FRFR for Digital Modelers

rsm

rsm

Well-known member
I have a Helix Floor, it has a global EQ which I set to shelve/cut lows below 80 Hz and highs above 8 kHz. It sounds much better in my FRFR rig (pair of 2-way powered 10", and a 12" powered sub). It sounds good with or without the sub.

I recently got a Fractal FM9 Mk II Turbo, and did similar with the global EQ. Still sounded muffled; I bypassed the sub, it improved a bit. This was just going through the factory presets. Finally I created a simple amp + cab patch, and went into the Cab block>Preamp>Filters and cut the highs and lows - sounded much better; this is like a global shelving EQ on the output of the cab...there are several EQ locations, Global, Amp and Cab which can get convoluted, confusing and inconsistent IMO.

Going back the the Fractal FM9 factory presets, it still sounds like it's muffled / distant vs the simple patch I created with just amp + cab, with the Cab block filter shelving lows and highs.

Even though my FRFR works great with my Helix, and now after I applied the shelving filter to the cab in my simple test patch, I ordered a pair of smaller (8") FRFR with much less low end in the frequency range.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I shouldn't have to mess with high/low cut filters in factory presets when I have my FM9 set to use power amp modeling, cab/IR and FRFR. IMO. The Global EQ should be sufficient to cut the lows and highs I don't want.

I know modelers can sound like an amp in the room by using a tube power section and guitar cabs, but that loses half of what I want from a modeler: power amp, speaker, cab, mic placement control.

What are you doing to remove the lows and highs outside of the electric guitar normal frequency range (82 Hz to 5 kHz). I'm not trying to tighten the low end yet, I'm trying to eliminate the mud.
 
It's been a while since I messed with an FRFR, but I found this. Not sure it helps.

 
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roodboy said:
make your cuts in the cab block
or try dyna cabs
Click to expand...
Yes, I cut in the cab block in my test patch...it fixes the muffled / distant sound I hear in the factory presets.

unfortunately, the factory presets don't do this, and have default range of 20 Hz to 20 kHz which does nothing, and they sound muffled / distant.

My incoming new FRFR cabs don't go so low in the frequency range, hope they sound better...I planned to get a pair of smaller FRFR cabs anyway; not the ones I ordered since I wanted to use them with keys and bass, and wanted a lower range...so these will be for guitar only use.
 
rsm said:
Maybe I'm missing something, but I shouldn't have to mess with high/low cut filters in factory presets when I have my FM9 set to use power amp modeling, cab/IR and FRFR. IMO. The Global EQ should be sufficient to cut the lows and highs I don't want.
Click to expand...

You absolutely should want to mess with high and low cut after amps and cabs, just like you would with an analog setup. Fractal models everything, warts and all. You have to treat your chain just like you would treat real gear. Real amps and cabs, contrary to what The Gear Page will tell you, a lot of the time needs post tweaking to really get it where you want it.

Another thing, make sure you find IRs you like. Spend AT LEAST as much time getting the IRs right as you do the amp. I can just about count on one hand the number of IR's I've ever encountered that I legitimately love. The vast majority of IRs I've heard I don't like at all. It just takes time.

Think like a producer, not some mojo obsessed guitar player who believes in miracle gear that will do everything for you. Gear doesn't work like that. Every element in the chain is a single ingredient in the meal, no matter how expensive or nice any specific ingredient might be, and none of it is perfect. Don't be afraid to add anything you think you need to get the sound right. If you get there with three EQ's in series, then do it. Any other mindset amounts to artificially limiting yourself. Don't artificially limit yourself. :)
 
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@TheGreatGreen thanks, I hear ya...

using the filter in the Cab block made a huge difference in my test patch...I'd like to hear the Factory presets to see how they're configured, how they sound, etc., but having to tweak each one to add low/high cut is just tedious IMO.

In the Helix, I just set the global EQ, and the factory patches sounded "normal" as expected for a full "recorded / FOH" processed sound...the FM9 not so much.

Going to play with my other music toys until the new FRFR cabs are delivered before messing with the FM9 again. I may try using the parametric EQ option for the Global EQ on the FM9, it may provide better control over the frequencies I want to cut.
 
you can also mess with slope
having right ir helps
I am a big fan of the york audio
they have a $1 mesa 2x12 you can try
when playing in house with atomic clrs I dont even low cut hi cut
 
rsm said:
@TheGreatGreen thanks, I hear ya...

using the filter in the Cab block made a huge difference in my test patch...I'd like to hear the Factory presets to see how they're configured, how they sound, etc., but having to tweak each one to add low/high cut is just tedious IMO.

In the Helix, I just set the global EQ, and the factory patches sounded "normal" as expected for a full "recorded / FOH" processed sound...the FM9 not so much.

Going to play with my other music toys until the new FRFR cabs are delivered before messing with the FM9 again. I may try using the parametric EQ option for the Global EQ on the FM9, it may provide better control over the frequencies I want to cut.
Click to expand...

Honestly, the best thing I can recommend is for anybody using Fractal stuff, or any modeling stuff really, is to ignore factory presets altogether and instead, make your own global template patch that includes your favorite cab blocks and tweaks, effects, etc. Or maybe a couple of template patches, each one containing a group of IR's you like for whatever kind of sounds you like (couple of closed back 4x12 cab IR's for heavy stuff, maybe some open back IR's for clean patches, etc). From there, every time you want to test an amp, load up a template patch and dial up that amp. That way you have your favorite cabs and cab settings ready to go. If you like the sound you get, save that patch and you're good!

Also it might be a good idea to make a backup template patch as well and save it next to your regular template patch, just in case you accidentally save over your template. Definitely not speaking from my own dumb experiences there btw, ahem.


Or, for another suggestion if you really want to test drive factory presets, use the Output 1 (or whichever Output you use) global EQ to make your adjustments for every patch.
 
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TheGreatGreen said:
Honestly, the best thing I can recommend is for anybody using Fractal stuff, or any modeling stuff really, is to ignore factory presets altogether and instead, make your own global template patch that includes your favorite cab blocks and tweaks, effects, etc. Or maybe a couple of template patches, each one containing a group of IR's you like for whatever kind of sounds you like (couple of closed back 4x12 cab IR's for heavy stuff, maybe some open back IR's for clean patches, etc). From there, every time you want to test an amp, load up a template patch and dial up that amp. That way you have your favorite cabs and cab settings ready to go. If you like the sound you get, save that patch and you're good!

Also it might be a good idea to make a backup template patch as well and save it next to your regular template patch, just in case you accidentally save over your template. Definitely not speaking from my own dumb experiences there btw, ahem.


Or, for another suggestion if you really want to test drive factory presets, use the Output 1 (or whichever Output you use) global EQ to make your adjustments for every patch.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

As I posted, I used the Global EQ, it didn't seem help much on the FM9 factory presets; next try I plan to switch from the graphic EQ to parametric EQ on Output 1; I'm using balanced XLR cables to my powered FRFR cabs.

I do the same - using the global EQ to cut lows and highs - on my Helix, and the Helix factory presets sound good / fine; not muffled or distant like the FM9.
 
rsm said:
Thanks.

As I posted, I used the Global EQ, it didn't seem help much on the FM9 factory presets; next try I plan to switch from the graphic EQ to parametric EQ on Output 1; I'm using balanced XLR cables to my powered FRFR cabs.

I do the same - using the global EQ to cut lows and highs - on my Helix, and the Helix factory presets sound good / fine; not muffled or distant like the FM9.
Click to expand...

Yep swapping to the Parametric EQ makes a lot of difference. Definitely give that a shot.
 
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TheGreatGreen said:
Another thing, make sure you find IRs you like. Spend AT LEAST as much time getting the IRs right as you do the amp. I can just about count on one hand the number of IR's I've ever encountered that I legitimately love. The vast majority of IRs I've heard I don't like at all. It just takes time.

:)
Click to expand...

Today I was messing around with the Cabinetron plugin, and it took me about 5 minutes to realize I have been using extreme EQ settings to counteract the IRs I typically used that came stock in the units. Already had to buy it.

Buying some IRs instead of relying on the ones that come stock, and now in this plugin mixing them together, with some EQ applied directly to the IR sound, definitely is making it so I need less extreme EQ fiddling with the actual amp model.
 
Shask said:
Today I was messing around with the Cabinetron plugin, and it took me about 5 minutes to realize I have been using extreme EQ settings to counteract the IRs I typically used that came stock in the units. Already had to buy it.

Buying some IRs instead of relying on the ones that come stock, and now in this plugin mixing them together, with some EQ applied directly to the IR sound, definitely is making it so I need less extreme EQ fiddling with the actual amp model.
Click to expand...
Yeah it’s nuts the difference that having a set of IR’s you love can make. Without them, you spend a lot of tweaking time trying to dial in a tone that’s “good enough,” but with IR’s you love, everything just starts out sounding pretty good which means you can focus your tweaking on dialing for exactly what you want instead of for compensation and correction.
 
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TheGreatGreen said:
Yeah it’s nuts the difference that having a set of IR’s you love can make. Without them, you spend a lot of tweaking time trying to dial in a tone that’s “good enough,” but with IR’s you love, everything just starts out sounding pretty good which means you can focus your tweaking on dialing for exactly what you want instead of for compensation and correction.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I almost always found the IRs so mid heavy and fizzy. Once I tried finding more non-V30 IRs, it made me realize how many other speakers sound better, and that almost all of the stock IRs in the Fractal are V30 based.

I am liking some G12T-75 or G12K-100 IRs with a bit of mid scooping in the right places. That is helping me use less extra EQ after the amp blocks. I am looking forward to making some custom IRs that just work for me.
 
Best I’ve heard are the JBL EON powered PA speakers. Light 1500 watt area. Sound amazing.
 
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I always recommend Yamaha for best-bang-for-buck FRFR cabs, FWIMBW.

The fact that Yamaha gear's tough-as-nails "don't hurt any" either.
 
rsm said:
I have a Helix Floor, it has a global EQ which I set to shelve/cut lows below 80 Hz and highs above 8 kHz. It sounds much better in my FRFR rig (pair of 2-way powered 10", and a 12" powered sub). It sounds good with or without the sub.

I recently got a Fractal FM9 Mk II Turbo, and did similar with the global EQ. Still sounded muffled; I bypassed the sub, it improved a bit. This was just going through the factory presets. Finally I created a simple amp + cab patch, and went into the Cab block>Preamp>Filters and cut the highs and lows - sounded much better; this is like a global shelving EQ on the output of the cab...there are several EQ locations, Global, Amp and Cab which can get convoluted, confusing and inconsistent IMO.

Going back the the Fractal FM9 factory presets, it still sounds like it's muffled / distant vs the simple patch I created with just amp + cab, with the Cab block filter shelving lows and highs.

Even though my FRFR works great with my Helix, and now after I applied the shelving filter to the cab in my simple test patch, I ordered a pair of smaller (8") FRFR with much less low end in the frequency range.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I shouldn't have to mess with high/low cut filters in factory presets when I have my FM9 set to use power amp modeling, cab/IR and FRFR. IMO. The Global EQ should be sufficient to cut the lows and highs I don't want.

I know modelers can sound like an amp in the room by using a tube power section and guitar cabs, but that loses half of what I want from a modeler: power amp, speaker, cab, mic placement control.

What are you doing to remove the lows and highs outside of the electric guitar normal frequency range (82 Hz to 5 kHz). I'm not trying to tighten the low end yet, I'm trying to eliminate the mud.
Click to expand...
I don't know man, something else is going on. Most of the factory presets sound decent into monitors or headphones with adjustments of gain to taste.
Was this a used unit? You might want to reset it or check that there aren't any global parameters tweaked.
 
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