Modellers vs loud Tube amps

[Smash]

I have never liked an attenuator for a high gain amp. But if you were playing a non master volume, or a clean amp, I could definitely see it.
For me, a well designed high gain amp mostly does it's thing at about noon on the master. This is about the volume I want to play at anyway. I have cranked my master on the various amps I had over the years, and I will get maybe 5-7 more decibels, but at that volume, it isn't really that huge of a jump. Most of the high gain amps don't stay together at fully cranked. My current amp doesn't oversaturate, so the master works well if I am trying to keep up with 100 watters.

 

[CoreyW]

100% Yes real amps are worth the hassle.

But is it?

Let me preface this a little... I have a gold horse klon, I have a few klones, I can hear a difference and have picked my klon in multiple "blind" tests, in the room.. I am not sure I could have the same level of success trying that with a processed and recorded blind test. The klones are more than good enough to do the klon thing that I feel comfortable enough taking those out of my "studio" instead of my actual klon.

I was saying that because I understand feel difference and the sound difference, I personally believe no modeler will capture an "amp in the room" vibe of an amp, unless you are using it is a MFX unit and sending it through a power amp and cab.. nothing can replicate that moving air and the spl change that a cabinet does, without moving the air around you.. but, just like amps... modelers can sound better with volume than they do at low volume. Unlike amps, however... a modeler can still sound fantastic at very low volume.

I can carry my FM3 in a backpack and a guitar in each hand and make a single trip in and out of any place and have it fit in a small car, and have a rig that could play pretty much anywhere that would have a PA. Its going to be very consistent room to room, amps dont have that convience, hell my entire rig is easier to carry than a single guitar and a fender deluxe, and I have all the sounds any of us would ever need.


Here is a cover I did with just my FM3, the guitar is single tracked, no plugins on anything and was quickly thrown together with levels quickly set, so its not mixed. The FM3 I used a single stock preset. Backing track was found on Lick Library.

 

[Shask]

But is it?

Let me preface this a little... I have a gold horse klon, I have a few klones, I can hear a difference and have picked my klon in multiple "blind" tests, in the room.. I am not sure I could have the same level of success trying that with a processed and recorded blind test. The klones are more than good enough to do the klon thing that I feel comfortable enough taking those out of my "studio" instead of my actual klon.

I was saying that because I understand feel difference and the sound difference, I personally believe no modeler will capture an "amp in the room" vibe of an amp, unless you are using it is a MFX unit and sending it through a power amp and cab.. nothing can replicate that moving air and the spl change that a cabinet does, without moving the air around you.. but, just like amps... modelers can sound better with volume than they do at low volume. Unlike amps, however... a modeler can still sound fantastic at very low volume.

I can carry my FM3 in a backpack and a guitar in each hand and make a single trip in and out of any place and have it fit in a small car, and have a rig that could play pretty much anywhere that would have a PA. Its going to be very consistent room to room, amps dont have that convience, hell my entire rig is easier to carry than a single guitar and a fender deluxe, and I have all the sounds any of us would ever need.


Here is a cover I did with just my FM3, the guitar is single tracked, no plugins on anything and was quickly thrown together with levels quickly set, so its not mixed. The FM3 I used a single stock preset. Backing track was found on Lick Library.

I think this situation is where capture devices like ToneX or Quad Cortex really shine. You can basically make a capture of your actual rig and have a pocket-sized version of it. You dont have to try to simulate it with a modeler.

Personally, just playing in my room I can always tell the feel difference of my FM3 into a poweramp and cab vs the tube amps, but the ToneX in the same situation is VERY hard to notice any difference.

 

[Tone Monster]

I logically understand that modelers serve a purpose and have come a LONG way. BUT. Fuck that shit. Tubes and IRs are tits. SO GOOD.

 

[Tone Monster]

But is it?

Let me preface this a little... I have a gold horse klon, I have a few klones, I can hear a difference and have picked my klon in multiple "blind" tests, in the room.. I am not sure I could have the same level of success trying that with a processed and recorded blind test. The klones are more than good enough to do the klon thing that I feel comfortable enough taking those out of my "studio" instead of my actual klon.

I was saying that because I understand feel difference and the sound difference, I personally believe no modeler will capture an "amp in the room" vibe of an amp, unless you are using it is a MFX unit and sending it through a power amp and cab.. nothing can replicate that moving air and the spl change that a cabinet does, without moving the air around you.. but, just like amps... modelers can sound better with volume than they do at low volume. Unlike amps, however... a modeler can still sound fantastic at very low volume.

I can carry my FM3 in a backpack and a guitar in each hand and make a single trip in and out of any place and have it fit in a small car, and have a rig that could play pretty much anywhere that would have a PA. Its going to be very consistent room to room, amps dont have that convience, hell my entire rig is easier to carry than a single guitar and a fender deluxe, and I have all the sounds any of us would ever need.


Here is a cover I did with just my FM3, the guitar is single tracked, no plugins on anything and was quickly thrown together with levels quickly set, so its not mixed. The FM3 I used a single stock preset. Backing track was found on Lick Library.

Sounds great for that track/mix. That is an inherently thin tone you were going for. IMO modelers suck when going for the thick meaty full spectrum tones. They fall apart/lose body.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

But is it?

Let me preface this a little... I have a gold horse klon, I have a few klones, I can hear a difference and have picked my klon in multiple "blind" tests, in the room.. I am not sure I could have the same level of success trying that with a processed and recorded blind test. The klones are more than good enough to do the klon thing that I feel comfortable enough taking those out of my "studio" instead of my actual klon.

I was saying that because I understand feel difference and the sound difference, I personally believe no modeler will capture an "amp in the room" vibe of an amp, unless you are using it is a MFX unit and sending it through a power amp and cab.. nothing can replicate that moving air and the spl change that a cabinet does, without moving the air around you.. but, just like amps... modelers can sound better with volume than they do at low volume. Unlike amps, however... a modeler can still sound fantastic at very low volume.

I can carry my FM3 in a backpack and a guitar in each hand and make a single trip in and out of any place and have it fit in a small car, and have a rig that could play pretty much anywhere that would have a PA. Its going to be very consistent room to room, amps dont have that convience, hell my entire rig is easier to carry than a single guitar and a fender deluxe, and I have all the sounds any of us would ever need.


Here is a cover I did with just my FM3, the guitar is single tracked, no plugins on anything and was quickly thrown together with levels quickly set, so its not mixed. The FM3 I used a single stock preset. Backing track was found on Lick Library.

We already covered it. Yes tube amps are 100% worth the hassle. No need to try and rationalize modelers.

 

[itsme]

Modelers are useful for recording and…

…hmmm, I guess that’s it

 

[DanTravis62]

But is it?

I can carry my FM3 in a backpack and a guitar in each hand and make a single trip in and out of any place and have it fit in a small car, and have a rig that could play pretty much anywhere that would have a PA. Its going to be very consistent room to room, amps dont have that convience, hell my entire rig is easier to carry than a single guitar and a fender deluxe, and I have all the sounds any of us would ever need.

You can certainly carry that rig really easily,

but unless you have a massive live sound reinforcement system supporting your fm3, as well as subwoofers, mixing engineers, and a large enough room

its not going to sound anywhere near as good as the large tube amps

 

[DanTravis62]

You gonna count all the shit you need to take tp make your modeler sound good as stuff you have to carry?

 

[Zado]

Never seen a poll so one-sided

 

[Smash]

Never seen a poll so one-sided

Rig-talk has spoken

 

[japetus]

You gonna count all the shit you need to take tp make your modeler sound good as stuff you have to carry?

All I need is these two hands and the will to thrill baby, WOOOO!!!!!

 

[romanianreaper]

You gonna count all the shit you need to take tp make your modeler sound good as stuff you have to carry?

Yeah, see that is the thing. After 15 years of not being in a band, I found myself gigging again a few years ago. I'm sure some folks can grab a small modeller and be happy. I'm too paranoid. I'd have to have a backup modeller. Then I have to have a cab or monitor to hear myself, especially if the sound man has crappy speakers.

For me, I'm going to have to haul a fair amount of gear because I always fear something is going to break. At the end of the day, modelling is awesome and convenient but knowing me, I'd hit a button 5 minutes before showtime that would put the modeller in standby or something and have to figure it out, lol.

 

[DanTravis62]

Yeah, see that is the thing. After 15 years of not being in a band, I found myself gigging again a few years ago. I'm sure some folks can grab a small modeller and be happy. I'm too paranoid. I'd have to have a backup modeller. Then I have to have a cab or monitor to hear myself, especially if the sound man has crappy speakers.

For me, I'm going to have to haul a fair amount of gear because I always fear something is going to break. At the end of the day, modelling is awesome and convenient but knowing me, I'd hit a button 5 minutes before showtime that would put the modeller in standby or something and have to figure it out, lol.

its not even YOUR gear or backups that is the issue

it's that you need a dedicated sound engineer, subs, multiple monitors, mains, and the time to set it all up, and THEN your modeler will sound as good as a tube amp

Good luck getting that treatment at your average club gig

 

[DanTravis62]

Because a modeler into your "my first PA" busking setup is not going to sound good

 

[Smash]

But is it?

Let me preface this a little... I have a gold horse klon, I have a few klones, I can hear a difference and have picked my klon in multiple "blind" tests, in the room.. I am not sure I could have the same level of success trying that with a processed and recorded blind test. The klones are more than good enough to do the klon thing that I feel comfortable enough taking those out of my "studio" instead of my actual klon.

I was saying that because I understand feel difference and the sound difference, I personally believe no modeler will capture an "amp in the room" vibe of an amp, unless you are using it is a MFX unit and sending it through a power amp and cab.. nothing can replicate that moving air and the spl change that a cabinet does, without moving the air around you.. but, just like amps... modelers can sound better with volume than they do at low volume. Unlike amps, however... a modeler can still sound fantastic at very low volume.

I can carry my FM3 in a backpack and a guitar in each hand and make a single trip in and out of any place and have it fit in a small car, and have a rig that could play pretty much anywhere that would have a PA. Its going to be very consistent room to room, amps dont have that convience, hell my entire rig is easier to carry than a single guitar and a fender deluxe, and I have all the sounds any of us would ever need.


Here is a cover I did with just my FM3, the guitar is single tracked, no plugins on anything and was quickly thrown together with levels quickly set, so its not mixed. The FM3 I used a single stock preset. Backing track was found on Lick Library.

Sounds good. Yeah. I think we covered the convenience factor.

I am just wondering if anyone PREFERS playing a modeller, not because of convenience or consistency.

It is like mcdonalds. They are extremely convenient and consistent all accross the US. But i love a nice juicy steak fresh off my charcoal grill.

 

[7704A]

I'd have to have a backup modeller.

I think that's what the touring acts do.

I'd hit a button 5 minutes before showtime that would put the modeller in standby or something and have to figure it out, lol.

Saw that happen before. Or more accurately, heard wild sounds coming out of it until it was debugged before the next song.

 

[CoreyW]

You gonna count all the shit you need to take tp make your modeler sound good as stuff you have to carry?

Im not counting it in what you would need if you ran an amp, the entire band is going to need the PA.

You can certainly carry that rig really easily,

but unless you have a massive live sound reinforcement system supporting your fm3, as well as subwoofers, mixing engineers, and a large enough room

its not going to sound anywhere near as good as the large tube amps

I would argue that that would be the area a modeler would shine over a tube amp. A modeler running direct FoH to a pair of powered mains would balance the sound out a hell of a lot better than a 4x12 beaming a hole through the center of the crowd. In my past experiences, you need a lot better of a PA to fight over the beaming cabinets, than having everything coming through the same PA speakers. I do not miss the days of only the vocals running through the mains, and the guitar sounding great in only a small section of the room that the cab is pointing to.

Sounds good. Yeah. I think we covered the convenience factor.

I am just wondering if anyone PREFERS playing a modeller, not because of convenience or consistency.

It is like mcdonalds. They are extremely convenient and consistent all accross the US. But i love a nice juicy steak fresh off my charcoal grill.

I moved from speakers to digital load boxes about 10 years ago. Largely due to convenience. I have been use to listening to my guitars through monitors rather than cabinets for a while.

My biggest focus on how I set up my little home studio is work flow, I want to be able to sit down and play, right now.. I can power up everything, pick a guitar, and snag the cable sitting on the floor and im ready to play in about 2 minutes. I could do that with an amp, if I already had the amp plugged in and routed correctly. I could just run it through a cabinet.. but lets face it.. who really enjoys playing through a Plexi at a volume that you wife could tolerate just a couple of rooms away, or a 15 watt amp for that matter. Im sorry but if I can still hear my string noise on the guitar while playing with an amp, I am not getting any benefit from playing from the amp.

I have yet to find an amp that is truly inspiring to play at 85db. I have found heaps of presets that are inspiring to play at 85db or below.

I am not disputing that a 100 watt amp pushing 100,105,110+ db is not a borderline spiritual experience, but the reality is.. even with a 1959HW sitting on a 4x12 just a few feet away from me.. the opportunity to run it that loud is so few and far between, that I sometimes wonder why I even hang on to it.

Personally I prefer my modelers, but I can't rule out that the convenience isn't a deciding factor. These are not the days of the old digitech RP7, or even the line 6 HD500, the tech has gotten so good, that quality of the audio isn't a concern for most.

 

[romanianreaper]

its not even YOUR gear or backups that is the issue

it's that you need a dedicated sound engineer, subs, multiple monitors, mains, and the time to set it all up, and THEN your modeler will sound as good as a tube amp

Good luck getting that treatment at your average club gig

My last gig about a week ago, I was playing by muscle memory for the first song. So i'm singing and looking at my hand and just going by where it should be. Meanwhile, my bass player apparently had a 747 jet engine for his backline and was ripping my skin off with sound.

 

[Smash]

I have yet to find an amp that is truly inspiring to play at 85db. I have found heaps of presets that are inspiring to play at 85db or below.

I am not disputing that a 100 watt amp pushing 100,105,110+ db is not a borderline spiritual experience.

I agree completely. I do not play at 85 dbs. Again, this isn't the argument.

I play my tube amp at 112 dbs. If the wife makes enough noise for me to hear her over the amp...well that is why the backhand was invented.

I would argue that if you are playing 85 dbs in a modeller or a tube amp, you will hear the pick hitting strings to be fair