New member with tube question

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It's the historical method of testing, so much so Mesa bragged about every amp that went out the door receiving it before shipping.

My experience with GE JAN 5851's and NOS Mullard CV4004's is the exact opposite of number two.

The second two points I have no experience with, but if that's legit I wouldn't do business with them. I hate seeing that from a manufacturer.

Edit: I'm not sure if you are talking about hi-fi or musical instrument amplifiers? My experience is soley in guitar amps.
90% of valve problems are caused by people tapping them when hot.

There are more musical Jan’s and Mullards in those formats.

If stuff works for you then great. If you can explain exactly why, then even better. Your personal experience matters.
 
Please name one ECC83 valve that has the frequency flatness and harmonic integrity of a 161 Mullard.

Cheapo and badly made valves can produce good results. Whether they are consistent, and last more than 5 minutes is the sore point. Same with amps. There’s some shit out there. You might have a happy accident. Who knows. But you’re more likely to die in an electrically-induced house-fire, bless your hearts.
I have Quadrophenia in my collection. With a flat monitoring system, none of the instruments and sound effects are brash on that album. It is extremely well mixed. The cymbals in particular are balanced superbly. You can fully hear the lovely tones they produce. But they sound natural. My only gripe would be that you can obviously hear that Roger is singing in a vocal-booth. But nothing is fatiguing in that album’s entirety.

With my Mullards in the Sheriff amp, the frequency response is well balanced. Real bass, distinct lo-mids, slightly laid-back hi-mids, and that musical treble roll-off. Perfect for me. At will I can thump your guts out, or burst your eardrums with harmonic emphasis. Instead, I play within tighter boundaries, and aim for a larger than life overall sonic event. But it has to be organic, and that’s where the Mullard excels, as well as faithfully conveying my input, with no bias of its own.

We have to look at what is necessary to get our vision across. I know I can’t educate the world, I can leave a small mark maybe.
John Entwhistle was famous for sounding like a Jumbo jet taking off, yet name one album with that on it. There isn’t one. Instead you can hear all his notes.
Now, I could redo my crossovers, and have Keith Moon’s cymbals all over everything. But I’ve learned that hearing all the info without effort, is the most important aspect of good mixing and monitoring. My stuff, albeit modest, can track anything and translate it more than adequately.
My DAC is known for being laid-back, which opens up the image somehow. Nothing is ever forward, but the depth of field is huge. I love it.
Quite frankly, I could not envisage working with forward sounding brash valves in my amps. And to my ears, hi-mids is not where the real action is. So those crap valves are a joke.
I painstakingly assembled and tuned my system to be microscopically detailed around the crossover point. It took quite a while.
Bottom line is that, with valve amps, I am looking for a platform that will translate my inputs in a way pleasing to me response-wise - but also be flat enough to successfully post EQ if needed, and to sit it in my music correctly, even when multi-layered. Hook up a 12” speaker to my load-box, and it won’t be anything great - quite dull perhaps. But after being filtered, pre-amped in Class-A, compressed, and mildly EQ’d, it will sound glorious on my monitors, which is what I listen to when tracking. Even then, it is neutral enough to be easily manipulable when needed.
Like I said - no vices. Very helpful when recording.
As I also said, I had to train my ears (at 65!) to listen flat. The closer I got to the perfect curve on my gear , the more detail I was hearing. The final step was crossover treble-energy, which was two $5 resistors basically. But to clear up the crossover point, took 4 1m silver-composite signal cables, at $500 per metre - each!
Spend an afternoon playing your favourite music on my gear, and you’d understand soon enough. You’d be laughing at production flaws, and mixes trying too hard to engage the listener. Then put on King Crimson’s “Fracture”. One of the hardest pieces of music to convey for any gear. My stuff just translates it, no fuss. Job done I reckon.
Likewise, plug into my Sheriff and give it your best shot - it won’t mask anything, and it won’t flatter your playing. But it will respond perfectly to what you do.

Yes, the MC1 was never a contender for me anyway. I did also have a ‘59 transition valve, that was just a bit noisy. Shame. I only consider true ‘60-‘64 Blackburn production. Don’t want any derivatives. My valves are typically 1.8iA and 2.2Gm both sides- which is staggering. That’s my holy-grail.

Others might think a Friedman Arredondo with PSVanes to be their holy-grail (this week), and I can’t criticise that. But then, I won’t be mixing it will I.

Here’s the gear. I did say it was modest. But it’s the best £20,000 I ever spent, even just to hear “Greggary Peccary” once for real.
View attachment 453585

Currently out on a cell phone so its hard to respond in detail like I'd want to and I'm sorry if I miss something.

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Vacuum-Tube-Valley.htm

Issue one page fifteen for ECC83. Lots of other great tube information in that magazine too if you read through it.

I don't consider Blackburn to have a flat frequency response because of its mids; specifically upper mids. No matter what you do that distortion is present in that region. Pleasing to the ear but not flat. Might make your system as a whole flat but the tube by itself in isolation isn't.

From everything you've said I wish you'd revisit the long plate Mullards and try a Ken-Rad along with them. Even if you dont want to chase down another Mullard please get one Long Black Plate Ken-Rad: Carbon or pewter plate to go with the Mullards. Most likely you will find those two tubes together better than either one separately. You should also strongly consider trying CSF with Valvo.

You don't seem like the kind of person obsessed with neutrality and taking dynamics and harmonics to an extreme as a sport but more concerned with enjoying a musical experience. I enjoy both.

Most people enjoy an articulate sounding rig and it can be a challenge to have it across the entire frequency range. Important to have a well balanced system without peaks and valleys. I strongly agree with you about not having something that is fatiguing or irritating. Listening for a few songs and a few hours is very different.

I can use a Tungsram Tillburg for its attack in a boost pedal for high gain metal. I wouldn't use that with a Marshall for classic rock nor would I want that in a Fender. If you're really into piano music it has an attack that just seems right.

Never tried a Friedman myself but I hate Psvane. Im surprised their power tubes haven't taken out more amplifiers actually. I liked Psvane better when it was TJ. Apparently the children didn't want to inherit a tube business so Shuguang employees took it over.

I love Tannoys. You have a very nice rig!
 
Currently out on a cell phone so its hard to respond in detail like I'd want to and I'm sorry if I miss something.

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Vacuum-Tube-Valley.htm

Issue one page fifteen for ECC83. Lots of other great tube information in that magazine too if you read through it.

I don't consider Blackburn to have a flat frequency response because of its mids; specifically upper mids. No matter what you do that distortion is present in that region. Pleasing to the ear but not flat. Might make your system as a whole flat but the tube by itself in isolation isn't.

From everything you've said I wish you'd revisit the long plate Mullards and try a Ken-Rad along with them. Even if you dont want to chase down another Mullard please get one Long Black Plate Ken-Rad: Carbon or pewter plate to go with the Mullards. Most likely you will find those two tubes together better than either one separately. You should also strongly consider trying CSF with Valvo.

You don't seem like the kind of person obsessed with neutrality and taking dynamics and harmonics to an extreme as a sport but more concerned with enjoying a musical experience. I enjoy both.

Most people enjoy an articulate sounding rig and it can be a challenge to have it across the entire frequency range. Important to have a well balanced system without peaks and valleys. I strongly agree with you about not having something that is fatiguing or irritating. Listening for a few songs and a few hours is very different.

I can use a Tungsram Tillburg for its attack in a boost pedal for high gain metal. I wouldn't use that with a Marshall for classic rock nor would I want that in a Fender. If you're really into piano music it has an attack that just seems right.

Never tried a Friedman myself but I hate Psvane. Im surprised their power tubes haven't taken out more amplifiers actually. I liked Psvane better when it was TJ. Apparently the children didn't want to inherit a tube business so Shuguang employees took it over.

I love Tannoys. You have a very nice rig!
Now you got me wanting to mix the Mullards with Kenrads. Last time I did that, they worked against one another but I will try it again in a different application.
 
Now you got me wanting to mix the Mullards with Kenrads. Last time I did that, they worked against one another but I will try it again in a different application.

Must be carbon or pewter plate 12AX7. I'm not 100% on the shiny black plates one if its GE or Kenrad. Most GE tubes say 188-5 on then implying made at the Ken Rad facility but most GE tubes are not made there.

I try to use the next tubes strengths to cancel the weaknesses of the preceding tubes.
 
Edit: I'm not sure if you are talking about hi-fi or musical instrument amplifiers? My experience is soley in guitar amps.
Sorry, yeah. I’ll clarify.
I was the guy that always had the ‘loudness’ button on, and full treble, on my cheapie stereos. With the bass as high as it could stand without distorting too much.
Over the years, I got good at making a great ‘bedroom’ guitar sound, and also learned quick how to adjust for onstage stuff, once I joined a band.
Was a bit of a shock, when I first began doing demos of my own material at home. I didn’t have a clue how to mic a speaker up. Sort of managed ok though.
I eventually moved back to valve amps, and Palmer load-boxes arrived. My live sound became a hot amp, soaked down, effected, then re amplified with a power-amp. I’d been playing 25 years, and had retired from band stuff.
I’d blend load-box filtered signal with the unfiltered capture for live work, and for recording I’d simply use filtered signal only. At least that was the plan. I did some good stuff like this. A good but quite old amp, with very worn Mullards.

15 years later, I bought my Tannoys. This coincided with my trusty amp going dead. Oh great!
Went through lots of stuff, trying to find a workable amp, or any solution. Horrible time. I bought the Sheriff 44, and that was horrible through the load-box.
I was also struggling with a Windows PC and Cubase, and the Tannoys were always going to need more power than 40W.
Bought a used Budda SD45, which blew up and took out my load-box and power-amp. Jesus!
So, to cut the story a bit, I bought the Bryston power-amp for the Tannoys, with some great speaker cables. I also went over to using a MAC for Cubase.

My problem was male vocals from CD’s would sit too loud in the image. Plus, I wasn’t getting the detail I expected from the Tannoys. So I knew I’d be working on that pretty soon.
My house was flooded, and I had to relocate. Gear was thankfully ok, but almost killed me.
Once in the new place, I lessened tweeter energy, and that balanced those vocals. Not perfect, but better.
Well, I went on a huge learning-curve with the hi-fi monitor stuff.
Class A pre-amp, top quality DAC, over £3000 in cables, and the final minute tweaking of the treble energy.
Long process, but I really sussed it. No more fogginess, anywhere. Flat response. The final £600 purchase of better woofer cable, gave me clarity in the lo-mids at the crossover point - and I was done.
The realism and sheer authenticity is really great. Although I’d spent months away from it in the woods, just listening to nature. We are talking 10 years to finalise this system, and I didn’t play very much guitar.

Ok, the point I’m making is that, with my acquired knowledge, and my new ears - I could better pinpoint what was going on with this disappointing Sheriff amp, and my failed efforts to get a usable sound.
I took one look at the PM valves fitted, and discarded them. In went my GT12ax7-M’s. They were better, but the old ears were wiser now, and I could easily hear the hi-mid emphasis, and lack of lo-end cohesion.
Everything I heard on YouTube was the same. Just hi-mids everywhere. What the fuck is wrong with people? Can’t they hear this shit? That’s not how a Marshall should be. Why so much treble? Where’s the lo-mids?
Meanwhile, I was constantly discovering new stuff in all my old CD’s. Thought I knew Zappa inside out, but the crazy detail brought out some incredible minute events. So I knew that side was sorted. The latest M4 Mac Mini arrived, with a $300 USB cable straight to the Bryston DAC - so the digital side was fully sorted.
Which left one very sorry guitar amp in the corner.
That was when I decided to source the best Mullards I could get. I spent weeks learning all I could on constructions and the different models of ECC83. Over some months, the odd one would pop up on eBay, with monster specs, and I’d grab it. Meanwhile, I burnt in some new power tubes. XF2 Mullards first, but settled on cheaper real Svetlana’s.
Finally I was in a position to kit the pre-amp. I chose best current V1, best transconductance V2, decent all round V3, the V4 splitter was an incredibly specced and balanced example.
I can honestly say I had tears in my eyes. Firstly, the deep switch on the load-box was switched out. There was real bass here. I could pick out the lo-mids separately. Hi-mids were controlled and balanced. The treble was sublime and musical. A little tweaking of my channel strip, and I was away.
I even adjusted my pickups, for the first time in 30 years!
I was amazed at zero noise, and incredible response. Now I bought the shielded mains cables, Lava speaker cable. Star quad silver signal cables, all fully balanced - and a dedicated UPS for the analogue setup.
I finally heard my true spirit, coming at me from 300W professional monitors. Can’t describe the feeling after 10 years of doubt.

The upshot is - I don’t think I’d have got there without my fully delving into building that monitoring system. I don’t begrudge the time out, because I have a new set of ears. Without which, I couldn’t have properly evaluated my guitar stuff.
Obviously I really love gear man. But this was such a great journey.
I have to be careful to remind myself that others haven’t been on this journey, and any lecturing from me is meaningless to them. But I’d wish the good stuff on anyone - it’s way out there.

Don’t know if that helps anyone, but thanks for reading. I’m happy to share any knowledge, as are most here.
 
You don't seem like the kind of person obsessed with neutrality and taking dynamics and harmonics to an extreme as a sport but more concerned with enjoying a musical experience. I enjoy both.

Most people enjoy an articulate sounding rig and it can be a challenge to have it across the entire frequency range. Important to have a well balanced system without peaks and valleys. I strongly agree with you about not having something that is fatiguing or irritating. Listening for a few songs and a few hours is very different.

Never tried a Friedman myself but I hate Psvane. Im surprised their power tubes haven't taken out more amplifiers actually. I liked Psvane better when it was TJ. Apparently the children didn't want to inherit a tube business so Shuguang employees took it over.

I love Tannoys. You have a very nice rig!
Thanks. It’s an amazing setup. So laid back, it slowly draws you in, and you really are hearing what I think is the producer/artist’s intention.
I don’t like any gear now that is forward or in your face. That’s for kids.
In fact, it’s very difficult for me to sit down with a guitar combo, and get pleasure from what comes out. A cranked amp into a load-box, and into a combo - I can live with just about, so long as I can apply a little compression and post EQ.

PSVane will take untested $5 junk, add some molybdenum to the innards, gold-coat the pins, and sell it for $150.
Shuguang, Reflektor, JJ - all guilty of flooding seconds onto the market. JJ even paying people to use them in their products.

I’ve a Seymour Duncan 100W Convertible head I rebuilt recently. That too has Mullards of high-spec.
I also have a Victory Baron combo with high-spec Mullards. An upstairs practice amp, with a few racks on it’s loop.
I bought a Convertible 100W combo, and that did not like Mullards at all. It prefers weaker GT valves, and probably will be kept for transformer spares, since the head is very good in my studio setup - which is now two amps.

Yes I am a big fan of neutrality, or at least transparency. For monitoring, I really do want a piece of wire that just gets louder. The speakers are flat enough.
Of course, I’m working with mainly a distorted amp - so I want to hear me, and not some wayward tone-print of whatever hi-mid disaster is currently fitted. The 161’s get the closest to what I wanted.
Yeah, the MC1 could be really good. But I’ll take a little less 3D mids and sparkle in exchange for lower noise.
I’m not looking for exciting valves - just faithful ones that have headroom.

I did study psychoacoustics for a while. Modulating music with Alpha and Beta waves, and locking tempos into Egyptian numerology, Fibonacci, or even taking inspiration from literally anything. But I’m convinced that my quest is to make music that lulls a listener in honestly, with realism. No psycho tricks, just great imaging and depth - with all the skills I have with EQ compression and reverb.

That Zyldjan 18” crash cymbal won’t sound nice when bashed a foot away from your head. But a real drummer playing 15ft away, and stroking the cymbal efficiently - well that’s where I’m at. Too much music is like hearing a succession of shit go past your window. I’m looking to knock the whole wall down.

Thanks for the link. Appreciate your comments Cdawg.
 
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