G
FourT6and2
Well-known member
Since you're an "engineer" who's probably on the spectrum, I'll put it into terms you can understand:
The IEEPA reciprocal tariff for electronic parts from china is 10%. That's not a straw man, that's a verifiable fact. Metro uses SoZo capacitors, which is an American company that used to make their products in the USA, but moved production oversees. Most likely China or Taiwan. You're accusing me of doing exactly what you are doing—40% tariffs from Brazil? Nobody but you is buying capacitors from Brazil. And not every conversation is about you.
A typical Marshall clone that Metro sells contains maybe 13 signal caps. The average retail price for 500v SoZo caps is $4.30 here in the USA, POST TARIFF. That's a RETAIL price of $55.90 per amp. If they're made in China, that's an increase of $5 over what they used to be. Bulk wholesale is even less.
Five dollars.
I'll say it again. Five dollars.
Metro isn't using some bespoke component from Brazil. And if they're going broke because of a $5 increase per amp on caps, that they should be passing along to the consumer... And of course all the other parts probably have small increases as well. Can probably assume a ~10% increase in costs across the board. If you want to get specific, you can look up IEEPA Tariffs on all the countries you think they're getting parts from. The E.U. is 15% cap.
Resistors? Genereic 1/2W carbon film resistors are PENNIES.
The most expensive thing in an amp is iron.
But Brazil? Come on dude. This isn't about you.
The REAL reason Metro isn't getting orders is because nobody needs another $4,000 Marshall kit/clone. And the target market for these kinds of amps is getting smaller and smaller as people enter hospice. Metro's product line is too specialized to survive long term. Look at all the other companies that offer Marshall clones/kits. They've all branched out to offer other products and services: cabs, parts, other amps, services, etc. Metro offered like 3 Marshall kits and two (?) of their own semi-unique designs? They were in trouble long before "tariff" ever entered the popular lexicon.
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glpg80
Well-known member
It’s not what they are now that matters, it’s what got him in the hole to meet his demands for product at a loss that did him in. Earlier in the year we saw steep hikes reaching 84% and even 125% on Chinese goods before the November agreements.
It’s not an American company if they don’t produce the goods in America. They’re imported and subject to tariffs. Made in America, Assembled in America, and Designed in America all mean different things. See my first comment.
I’m not the one claiming tariffs have been a flat 10% for all imported components of all companies for the last year, you are so you can stop with that non sense Mike. I don’t control the tariffs and I don’t control where companies choose to make their products. I buy what is necessary to sound good which is highly subjective.
George doesn’t build metro clones. His amps have a lot more going on than that. Having owned a metroplex myself I know first hand.
I never said he did. He purchased SoZo caps that were subject to tariffs much higher than the current 10% and likely had supply and demand problems as well.
You also asked me what I bought that was from Brazil. I need capacitors that fit certain criteria. Suppliers add percentages onto purchase costs on a per component basis. Anyone can back track the percentage with the country of origin on their own to find where they’re manufactured. It’s not rocket science.
I don’t place generic carbon film resistors in my circuit designs, but if that’s what you like to do, then by all means have at it.
glpg80
Well-known member
For every finger that you point at someone else, there’s always three fingers pointing back. I’ll let this quote stand on its own.
Merry Christmas
FourT6and2
Well-known member
Tariffs fluctuated here and there over the course of a few months. I doubt the domestic supply of resistors and caps went to zero before Metro could stock up. As they said... they only took in 5-10 orders TOTAL in that time. Not enough to cause their margins to disappear.
They are an American company whose products are manufactured oversees. And yes, their products are subject to tariffs because of this. What are you arguing? We are saying the same thing here.
Cool! Neither am I. Seems like you might want to work on developing some social IQ and learn context clues. You know... stop being so literal and start reading between the lines.
Again.... this isn't about you. I'm pointing out that Metro isn't closing down solely because of IEEPA tariffs. In fact, George said as much. They've been in trouble long before any of this.
Again, not about you. Their core business is and has been Marshall clones. 10000 series, 12000 series, Master Volume models, and kits. The Metroplex is a relatively recent addition and it clearly wasn't enough to keep them afloat. They also ghost-built amps for other companies.
Again, not about you.
Again, not about you.
And for the record, because YOU brought it up. I use PRP resistors which is an American company whose products are manufactured in the USA.
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FourT6and2
Well-known member
For every finger that you point at someone else, there’s always three fingers pointing back. I’ll let this quote stand on its own.
Merry Christmas
Look at the pattern here. You think everything is about you. I'm talking about Metro and part costs. And somehow, you've made it about you and your FX loop design? Weird. You gonna throw shade my way with "girl math" comments, I'm gonna throw it right back at you.
angelspade
Well-known member
On a macro level, The Wall Street Journal published an article on December 23rd regarding the trajectory of the US Economy and reported on the true impact of the Tariff program as implemented by the current administration. Below is an excerpt specific to Tariffs:
"In early April, after Trump announced his “Liberation Day” tariffs on an enormous swath of imports, stock and bond markets reeled. Economists surveyed by The Wall Street Journal raised their estimated probability of a recession over the next 12 months to 45%, from 22% in January.
Goldman Sachs raised the odds of recession twice this spring, and JP Morgan’s Jamie Dimon warned at the time that Trump’s trade policies would “slow down growth.”
Almost everyone got Trump’s tariffs wrong—though the most dire predictions were made before he backed off his most extreme policies. Instead of recession, the U.S. economy expanded in somewhat unexpected ways. The growth didn’t come from a boom in manufacturing, as Trump had promised, but rather from consumers at the top emboldened by a record-breaking stock market boom, and the build-out of data centers that adds up to about $41 billion annually.
The U.S. economy did contract in the first quarter, but that result was distorted by a rush of imports as companies sought to stockpile goods ahead of tariffs. Still, consumer spending, the main engine of the U.S. economy, remained solid.
Economic growth then rebounded in the second quarter, again fueled by consumer spending. Warnings about an interruption in shipping traffic from China leading to bare store shelves and surging prices never came to pass. That’s partly because Trump eased tariffs on some goods, and because importers found loopholes and workarounds to avoid them."
As you can see the actual economic truth is a bit of a "mixed-bag" as these dramatic policy changes often are. That said, the perilous consequences that were predicted by many have not come to pass and it appears that (at this stage at least) the tariffs may equate to a net positive in terms of overall impact on the US economy. As a Libertarian, I am certainly not here to promote Trump or his policies but statements regarding the dramatic decrease in affordability are not wholly accurate.
"In early April, after Trump announced his “Liberation Day” tariffs on an enormous swath of imports, stock and bond markets reeled. Economists surveyed by The Wall Street Journal raised their estimated probability of a recession over the next 12 months to 45%, from 22% in January.
Goldman Sachs raised the odds of recession twice this spring, and JP Morgan’s Jamie Dimon warned at the time that Trump’s trade policies would “slow down growth.”
Almost everyone got Trump’s tariffs wrong—though the most dire predictions were made before he backed off his most extreme policies. Instead of recession, the U.S. economy expanded in somewhat unexpected ways. The growth didn’t come from a boom in manufacturing, as Trump had promised, but rather from consumers at the top emboldened by a record-breaking stock market boom, and the build-out of data centers that adds up to about $41 billion annually.
The U.S. economy did contract in the first quarter, but that result was distorted by a rush of imports as companies sought to stockpile goods ahead of tariffs. Still, consumer spending, the main engine of the U.S. economy, remained solid.
Economic growth then rebounded in the second quarter, again fueled by consumer spending. Warnings about an interruption in shipping traffic from China leading to bare store shelves and surging prices never came to pass. That’s partly because Trump eased tariffs on some goods, and because importers found loopholes and workarounds to avoid them."
As you can see the actual economic truth is a bit of a "mixed-bag" as these dramatic policy changes often are. That said, the perilous consequences that were predicted by many have not come to pass and it appears that (at this stage at least) the tariffs may equate to a net positive in terms of overall impact on the US economy. As a Libertarian, I am certainly not here to promote Trump or his policies but statements regarding the dramatic decrease in affordability are not wholly accurate.
G
Geo
Well-known member
Trump is not the person coming up with these ideas and policies.
It's Navarro and Bessent, both really smart people and have been Democrats most of their lives, just Like Trump.
We have to get away from this Dem/GOP shit and just judge by results.
Trump has another 3 years, we can all judge the job he did when that time comes.
It's Navarro and Bessent, both really smart people and have been Democrats most of their lives, just Like Trump.
We have to get away from this Dem/GOP shit and just judge by results.
Trump has another 3 years, we can all judge the job he did when that time comes.
glpg80
Well-known member
I’m allowed to make comments on tariffs on a post talking about the demise of a company due to tariffs. This isn’t about me - it’s about tariffs. If you feel so little as to attack me directly then I suggest you look in the mirror and realize this isn’t about you NOT being affected my tariffs.
BABMusic
Well-known member
By the time they officially call this a "recession" it will be so ridiculously obvious that even the DEI professor will see it. I mean, we've really been in a bad economy prior to Covid and all that stimulus and pauses on debt repayment are the only reasons why it looked like things were booming in 2021. Well, that and the 0 percent FFR we had then too. But my point is, we live in a really fucked up time where the government wants to do everything possible to avoid a "recession" and in doing so, they create something much worse.
G
Geo
Well-known member
They will just change the definition of recession again like they did when ol' cabbage brains was behind the resolute desk.
We need to just go back to the gold standard and start over.
glpg80
Well-known member
If they fluctuated, then why use recent 10% values which add nothing to the topic of the real demise of his business which devolved over many years? You then claim tariffs weren’t the only thing involved which he stated in the first place? Talk about circular logic.
George’s business is his business and he’s in financial hell which I can only sympathize with. I only speak to validate his reasoning that tariffs do impact the bottom line of businesses. It’s his life’s work - he knows about it.
That tariffs were mentioned in one of many reasons to the demise of his company. You claim 10% China tariffs aren’t enough to warrant any damage on their own when you completely miss that It’s the wild fluctuations that cause significant impact to bottom lines.
I validated tariffs suck ass, questioned your reasoning of using current tariff values, then you started attacking me for it by asking what I buy.
Using girl math to belittle a company’s reason for having to shutter their doors, on Christmas of all days, is next level narcissistic and assholish and I’m all about calling you on it especially as you start attacking me as well.
It’s not about you. remember?
FourT6and2
Well-known member
Ignore list time. Long time coming.
And YOU opened the door for my comment about PRP with your BS about me using generic carbon film resistors when it was perfectly clear I was talking about the components Metro offers with their kits and builds—the implication being that you don't need to source generic carbon films from an exotic supplier or manufacturer. They are generic components that cost pennies. But you are unable to clearly follow a conversation unless things are spelled out literally. Goodbye.
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RedPlated
Well-known member
I don’t know of any parts being sold with a 10% tariffs. That’s not reality. I buy parts by the 100’s, sometimes 200’s. I have 40 sets of Heyboer transformers, PT’s, OT’s, chokes on my shelf right now. I buy A LOT of components and spend a lot of money on them. For someone like me, a “few pennies” adds up real fast with bulk orders.
Heyboers have gone up too, by the way.
You’re making it seem like it’s easy to just get all the amp parts from the US. It’s not. Go to Mouser and see how many of the parts you need come from the US. Basically none.
Here’s a perfect example of the tariffs that some think aren’t a big deal. They’re not, until you’re the one having to deal with paying them.
These are resistors I use daily. I buy many values, 100 at a time. The tariff is 47%. I don’t know where the 10% is coming from. Maybe I’m missing something but this is my reality of ordering parts.
This is just one example. Capacitors, relays, pots, switches, they all have similar additional costs. Bottom line is, anyone depending on making a living in this game is 100% affected by these additional costs. Not mention, everything else in life you must pay for, utilities, food etc…is increasing as well. Which makes what you need to earn to maintain the same quality of life even higher. It’s not JUST those resistors that cost a few pennies.
I’m extremely grateful that I have income separate from my amp business, so that I don’t have to rely on it to live or pay my bills. But I can’t imagine the stress of having to meet a specific sales number, with the added burden of tariffs and rising costs, and it being the only source of income, as it is for a lot of other amp builders.
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FourT6and2
Well-known member
No, I know they're mostly made oversees. I'm saying I don't think Metro is closing shop solely because of tariffs. And Metro themselves said that. I don't think the cost increase of raw components in a typical Marshall clone have gone up to the point where it's putting a company that builds maybe 10-20 amps a year out of business. Do rising costs contribute? Sure. Is it the proximate cause of a failing business in this context? I don't believe so. They've been struggling for a long time, unfortunately. Not only that, but those costs should be passed on to the consumer.
I don't know what product you're actually showing here but Mouser can not and does not apply tariffs on goods. U.S. Customs and Border Patrol does.
The IEEPA Reciprocal tariff on Chinese goods is 10%. Taiwan is 20%. The E.U. is 15% cap. That is the law. It is up to the importer (you) to supply Customs with the correct Harmonized Tariff Code and country of manufacture. I import stuff all the time and I've caught shippers and shipping companies making mistakes on paperwork that would have cost me a lot of money had I not caught it and corrected it.
What specific product are you showing here with a 47% tariff? What is the country of manufacture?
If your supplier (Mouser, for example) is charging you a 47% markup for this particular good and claiming it's from tariffs, I would 100% reach out to them and find out the details. Because it's possible you're being overcharged if you aren't actually paying US Customs directly.
If you're buying resistors made in China, tariffs are 10%.
If you're buying resistors made in Taiwan, tariffs are 20%
If you're buying resistors made in Japan, tariffs are 15%
Here is a link to the current tariff amounts. I don't see 47% listed anywhere...
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presiden...urther-modifying-the-reciprocal-tariff-rates/
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DanTravis62
Moderator
The money isn't in "musicians" LOL
It's in youtubers, hobbyists, and gear collectors who play the same EVH riffs and "bleed" (for when theyre feeling HARDCORE!) all day every day
Musicians can't afford any of this shit
RedPlated
Well-known member
Here’s a direct link to the product. The entire line has the same 47% tariff. Vishay PRO2’s.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/PR02000201501JA100?qs=ClR5yMXwuUfr6Tco/POgzg==
I’m confused what you’re saying about paying the tariffs. Anything you order from Mouser, Digikey, etc…have mandatory tariff charges added to the order. There’s no way for me to pay it separately on my own.
The tariffs range but they are typically at least 25% up to around 50% depending on the component.
I just ordered Bourns push/ pull pots from Digikey and paid $78 alone for tariff charges. The parts were $390, so around 20% on those. Lower end of the spectrum. But that’s $80 out of my pocket for absolutely nothing in return. Just an additional tax on an American business person. I pay enough business taxes already.
CBP may be in charge of tariffs, but these retailers are collecting the tariffs and forwarding them to the government. There’s no option for me to purchase the items without a tariff and pay it directly to CBP some other way.
FourT6and2
Well-known member
Those resistors are manufactured in Germany and The Czech Republic. Both countries are part of the European Union. IEEPA Reciprocal tariffs for goods from the E.U. have a maximum cap of 15%. That means the most US Customs and Border Patrol can change is 15%. Hard stop. Period.
If Mouser is charging you 47%, that's on them. That's not tariffs. I would reach out to them and ask why they're doing this.
The Harmonized Tariff Code for resistors is HTS 8533.21 or 8533.29.
If you buy these resistors from a supplier in Europe, for example, US Customs would charge you 15%. If you're buying them from Mouser and they're charging you 47%... something else is going on.
Same thing as above. If you buy parts from a supplier oversees and import them yourself—i.e. you have them shipped to you via FedEx or DHL or UPS— you supply US Customs with the appropriate HTS code and country of origin for the parts. And you pay the tariffs directly to US Customs.
FourT6and2
Well-known member
@RedPlated btw, I just added those resistors to my cart and checked out. It does show a $7 tariff, which is 47%. If it were me, I would call Mouser and inquire how they're getting 47% when the products come from the E.U. which have a cap of 15% (the base duty and reciprocal tariffs do not stack).
Most likely, Mouser is adding in additional fees to cover their operating costs and expenses as "importer". Brokerage fees, insurance, paperwork, and a little bit more on top for extra profit. They're free to do that. But again, Mouser does not charge tariffs. Only the US government can do that.
So if they're insistent on profiting from people and blaming tariffs, I would simply stop doing business with them. I would buy from Arrow or Distrelec in Europe and have everything shipped directly to me and pay the actual tariff amounts.
There's a reason why there are many class action lawsuits against businesses for overcharging tariffs and profiting the difference...
Most likely, Mouser is adding in additional fees to cover their operating costs and expenses as "importer". Brokerage fees, insurance, paperwork, and a little bit more on top for extra profit. They're free to do that. But again, Mouser does not charge tariffs. Only the US government can do that.
So if they're insistent on profiting from people and blaming tariffs, I would simply stop doing business with them. I would buy from Arrow or Distrelec in Europe and have everything shipped directly to me and pay the actual tariff amounts.
There's a reason why there are many class action lawsuits against businesses for overcharging tariffs and profiting the difference...
glpg80
Well-known member
For the umpteenth time George sold valvestorm decades ago to concentrate on his own custom amp line business which just shuttered. The metro kits are not George’s amplifiers. George himself didn’t use carbon films all of the time in Metropolous Amplifiers and varied them based on location in the circuit.
You’re delusional if you think carbon films costing pennies has any merit to the level of talent you’re arguing with right now. It’s childish of you to even think only carbon film resistors exist to everyone else but you and it’s the supplier that makes all of the difference to the bottom line in buying bulk. They just pass the tariff costs on just as you said they should.
You can’t make money buying singles and packs of 10. That bulk quantity helps a ton in keeping margins in check especially designing amps from scratch where every part has to be accounted for. When you have 40%+ tariffs being added to your purchase orders of any quantity it most definitely eats directly into the bottom line. You can’t pass those costs onto the consumer if you expect anyone to place an order.
