyone?

Also, I forgot to mention............if your amp was "surgical" and didn't have low end loss I would consider this a win and not worry about an attenuator. Yes, your amp might not have that perfect sweet spot harmonic content you're used to at home but we're just talking about the ability to hear yourself live at this point.

Yep, 90% of the time, playing live you're not going to get to "enjoy" your rig like you do at home, where you can hear the subtle nuances and bask in the glory that is your tone

It's definitely about hearing yourself and more often than not I end up with a pretty brash sounding guitar tone coming back at me from my wedge, but I'm just thankful to hear myself, and I know it sounds great for the crowd. That, and we do turn up louder than most sound guys would like but our dude has to deal with it. nothing like feeling your amp behind you!

I once used my recto 212 tilted back pointing up at my head as a monitor, but honestly I like the wedge tone better for live. It has a sort of brash honkiness that gets my leads back to my ears clearly and separates from the band mix.

 

[tripstan]

No issues with the amps low end. VH4 was surgical. It was just that I couldn't turn it up to the sweet spot. Talk attenuators for live to me..anyone?

I use a volume pedal in the series loop on my Einstein. Pretty much works like a poor mans attenuator. Used a EB jr for awhile. I got a Dunlop DVP-1 now, it works a lot better.

 

[Gsxrbusa]

The overwhelming consensus was that it sounded huge and tight up front and in the back of the hall.
I was relieved to hear lots of applause after each song, it was one of the tougher ones I have played, but I pulled it off the best I could.
I might just have to get a personal monitor. I have a Diezel 1x12 cab loaded with a g12H30. (Thx Shark Diver!)

At these volumes I had to play tonight I could have just had the 1x12 and been done, (will look like shit though)

At least the FOH sounded good.

Another thing you can do, short of IEM's, is buy your own personal monitor for your guitars. Get an active monitor, 500-700 watts, and use the Palmer off your Diezel to send a DI to it. Place it next to the shit stage monitors up front, or as a side wash monitor where you can move around and hear yourself.

What is this "Palmer" You speak of sir?

 

[King Guitar]

Its been a while since I played out in a regular band and not sitting in but I always would turn my 4x12 cab backwards and have a 2x12 cab on a stand pointing right at me. That way I could hear WTF, if I were playing out today I would use in ears and mix it myself from the stage.

 

[ConcreteVampire]

I've played Paladino's 20+ times... certain things are facts about that Club...

Phil is actually a nice guy, doe's what he can with the WORST MONITORS EVER. They even "Invested" in new ones a few years back, that I swear are worse than the old ones!

Phil, (Even if your supporting) will make FOH sound good and huge. I've been up in that booth a 1000 times, it always sounds good. Problem is they mix Low stage volume, and crank the shit out of FOH. Don't ask me why... Soldano at Paladinos, Volume 3... The Whisky 7... Unless your headlining, I've always "Gotten" away with more volume headlining there.

I use in-ears, mainly because I sing, but I've got a mic aimed at my cab and the band for my own monitor mix. I dont care what the venue has onstage. One of the main reasons I actually got the in ears was fronting a Maiden tribute for years, playing Paladino's regularily and not hearing myself! lol...

Definately look into an attenuator (Darren Stroud is a great example of small venue attenuated crankage), the Deizel is prolly too much amp for LA CLub stage volumes, Unless your headlining, then "There's no rules!" They certainly don't tell Ritchie Kotzen to turn down... National touring acts will deafen your ass in that club...

Another reaon I play 50 watters, and just had an 18 watter built...

Check yourselves with your rehearsal volumes, bands that rehearse at crazy cranked up volumes, are often dissapointed when they get to a club, and hear, "That's as loud as your gonna get to play here..."

Sorry I missed the show, had other commitments...

 

['63-Strat]

Ah, Paladino's. I agree the monitor mixes there can suck but I've usually been able to play at decent volumes there, maybe you do need to get used to rehearsing a little bit quieter? Impossible to say as I wasn't there, was playing a paid bass gig in thousand oaks last night, lol. Still while I've certainly never come close to cranking my Bogner there I haven't had a problem hearing my guitar and I don't like *any* guitar in the monitors, personally. But as said, if the FOH sounded great that's all that really matters in the end.

 

[mentoneman]

Definately look into an attenuator (Darren Stroud is a great example of small venue attenuated crankage), the Deizel is prolly too much amp for LA CLub stage volumes, Unless your headlining, then "There's no rules!" They certainly don't tell Ritchie Kotzen to turn down... National touring acts will deafen your ass in that club...

Another reaon I play 50 watters, and just had an 18 watter built...

Check yourselves with your rehearsal volumes, bands that rehearse at crazy cranked up volumes, are often dissapointed when they get to a club, and hear, "That's as loud as your gonna get to play here..."

my amp is about 90-95 db at my listening position treble and bass volume on 2 with a hotplate at -8 on the dry cab
i have played my peacemaker on 5, hotplate bypassed, when our 2500 sest church was empty and it was louder than any major concert guitarist have ever played here over the last 8 years.
next was a guy with an ac30 on about 7, and next was a splawn quick rod on about 3-4.

i have been constantly tweaking my live sound for 17 years and ill probably retire from playing before i ever become totally content.

 

[racerevlon]

No issues with the amps low end. VH4 was surgical. It was just that I couldn't turn it up to the sweet spot. Talk attenuators for live to me..anyone?

I've used ROCKMAN Power Soak attenuators for the last 15+ years. Never had a single problem in function or tone.

That said, when we play Paladino's I'll use the same rig I used for Universal Bar & Grill: Jet City JCA22H + JCA24S 2X12. Thing is, with that rig I run the normal channel around 8 and the Overdrive channel around 7 to get over the drums, and it's still plenty loud.

 

[supersonic]

Its been a while since I played out in a regular band and not sitting in but I always would turn my 4x12 cab backwards and have a 2x12 cab on a stand pointing right at me. That way I could hear WTF, if I were playing out today I would use in ears and mix it myself from the stage.

I use mouded IEMs' for vox but I can't stand the sound of guitar in them. Although if I move out off line my vocal mic picks up my guitar for more volume when needed.
Looking at the op pictures and how close he is standing to his amp I can't help but think an angled quad would work much much better. You need to be standing at least 12 feet away to hear a straight cab on the floor IMO. When I was using a straight cab I had trouble hearing it and my ankles went deaf.

 

[Greg Riley]

Bonamassa 101 = Plexiglass shield.. But he also sends a Palmer level out. Tell the sound guy you need a direct for acoustic for the Palmer, and mike it to

 

[stratotone]

One of the many reasons I'm loving my Kemper setup. I run that through a monitor angled up at me, can have it so loud that it's cracking the sky in two and since it's pointed at me it doesn't cause issues with onstage volumes. I give our sound guy the direct outs, BAM I'm done. I don't touch the direct outs I give FOH, and I can still tweak my volume of my monitor.

I love tube amps but you'd be amazed how good an axe II or a kemper sounds live. I'd put the live tone I get now against anything I've had in the past, and I've had some pretty badass rigs.

Pete

 

[Random Hero]

This is gonna sound harsh but until you reach a certain level, you have to suck this up. It's generally the way it is. Sound guys are often clueless and the sound on stage is usually not great. You can either invest more money in monitoring for yourself, be it IEMs or some form of wedge in front of you so you can bask in your tone or you can deal with it and do the best you can.

That said, it sounds like you guys did a good job considering the circumstances and at the end of the day that is all that matters. If you sounded huge and tight with considerable handicaps then it'll be even better when you can hear yourselves!

One thing I will say though, is I think you're gonna have to get over the idea that you need to get the amp to a certain volume level to get 'your tone'. I know we all feel this way but the reality is, the sound guy only gives a fuck about the FOH mix being the best it can (to his ear, whatever that means to this particular sound guy!). He isn't gonna let you crank the shit out of a 100w amp into a 4x12 if it's overpowering everything from where he's standing and he wants to keep the stage volume as low as possible. I kinda hate compromising on where I think my amp should be too, volume wise, but it's usually better for the FOH mix.

Maybe consider a 2x12 so that for one, you can drive it harder and secondly not make the sound man think you're the guy that wants to just totally crank it in a small club. I'm not for a second saying you are but like it or not, that seems to be the general idea when they see a guy roll in a 4x12!

 

[steve_k]

When I was using a straight cab I had trouble hearing it and my ankles went deaf.

pulling the ice picks out?



Good thread, BTW. Experiences with this stuff can be horrible. Sharing them and making improvements is great....

 

[Lublin]

This may sound dick, but it's the only thing that comes to mind regarding this situation and the majority of the musical situations I've experienced along the way:

Welcome to music. Enjoy your stay.

 

[spanny]

There are a lot of asshole sound guys. Look at it from their perspective; 98% they have to do sound for are probably awful, so they are jaded. On the flip side, you will encounter that as best as you can. Whenever I have a sound guy like that who is keeping me too low (when I use my VH4, I like it around 10/11:00), I just gradually turn it up during the first couple songs. He never notices.

Maybe also look into getting one of those cab wedges you can stick out by you in cases where you cant hear yourself at all.