NAD: Fortin Evil Pumpkin

[FourT6and2]

I find that very interesting, almost even exciting, because on the photos I have of the EP the transformers definitely don't have UK-made end bells...
... the transformers on the web page from Demeter Windings however have UK-made end bells.

Now I would be interested to know if Mike really switched to UK-made transformers at some point, or if he just got stickers or made them himself to give the impression that the EP was actually built in the UK, just as the print on the rear panel claims.

They look legit to me, but I don't know much about Demeter.

You probably haven't taken the chassis out of the head case yet to see if there are Chinese characters on the PCB?

I did pull the chassis, as I do with every amp I buy. I don't see any Chinese anywhere. Boards are fairly decent quality—black, double-sided, thru-plated. Some of the wiring could be routed better, but it's on par with most mass-produced amps. I would prefer chassis-mounted pots, jacks, and switches with flying leads though. But build quality is on par with other mass-produced, high-gain amps.

But can you post some good photos of the transformers here - or send them to me by PM - so that I can see where the problem is here.

Out of curiosity, I am almost inclined to call Keith from Demeter tomorrow and ask if he has ever made transformers for Fortin. In the past I had some emails and phone calls with him, but that was 20 years ago and it is therefore questionable whether he still remembers me?

 

[FourT6and2]

View attachment 429807

The RFT EL34 tubes with the smaller base were made by WF and the RFT EL34 with the larger base were made by Muhlhausen. Q

If you read deep into WW2 history the communists took the tube equipment and people making tubes moving them Eastward and opening tube factories. That's why there's so many similarities between the communist tube companies.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werk_für_Fernsehelektronik

"In 1945, the Soviet Military Administration in Germany established the Oberspree Laboratory, Design Bureau, and Experimental Plant (LKVO) as a scientific industrial enterprise in the premises of the former AEG tube factory. Within a year, this plant employed over 2,000 people. In 1946, 230 employees and their families were deported to the Soviet Union to establish a corresponding production line there. Also in 1946, the plant was transformed into a Soviet Joint-Stock Company (SAG) and renamed Oberspreewerk (OSW). In 1950, it merged with other companies and was renamed the Telecommunications Works . On May 1, 1952, Oberspreewerk became a state-owned enterprise (VEB). The production of germanium point-contact diodes began in 1957. [ 1 ] In connection with the establishment of German television broadcasting and the television sets needed for the population, a Japanese plant for the production of black and white picture tubes was put into operation in the factory halls in 1959."

The equipment for WF came from AEG, equipment for Erfurt Telefunken, Neuhaus and Mulhausen equipment came from Lorenz IIRC.

You'll also notice ZWLE (commonly labeled as Polam or Telam) and Tesla Vralabi have things in common with RFT too. Similar story. Communists.

I've not seen any RFT EL34 branded with those other labels. But I do have a bunch of RFT ECC83 with markings from those other companies.

 

[Smash]

They look legit to me, but I don't know much about Demeter.


I did pull the chassis, as I do with every amp I buy. I don't see any Chinese anywhere. Boards are fairly decent quality—black, double-sided, thru-plated. Some of the wiring could be routed better, but it's on par with most mass-produced amps. I would prefer chassis-mounted pots, jacks, and switches with flying leads though. But build quality is on par with other mass-produced, high-gain amps.



View attachment 429847

That looks beautiful, but I wonder what the gutshot looks like. Also the gut shot of the super hi. The super hi It is torret correct?

 

[dead-pan]

The Satan and Pumpkin are quite different.

Satan is very modern and the Pumpkin is more middy/vintage sounding.

 

[novosibir]

They look legit to me, but I don't know much about Demeter.


I did pull the chassis, as I do with every amp I buy. I don't see any Chinese anywhere. Boards are fairly decent quality—black, double-sided, thru-plated. Some of the wiring could be routed better, but it's on par with most mass-produced amps. I would prefer chassis-mounted pots, jacks, and switches with flying leads though. But build quality is on par with other mass-produced, high-gain amps.



View attachment 429847

Hmm, difficult to judge from the photo:

The stickers look legit, but they are so simple that every high school student could design them on his mobile phone and print them out himself via his bluetooth printer at home. In any case, there is no company logo to be seen on it.

In any case, the transformers installed are different from those Mike had installed on his first EP's of 2020.
Not only are the end bells now painted black in contrast to when they were zinc galvanized...
... but also their attachment to the iron core, which is now done with 4 screws and nylon bushings at the corners, but at that time only with two stronger screws each through the middle of the transformer longitudinal edge. See here:

The sheet metal used for the transformers is not the (black) M6X VM 111-35 that is common in higher quality amps, but the (gray) FeV 270-35 HA, which is considerably cheaper, but also has much higher magnetization losses than the M6X

I don't want to go into detail here what effects this has on the OT, otherwise someone will just insult me again that I want to badmouth an amp.
On the PT at least it leads to the fact that it gets much hotter in operation than with M6X and it has a higher voltage drop than with M6X under pulse-like high load (strong string stroke), which can be desirable with vintage amps, because it makes the sound soft and round, but with a metal amp it takes attack, tightness and dynamics.

When looking at the chassis from above (your photo) I see different types of screws. I see black Phillips-head screws, I see zinc galvanized Phillips-head screws and I even see zinc galvanized slotted screws, as they were standard until 50 years ago.

This confirms me in the assumption that this amp was delivered to the UK in individual components (from China?) and was only assembled there to form a complete amp, which according to the casual UK laws then allows the imprint "Handmade in the UK" on the amp's back.

But I wouldn't swear an oath to it

 

[Smash]

Hmm, difficult to judge from the photo:

The stickers look legit, but they are so simple that every high school student could design them on his mobile phone and print them out himself via his bluetooth printer at home. In any case, there is no company logo to be seen on it.

In any case, the transformers installed are different from those Mike had installed on his first EP's of 2020.
Not only are the end bells now painted black in contrast to when they were zinc galvanized...
... but also their attachment to the iron core, which is now done with 4 screws and nylon bushings at the corners, but at that time only with two stronger screws each through the middle of the transformer longitudinal edge. See here:


View attachment 429854


View attachment 429855


The sheet metal used for the transformers is not the (black) M6X VM 111-35 that is common in higher quality amps, but the (gray) FeV 270-35 HA, which is considerably cheaper, but also has much higher magnetization losses than the M6X

I don't want to go into detail here what effects this has on the OT, otherwise someone will just insult me again that I want to badmouth an amp.
On the PT at least it leads to the fact that it gets much hotter in operation than with M6X and it has a higher voltage drop than with M6X under pulse-like high load (strong string stroke), which can be desirable with vintage amps, because it makes the sound soft and round, but with a metal amp it takes attack, tightness and dynamics.

When looking at the chassis from above (your photo) I see different types of screws. I see black Phillips-head screws, I see zinc galvanized Phillips-head screws and I even see zinc galvanized slotted screws, as they were standard until 50 years ago.

This confirms me in the assumption that this amp was delivered to the UK in individual components (from China?) and was only assembled there to form a complete amp, which according to the casual UK laws then allows the imprint "Handmade in the UK" on the amp's back.

Now is not the time to throttle back the shit talk.

 

[FourT6and2]

The Satan and Pumpkin are quite different.

Satan is very modern and the Pumpkin is more middy/vintage sounding.

When I talk about amps, I talk about them from more of a technical perspective, not necessarily how they're voiced. I'm willing to bet there's a lot of overlap.

 

[novosibir]

Now is not the time to throttle back the shit talk.

Hugh, the chief has spoken

 

[FourT6and2]

That looks beautiful, but I wonder what the gutshot looks like. Also the gut shot of the super hi. The super hi It is torret correct?

Gut shot looks like any other PCB amp. Satan and Thrasher gut shots are on the net if you do a Google search. The EP looks like those, except the boards are black. The Hiwatt Super-Hi is a modified DR504 and looks like a typical Hiwatt DR504, hand-wired on a turret board.

 

[novosibir]

Gut shot looks like any other PCB amp. Satan and Thrasher gut shots are on the net if you do a Google search. The EP looks like those, except the boards are black.

This is the Satan, the Trasher has the same PCB, only some components are equipped differently:

 

[novosibir]

And this is the Satan chassis from top. IMO it doesn't look much different to the EP:

The same black painted end bells of the transformers with the same shape as on the chassis of the EP and also with the screws through the corners, but in this case without the Demeter Windings stickers on it.

EDIT: Well, there's a difference! In the transformers here the black M6X VM 111-35 sheet metal is used and the choke is bigger than the one of the EP.

 

[FourT6and2]

In any case, the transformers installed are different from those Mike had installed on his first EP's of 2020.
Not only are the end bells now painted black in contrast to when they were zinc galvanized...
... but also their attachment to the iron core, which is now done with 4 screws and nylon bushings at the corners, but at that time only with two stronger screws each through the middle of the transformer longitudinal edge. See here:

The end bells appear to be the same as the ones on Demeter's website. And there are a number of things different between the amp I have and the one you pictured. For example, the FX loop on mine is series with a send level + a tuner out, not the same as the one pictured with series or parallel returns. So obviously things were changed at some point.

The sheet metal used for the transformers is not the (black) M6X VM 111-35 that is common in higher quality amps, but the (gray) FeV 270-35 HA, which is considerably cheaper, but also has much higher magnetization losses than the M6X

I don't want to go into detail here what effects this has on the OT, otherwise someone will just insult me again that I want to badmouth an amp.
On the PT at least it leads to the fact that it gets much hotter in operation than with M6X and it has a higher voltage drop than with M6X under pulse-like high load (strong string stroke), which can be desirable with vintage amps, because it makes the sound soft and round, but with a metal amp it takes attack, tightness and dynamics.

Yeah, I generally prefer M6 when available. I don't know what these transformers are made of though. They don't seem to heat up at all. And as far as sound goes, I wouldn't call this amp soft lol. It's quite aggressive and tight.

This confirms me in the assumption that this amp was delivered to the UK in individual components (from China?) and was only assembled there to form a complete amp, which according to the casual UK laws then allows the imprint "Handmade in the UK" on the amp's back.

But I wouldn't swear an oath to it

The back simply says, "Made in the UK." I don't personally have a problem with a company getting pre-populated boards made elsewhere and then assembling the final product... that's just the way of the world. If the final product is good, it doesn't bother me. But I would want the retail price to reflect any cost savings.

But look... you gotta draw the line somewhere. Even high quality Beyschlag MBE0414 resistors are most likely made in Taiwan or India. Same goes for MKT1813 caps. They aren't handmade by artisans in a German bakery. They're mass produced on machines in Taiwan or Singapore or India. Same goes for the diodes and wire and transistors and all the other passive components everybody uses.

There's only one resistor company I can think of that doesn't outsource manufacturing or doesn't have manufacturing oversees: Precision Resistive Products, Inc. Their resistors are manufactured in the USA.

https://www.prpinc.com/

If we're talking PCBs, if the boards are quality, I don't care if a pick-and-pluck machine populates them and wave solders them in China, the UK, or the USA. It's all the same to me.

 

[Smash]

Gut shot looks like any other PCB amp. Satan and Thrasher gut shots are on the net if you do a Google search. The EP looks like those, except the boards are black. The Hiwatt Super-Hi is a modified DR504 and looks like a typical Hiwatt DR504, hand-wired on a turret board.

View attachment 429868

Dude. That is gorgeous. I loved playing that amp. I didnt buy it because i was on the fence with the price, but I would like to retry it at some point

 

[FourT6and2]

And this is the Satan chassis from top. IMO it doesn't look much different to the EP:


View attachment 429873


The same black painted end bells of the transformers with the same shape as on the chassis of the EP and also with the screws through the corners, but in this case without the Demeter Windings stickers on it.

EDIT: Well, there's a difference! In the transformers here the black M6X VM 111-35 sheet metal is used and the choke is bigger than the one of the EP.

The EP transformers aren't painted black quite like those. They're a gloss grey/anthracite color, just like the ones on Demeter's website. But I don't see how that matters.