How will a modeler sound on my tube power amp on low volume?

Matt300ZXT

Matt300ZXT

Well-known member
From my understanding, most people say the better tube tone comes from the power section working harder than the preamp section, however, the preamp is going to be a computer basically.

I've been burning the midnight oil on how to get the sound out of this amp, the Helix (probably the rack), that I've settled on. Do I run it through a Headrush "frfr" cab, which I've seen enough people say that it's not the best sound that it's got me second guessing whether I should even use a powered monitor. I don't think I can justify buying a Friedman or Laney frfr cab either, though, and on the fence about a Fender/EVH powered cab.

So that leaves me with a few options:

1: Running it through either my Budda Superdrive, Morris XSIII, or Landry Lexi. Any of those I'd have to attenuate the shit out of to keep from having the cops called by my old neighbors, and the Morris does NOT like my Rockcrusher anyway. And that sort of takes the fun away, while defeating the purpose of the Helix...jam at home with lots of cool sounds at a manageable volume, and still be able to take over the world when playing live when I can crank an amp. Plus, a half stack just takes up so much space because of the overall size.

2: Get a Seymour Duncan Powerstage pedal poweramp....or just be a man and get the 700 watt one that can be rackmounted and just run it into a 2x12 Budda cab I've got...less clutter and space taken up compared to a halfstack. Or buy a Palmer Macht 402 rackmountable stereo poweramp. One is bridgeable, while the other one won't hurt it if you're only using 1 side, so that would be an option. Also, either option would make transporting the rack a LOT easier.

3: Just hook the Helix into either my Peavey Classic 60/60 or Marshall Dual Monobloc 9200 and then I'm not spending money on another poweramp or powered monitor. This is where I'm curious if the "you gotta crank the power section" will really apply here. Obviously, I can't blast 200 watts of Marshall tube fury in my house with the neighbors around at a decent volume. Will it still sound decent through a cab if I just barely turn up the power amp enough to get a manageable volume and fine tune it from the Helix? I'm pretty sure that's what I did before with either my MP1 or JMP1 I used to have, but I also didn't have old neighbors, plus the neighbors across the street had a rock band, so they wouldn't have minded anyways.
 
Your Peavey Classic 60/60 should work great. I prefer something linear so that it doesn't color the tone too much. I've tried a bunch of options for running a modeler into a 4x12 and I've found that a Class AB solid state amp works best for me. YMMV.
 
Are you only using it at home? If so a good pair of studio monitors. Power amps and guitar cabs just clutter up the equation and don't translate the models as well. That's my experience anyway from using the Helix and AXE both live and at home.
 
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tallcoolone said:
Are you only using it at home? If so a good pair of studio monitors. Power amps and guitar cabs just clutter up the equation and don't translate the models as well. That's my experience anyway from using the Helix and AXE both live and at home.
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I talked to a buddy of mine I used to work at GC with who was in pro audio. He's a rep for multiple audio companies and just suggested a Bose powered monitor and told me the studio monitors won't sound as good. He feels they're a bit cumbersome to use and best for recording, however, I'll just be sitting my ass down here in my chair at my computer as I jam over backing tracks off of YouTube or whatever for the most part anyway.
 
You absolutely do NOT have to crank a tube power section into clipping for it to sound good. That is a myth perpetuated by geriatric tan pants blues dads who have never played a tube amp made after 1982 and have zero understanding of gain staging or how anything actually works inside an amp.

People say this because cranking a tube power section does two basic things, it gives you more distortion and rounds off the top end. Super old amps with almost no preamp gain and weedy, spikey sounding highs can benefit from these effects, but almost any modern high gain amp's voicing happens almost entirely in the preamp with a highly effective EQ section, and the poweramp mostly just works like a hi-fi stereo, where all it needs to do is simply amplify the preamp. Sure a tube amp will put a basic stamp of unique responsiveness and EQ curve on the sound depending on things like tube type and negative feedback circuit design, but that will happen at any volume and is not the same thing as having to crank it.

When I record most of the high gain stuff I do, I go through a reactive load which means I can set the amp's volume to whatever sounds best without having to worry about volume. After I set all my high gain amps (Wizards, Bogners, Mesas), I notice that just about every time, the blue LED of the reactive load just barely pops on for an instant at the very hardest hits or most resonant palm mutes. That translates to maybe "kinda having to talk loud to hear over it somtimes" volume levels. With 100+ watt amps, that's not even in the same ballpark as "cranked." but instead more like "barely on." And that's usuaslly where it sounds best to me because I like guitars with big wide bandwidth. Lots of highs and lows.

I think the idea that "you gotta crank it to sound good, man" is very rock and roll and people want it to be true because of the whole fuck yeah rebellious rock attitude thing. Also, cranking stuff is great fun, but with modern high gain tones, the fun comes from the physical volume itself, not from the poweramp being pushed.

tl:dr - you don't have to crank the power section of a modern tube amp if the preamp is voiced how you want it to sound. Cranking is a bandaid that can help with amps that don't have enough gain, or are too weedy in the highs.
 
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Get the myth of “pushing the power section” out of your head when it comes to high gain tones. I can only assume that’s what you’re after since you are here on rig talk. If you aren’t after higher gain tones then that ( could be, not necessarily though ) is a different discussion.

The power amp of most high gain amps is meant to be as clean as possible, as most of the tone in modern high gain ( since the 80s essentially) is coming from the preamp. This is one reason the 5150 is biased so cold, or why the Diezel Herbert has a 180 watt power section; it’s because these amps are meant to be able to get super loud while still remaining tight, focused, and not falling apart. Which, is the antithesis of what a power amp does when it DOES distort. As a power amp distorts it generally becomes more rolled off in the high end, much less low end, and a lot more midrange focused : this isn’t at all what most people are looking for in modern high gain tones.

As far as power amp choices, that 9200
Should be just fine, or the 60/60. They will be much more “colored” than something like a VHT power amp or something like a matrix , but it’ll sound great regardless. Go with something super high powered and let the helix be your “ color” and model the amps you like. Meaning, if you like the model of a plexi on 10, which is essentially straight power amp distortion, then let the helix impart that characteristic and keep the power amp as clean as possible to impart the least amount of color possible and allow that tone to be amplified at high volumes for stage work. I’d stay away from using those plexi style amps as your power amp section personally, unless they are 100 watts or so ( the Landry might be, can’t remember)That’s my advice.
 
VESmedic said:
Get the myth of “pushing the power section” out of your head when it comes to high gain tones. I can only assume that’s what you’re after since you are here on rig talk. If you aren’t after higher gain tones then that ( could be, not necessarily though ) is a different discussion.

The power amp of most high gain amps is meant to be as clean as possible, as most of the tone in modern high gain ( since the 80s essentially) is coming from the preamp. This is one reason the 5150 is biased so cold, or why the Diezel Herbert has a 180 watt power section; it’s because these amps are meant to be able to get super loud while still remaining tight, focused, and not falling apart. Which, is the antithesis of what a power amp does when it DOES distort. As a power amp distorts it generally becomes more rolled off in the high end, much less low end, and a lot more midrange focused : this isn’t at all what most people are looking for in modern high gain tones.

As far as power amp choices, that 9200
Should be just fine, or the 60/60. They will be much more “colored” than something like a VHT power amp or something like a matrix , but it’ll sound great regardless. Go with something super high powered and let the helix be your “ color” and model the amps you like. Meaning, if you like the model of a plexi on 10, which is essentially straight power amp distortion, then let the helix impart that characteristic and keep the power amp as clean as possible to impart the least amount of color possible and allow that tone to be amplified at high volumes for stage work. I’d stay away from using those plexi style amps as your power amp section personally, unless they are 100 watts or so ( the Landry might be, can’t remember)That’s my advice.
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The Landry is 100, but if I can get a good sound out of either poweramp in the rack, and the Helix will be in the rack, then I may as well just take the rack and a couple cabs for a bit of stereo effect and leave the heads at home. These poor heads are never gonna see use again lol

Thanks for the clarification guys, I never knew that's how modern rock amps were built/designed. Not like I'll be getting an original Plexi/JTM45 anytime soon so I doubt I'll ever need to crank the hell out of the power section then.
 
Matt300ZXT said:
I talked to a buddy of mine I used to work at GC with who was in pro audio. He's a rep for multiple audio companies and just suggested a Bose powered monitor and told me the studio monitors won't sound as good. He feels they're a bit cumbersome to use and best for recording, however, I'll just be sitting my ass down here in my chair at my computer as I jam over backing tracks off of YouTube or whatever for the most part anyway.
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Is he a guitar player with experience with modeling? If you are going to be sitting in your computer chair I can’t see how near field monitors aren’t the best solution. That’s what Cliff uses to dial in tones on the AXE—a powered monitor is a necessity if you are gigging with the unit of course but for home only you will be paying for power you will never use. And unless you drop big coin on 2 of those Bose units you lose stereo
 
tallcoolone said:
Is he a guitar player with experience with modeling? If you are going to be sitting in your computer chair I can’t see how near field monitors aren’t the best solution. That’s what Cliff uses to dial in tones on the AXE—a powered monitor is a necessity if you are gigging with the unit of course but for home only you will be paying for power you will never use. And unless you drop big coin on 2 of those Bose units you lose stereo
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Any monitor recommendations? I just have cheap Sampson Revolvs I bought a few years ago cheap just to have something louder for jamming on my amps over backing tracks.
 
Matt300ZXT said:
Any monitor recommendations? I just have cheap Sampson Revolvs I bought a few years ago cheap just to have something louder for jamming on my amps over backing tracks.
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I guess that was my issue with your buddy’s advice—I mean there are monitors that cost $75/pair and then there are some that run $5k+/each. He’s painting with a pretty broad brush by saying near fields “won’t sound as good” as a small PA. Won’t sound as loud maybe?

I’ve been running Rockit8s on my desk for about a decade. And they have been powered up for that long—I never turn them off. I’ve heard good things about the Yamaha HS8s as well. I believe Cliff at least used to use Adam H7Vs
 
I run a modeler into a power station and into a guitar 2x12 open back cab sometimes. Sounds pretty good. Anything cleanish should do. Just experiment and don’t spend $ up front. You probably have something already that will do the job
 
Honestly pretty good......

I used to use a POD XT Bean with a Crate Vintage Club 50 and just went straight into the fx loop........ pretty much just used the Crate for power and a lot of the sounds were damn good. With todays stuff I imagine even better results especially with Cab Sims now too vs back then.

Obviously the louder the better but at low to moderate volume your really getting the best of both worlds simply using a multi fx into a power section of an amp IME. Its just simple, straightforward and just works and plenty of great sounds to be had combining both the digital and tube stuff.
 
I disagree with a lot of this thread. Modern amps sound ok at low volumes, but better with the master around halfway up. They are designed with a power section for a reason. The power amp adds to the sound. It isnt just for rock guys.

Rock guys crank their amps higher than that to get power amp distortion. A lot of modern amps are designed for the power amp to stay "clean" at higher volumes, such as my MGL. It stays tight all the way up. But you really just need to get around halfway for the power amp to add to the sound so you dont just have a preamp only sound.

I Used to play with preamp only, and you can get a good sound for sure, but it isnt the same and you definitely dont get the feel which is what a lot of us want for the experience. I have recorded at low volumes and it is sterile and easy. There is no fight. I personally like the pushback
 
If you are playing at home sitting at your computer then monitors are the way to go. I would recommend getting an interface, daw and studio monitors. You will be the happiest running it this way especially if you are playing along to tracks. This way all of the sound will come from the same source.

I use the Axefx 3 that way at home. I also play in a band and when I do that I use a poweramp and cab but I wouldn’t use that at home. When Im practicing it’s just not as convenient to use the poweramp and cab , it’s harder to balance the volume if I’m playing along to something. It’s a lot better to just plug my axefx into the interface.
 
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