New 5150?

[JerEvil]

Hey JerEvil, I spoke with him a couple days ago and I of course attacked him with questions, he just laughs and says “no comment”.
?
He’s such a good guy, such a kind hearted sincere gentleman?

Yeah man he’s a sweetheart!

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Were they? If I understand what he's talking about he means the change from a 1nF/470k treble peaker after the red channel first gain stage on the original 5150/6505 circuit to a straight 500pF on the II/+ variant and all of the EVH amps. This gives it that weird "choked" mid thing because it's high-passing a massive amount of low end/low mids out of the signal early on - it makes them really tight but loses a lot of richness.

EDIT: I should add, that and one other change (that has minimal sonic impact) are literally the only differences between the 5150 Mk1 and Mk2 red channel circuits.

Ah ok. If it's specific components in the circuit being discussed, then I honestly couldn't tell you about those.

However I do own a 5150 III 50w 6L6 head (which I have A/B'd with the 5150 III 100w) and a 5150 III 100w Stealth head, and from my experience the Stealth does sound a bit smoother in the mids overall and doesn't sound choked out, like there's a half-cocked wah in there or something.

Then again I primarily use EMG pickups with that amp, which themselves attenuate quite a bit of bass on their own, so maybe in my scenario I wouldn't notice how aggressive the high-pass filter was in these amps either way.

 

[Nolly]

Ah ok. If it's specific components in the circuit being discussed, then I honestly couldn't tell you about those.

However I do own a 5150 III 50w 6L6 head (which I have A/B'd with the 5150 III 100w) and a 5150 III 100w Stealth head, and from my experience the Stealth does sound a bit smoother in the mids overall and doesn't sound choked out, like there's a half-cocked wah in there or something.

Then again I primarily use EMG pickups with that amp, which themselves attenuate quite a bit of bass on their own, so maybe in my scenario I wouldn't notice how aggressive the high-pass filter was in these amps either way.

Gotcha. Are you using the Blue channel primarily? Because, believe it or not, the 6L6 50W and the 100W Stealth red channels are actually identical circuit-wise.
EDIT: The Stealth blue channel is a lot gainier and closer to the red channel in voicing though

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Gotcha. Are you using the Blue channel primarily? Because, believe it or not, the 6L6 50W and the 100W Stealth red channels are actually identical circuit-wise.
EDIT: The Stealth blue channel is a lot gainier and closer to the red channel in voicing though

With the 50w, yes I do use the Blue channel primarily, but boosted with a Boss GE-7. I boost the overall level of the Boss GE-7, just a flat boost. I find the channel saturates best that way, and retains its dynamics if you're good with your right hand and the volume knob. The Red channel is fun to play at home at low volumes because of how compressed it is, but that limits how expressive and clear it is at higher volumes. The Blue channel is definitely the winner of the 50w 6L6 in my opinion, boosted or not.

To your point I have also read that the 50w's Red and the original 100w 5150 III's Red channel are identical, as that was one of Eddie's specific requirements for a 50w version of the 5150 III. Also, I have A/B'd these two amps and can confirm that at non-poweramp-saturating volumes, and with use of the 50w's Depth control, the Red channels of these two amps can be made to sound and feel identical. I've done it.

However, comparing the Red channels of the 50w 6L6 with the Stealth 100w, the channels are not identical. The Stealth 100w's Red channel sounds better to my ears. I'm sorry to say I cannot explain exactly why. It just sounds "bigger" and clearer at the same time without losing saturation, regardless of the position of the Depth knobs. It is absolutely excellent and in my very humble opinion, the best pure high gain channel in the entire 5150 family.

As far as the Blue channels go, again you're correct that the 100w Stealth's Blue channel is actually not quite as tight as the 50w's Blue channel. Basically the 100w Stealth feels like it lets in just a bit more low end into the preamp. I think the Stealth's Blue channel feels just a bit more saturated overall than the 50w's Blue channel due to the increased low end allowed into the preamp gain stages. Boosting the Stealth's Blue channel with a Tubescreamer-esque or low-cutting EQ curve is where it's at here. However it's more compressed than the 50w's Blue channel. With the Stealth 100w, the boosted Blue and non-boosted Red channels are equally fantastic, but different flavors, for the modern high gain thing. Comparing the two amps' Blue channels, it's hard to put a finger on describing the difference between the two but if I had to come up with something, I'd say the 50w has more of a snarly, hotrodded 80's Marshall "guitar gunslinger" vibe to it, while the boosted Stealth 100w has more of a "standard" modern high gain vibe.

 

[skoora]

I used a 1st gen in the 90’s and it was great. Could not get into the II. It was tighter but the midrange wasn’t right. Started getting into that slight cocked wah territory. It’s a shame because having separate EQ’s and resonance controls was a good move. Plus I think the loop became switchable on the II, which I don’t think it was on the I. Would like to get another 1st Gen for nostalgic fun but not a priority if they go up too much in price. Got out of it in the 90’s because I missed the Marshall sound. But for plug in, no pedals needed, big heavy sound, chug for days the 5150 was unbeatable in the mid 90’s.

edit...just took a gander at some 1st gens Reverb, EBay and at $1000 and more that’s a hard no. Plus they weren’t even mint, had knobs missing etc. What a joke.

 

[marvcus]

Exactly. But if what these guys are saying is true, it sounds like a couple of component changes can move the mids on the II more to the mk1 category?

The prices are atrocious. I remember buying a 5150 1 head for $200 in the early 2000s...

 

[ClintN667]

I have to say Im excited to see what James Brown does with EVH. I'm not a fan of the 5153 really and much prefer the 5150/5150 ii. I think going back to the basics cosmetically and tonally then updating it a smidge would be fantastic..

I was thinking of getting another Peavey 6505 or + but I may just wait a bit now.

 

[Nolly]

With the 50w, yes I do use the Blue channel primarily, but boosted with a Boss GE-7. I boost the overall level of the Boss GE-7, just a flat boost. I find the channel saturates best that way, and retains its dynamics if you're good with your right hand and the volume knob. The Red channel is fun to play at home at low volumes because of how compressed it is, but that limits how expressive and clear it is at higher volumes. The Blue channel is definitely the winner of the 50w 6L6 in my opinion, boosted or not.

To your point I have also read that the 50w's Red and the original 100w 5150 III's Red channel are identical, as that was one of Eddie's specific requirements for a 50w version of the 5150 III. Also, I have A/B'd these two amps and can confirm that at non-poweramp-saturating volumes, and with use of the 50w's Depth control, the Red channels of these two amps can be made to sound and feel identical. I've done it.

However, comparing the Red channels of the 50w 6L6 with the Stealth 100w, the channels are not identical. The Stealth 100w's Red channel sounds better to my ears. I'm sorry to say I cannot explain exactly why. It just sounds "bigger" and clearer at the same time without losing saturation, regardless of the position of the Depth knobs. It is absolutely excellent and in my very humble opinion, the best pure high gain channel in the entire 5150 family.

As far as the Blue channels go, again you're correct that the 100w Stealth's Blue channel is actually not quite as tight as the 50w's Blue channel. Basically the 100w Stealth feels like it lets in just a bit more low end into the preamp. I think the Stealth's Blue channel feels just a bit more saturated overall than the 50w's Blue channel due to the increased low end allowed into the preamp gain stages. Boosting the Stealth's Blue channel with a Tubescreamer-esque or low-cutting EQ curve is where it's at here. However it's more compressed than the 50w's Blue channel. With the Stealth 100w, the boosted Blue and non-boosted Red channels are equally fantastic, but different flavors, for the modern high gain thing. Comparing the two amps' Blue channels, it's hard to put a finger on describing the difference between the two but if I had to come up with something, I'd say the 50w has more of a snarly, hotrodded 80's Marshall "guitar gunslinger" vibe to it, while the boosted Stealth 100w has more of a "standard" modern high gain vibe.

Interesting stuff, I would dare say that your findings with the 50W vs Stealth red channels must come down to the different power sections especially the size of the output tranny. Glad you found your sound in the Stealth!

Exactly. But if what these guys are saying is true, it sounds like a couple of component changes can move the mids on the II more to the mk1 category?

The prices are atrocious. I remember buying a 5150 1 head for $200 in the early 2000s...

Yep, literally just change two components and your 5150II/6505+ red channel will sound exactly like a 5150Mk1/6505. It's particularly that value right after the first gain stage that makes the difference. There is one other capacitor that is smaller on the II/+ but it's further downstream and has a very minimally audible effect (reducing the amount of low end between two later gain stages) - you'd not really need to change that to fix the "wonky mids" thing.
You can also swap that same component in any of the EVH 5150IIIs, though the rest of the circuit has more tweaks compared to the Peaveys so it won't feel or sound identical to those. Again, it'll fix the "wonky mids" though.

 

[Dino 939]

Do any of these variations matter when you're in a live band mix?
AVH puts so much bounce on it and the brotherly syncopation & groove is the magic.
Dime & Vinny.
The Chevelle dudes.
Malcolm & Angus.
The machines are machines not craft beer.

 

[gibson5413]

Interesting stuff, I would dare say that your findings with the 50W vs Stealth red channels must come down to the different power sections especially the size of the output tranny. Glad you found your sound in the Stealth!




Yep, literally just change two components and your 5150II/6505+ red channel will sound exactly like a 5150Mk1/6505. It's particularly that value right after the first gain stage that makes the difference. There is one other capacitor that is smaller on the II/+ but it's further downstream and has a very minimally audible effect (reducing the amount of low end between two later gain stages) - you'd not really need to change that to fix the "wonky mids" thing.
You can also swap that same component in any of the EVH 5150IIIs, though the rest of the circuit has more tweaks compared to the Peaveys so it won't feel or sound identical to those. Again, it'll fix the "wonky mids" though.

I swear I haven't seen you guys around here for a while (Nolly and TheGreatGreen). Nice seeing your contribution!

 

[SQUAREHEAD]

I swear I haven't seen you guys around here for a while (Nolly and TheGreatGreen). Nice seeing your contribution!

Hey Gibson brother! Happy new year! Nice to see original members around here… Hope you’re doing well!

 

[marvcus]

Do any of these variations matter when you're in a live band mix?
AVH puts so much bounce on it and the brotherly syncopation & groove is the magic.
Dime & Vinny.
The Chevelle dudes.
Malcolm & Angus.
The machines are machines not craft beer.

Ha, you can make that argument over anything. That’s what this whole gear thing is about, lol.

Coke and Diet Coke are drinks but I bet you’d rather have one over the other.

Same with wearing pants or capris. They both cover the goods, but I bet you’d probably prefer wearing one and not the other.

If you had to choose your voice from one that’s clear and strong or another that sounds like you have a stuffy nose all the time, which would you choose?

 

[311boogieman]

I'm a stuffy nosed capris wearing diet coke drinker myself

 

[311boogieman]

Still searching for that Pre Fender RCA Metal head with KT88s

Def pay $10K for that

(mid day drunk posting FTW

 

[gokart mozart]

With all of the nostalgia that the EVH guitar line has done over the years (the striped series, Shark, Circles, etc), I don’t get why Fender/EVH couldnt talk Ed into doing a throwback type amp as well: lower gain, EL34 power tubes, built in voltage dropping/Variac like the Suhr SL68 has, etc.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

With all of the nostalgia that the EVH guitar line has done over the years (the striped series, Shark, Circles, etc), I don’t get why Fender/EVH couldnt talk Ed into doing a throwback type amp as well: lower gain, EL34 power tubes, built in voltage dropping/Variac like the Suhr SL68 has, etc.

This is an interesting one. Of course all we can do is speculate, but first of all I think most of us would agree that if EVH collaborated with an amp maker and released a kind of "brown-sound-in-a-box" Plexi, it's tough to overstate how successful such a project might be. Imagine how hard and fast they would have flown off shelves everywhere they were stocked, probably for years. Like, we'd all get tired of hearing about another throwdown breaking out at a guitar store parking lot, just so the winner of the fight could get in line and be told sorry they just ran out of them, better luck next time, lol.

However, as much as Ed was loved for his original sounds, his whole "thing" was tinkering and innovating, looking forward to the technical horizon. "Vintage" anything always seemed like the last thing on his mind. Every time he did anything gear-wise, he was all about seeing how big and modern he could make his guitar sound... and then immediately after whatever it was he'd think of a way to push boundaries even harder. It seemed to be his entire philosophy.

I could see how nobody ever convinced Ed to take a big chunk of time and resources to devote to what he would see as "the past" when for him that time could be better spent working on putting out something "new."

I am seriously looking forward to the new 5150 amp though, as much for the amp itself as everything that will surround it. It will be interesting to see how people react to the first official EVH amp the man himself wasn't around to approve, and I'm looking forward to seeing what can be accomplished when you put the OG 5150-guru James Brown himself together with the guys at Fender.

Whatever happens it's sure to be entertaining.

 

[glpg80]

Cool. Hopefully it sounds better than the Stealth and all other EVH amps. I can’t stand the midrange in those amps.

Man I thought I was the only one. I don’t like the sound of any of the fender versions. They just sound anemic.

 

[SQUAREHEAD]

So...
No announcement on this yet?!
Thought they would have by now

 

[PurityS.L.G]

Yeah kind of disappointed. My guess is summer NAMM at this point. I don't think Wolfie would have teased it if it wasn't close on the horizon for release.

 

[crwnedblasphemy]

Exactly. But if what these guys are saying is true, it sounds like a couple of component changes can move the mids on the II more to the mk1 category?

The prices are atrocious. I remember buying a 5150 1 head for $200 in the early 2000s...

That's a deal....but okay...when I was living in twin cities in 1997, I went to a local shop and bought a new 5150 head for $585. That was awesome!