New Production 12AX7s - Which Are the Best ??

[ChurchHill]

Cool, thanks for letting me know about the TAD 7025WA.

The 2203 and the Herbert... that sounds like a plan to me. Unfortunately, I'm going to be gone for the next month, so it might be close to the end of May before I could get that done. I think it'll be fun to do, though, and informative, certainly for me and hopefully for others as well. I'll be looking forward to it when I get home.

 

[ChurchHill]

I ordered a Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG+, a Mullard CV4004, and a Sovtek 12AX7WC to try out. They'll be here in a couple of weeks (friggin' international shipping). I'll let you know how I feel they compare to the usual suspects once they get here. I'm hoping to find something a bit bigger and a bit less raspy-sounding than the JJ ECC83S, but with a similar kind of mid-focus.

I'll definitely be looking forward to your thoughts! I think those will give you some great options.

 

[tlingen]

I read on here actually about the Shuguang Silver Dragons which are a 12AX7B tube with a shiny silver cap.

Where did you find the Silver Dragons? I'd heard about those, but didn't see them from any of my usual sources. Definitely sounds like something I'd like to check out!

From what I've heard, you're right that some of the Rubys are Shuguang and some are JJs.

Here are the SHUGUANG 12AX7B SILVER DRAGONS....

https://www.tubesforamps.com/products/12ax7-ecc83-7025/shuguang-12ax7b-silver-dragon

 

[phil b]

I read on here actually about the Shuguang Silver Dragons which are a 12AX7B tube with a shiny silver cap.

Where did you find the Silver Dragons? I'd heard about those, but didn't see them from any of my usual sources. Definitely sounds like something I'd like to check out!

From what I've heard, you're right that some of the Rubys are Shuguang and some are JJs.

Here are the SHUGUANG 12AX7B SILVER DRAGONS....

https://www.tubesforamps.com/products/12ax7-ecc83-7025/shuguang-12ax7b-silver-dragon

Actually these are the same tubes but half the price. They dont produce them with the words "Silver Dragon" on them anymore but these are the same tube.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/292363057703

 

[Rex Rocker]

Don't the Silver Dragons have silver plates (hence the name)? Or are Silver Dragons just another name for the 9th Gens?

 

[LP Freak]

There really is no “best” when it comes to tubes. I’ve found that they’re all amp dependent, so what sounds good in one amp doesn’t necessarily sound good in the next. Some amps sound great with NOS tubes and others with the cheapest tubes you can find. It’s really all a crap shoot.

 

[Bloodrock]

Unless you’re cranking a vintage plexi, modern tubes all sound about the same. Especially in modern high gain amps that are just 100 stages of preamp gain. Most all 12ax7’s will sound the same with a tiny tweak of the knobs... Power tubes? Just buy what’s cheap and lasts in your amp, you aren’t hearing any work from the power tubes in modern high gainers.

 

[ewill52]

Ok...taking this in a different direction- time to retube my Deluxe Reverb RI. Not looking for high gain in this platform. My default has been JJ's but would love to try something else if there's a better option. Suggestions?

 

[ChurchHill]

Don't the Silver Dragons have silver plates (hence the name)? Or are Silver Dragons just another name for the 9th Gens?

One of those links above (I forget which one) had a blurb about how the plates used to be silver, but are now grey. Another one said they were no longer in production. Either way, those look awfully similar to several of the TADs as well as the Genalex 12AX7 standard / Ruby 12AX7AC7HG.

Of course, I could be completely wrong... this is one of the reasons why I find the Chinese tubes confusing. Just so many people marketing what I think is actually a small variety of tubes under so many different names.

 

[ChurchHill]

There really is no “best” when it comes to tubes. I’ve found that they’re all amp dependent, so what sounds good in one amp doesn’t necessarily sound good in the next. Some amps sound great with NOS tubes and others with the cheapest tubes you can find. It’s really all a crap shoot.

I absolutely agree! Best is so subjective, anyway. I've had just about all of these tubes sound great in one amp and sound like @$$ in another. I think some of this may be due to some manufacturers designing the amp around a certain tube, not to say they all do, but I'm sure some do. Most times, this is what becomes the standard tube that ships with the amp, but of course that is always subject to change based on fluctuating price/supply/demand.

Anyway... what I'm really trying to establish, mostly for my own gratifaction, is some common generalities about each of the new manufacture 12AX7s. Things such as the Tung Sol not having as much apparent gain while having strong lows and stronger highs (which are all, in reality, very likely just a reduction in mids). With some generalities, I could use that info to take a somewhat educated guess when replacing tubes as a means of tweaking the amp tone.

 

[ChurchHill]

Unless you’re cranking a vintage plexi, modern tubes all sound about the same. Especially in modern high gain amps that are just 100 stages of preamp gain. Most all 12ax7’s will sound the same with a tiny tweak of the knobs... Power tubes? Just buy what’s cheap and lasts in your amp, you aren’t hearing any work from the power tubes in modern high gainers.

While I agree that lots of multi-gain-stage modern amps do have a tendency to mask any subtle differences in tubes, and that some creative knob tweaking can eliminate a lot of the differences, I have to respectfully disagree that all modern tubes sound about the same. I think that was much more the case 10-15 years ago, but back then, there was still a relatively large and inexpensive supply of NOS tubes available as well. During the last 5-10 years, I think the variety and quality of 12AX7s has increased significantly. Still, I would almost always pick NOS tubes, especially for older amps. I do believe that there are enough differences between new tubes that it's worth experimenting with.

First and foremost, I love to tinker, so I enjoy doing this. If I can gain some insight into which 12AX7s have more gain or which ones have stronger mids, I could make a substitution that would allow me to run my mids at 5, instead of 10, and have more control of my tone.

As for power tubes... I'm thinking about doing the same thing with them at some point in the future, but for now, I'm just sticking with new manufacture 12AX7s.

 

[ChurchHill]

Ok...taking this in a different direction- time to retube my Deluxe Reverb RI. Not looking for high gain in this platform. My default has been JJ's but would love to try something else if there's a better option. Suggestions?

Well, I ended up going with NOS glass in my DRRI. If not for those, I'd probably recommend the Tung Sols for a good starting point, espcially on the vibrato channel. For the normal channel, I might pick something with a slightly different flavor, just to give the amp some variety. Maybe Mullard 12AX7s (not the CV4004), the Genalex 12AX7 Gold Pins, or even the JJ ECC803S - all three have long plates - maybe even a Ruby 12AX7AC5 - that certainly has more gain and strong mids. Anyway, just a few thoughts... my only real suggestion is to try a few different tubes and find out what works best for you in that amp.

 

[idnotbe]

Psvane for bright tone.
Gold lion for dark tone.

 

[JMP2203]

Unless you’re cranking a vintage plexi, modern tubes all sound about the same. Especially in modern high gain amps that are just 100 stages of preamp gain. Most all 12ax7’s will sound the same with a tiny tweak of the knobs... Power tubes? Just buy what’s cheap and lasts in your amp, you aren’t hearing any work from the power tubes in modern high gainers.

No, a JJ and a C9 do sound very diferent even in a 5 gain stage modern amp, and cheap power tubes dont last too much in amps unless they are russian 5881

i use C8 most of the time, but full C8 can get a bit harsh and noisy so you can use for example a Mullards i63 or i61 on one positions to smooth things and get that special midrange

also use a good NOS on phase inverter is a good idea, original(not reissue) mullard cv4004 sometimes can give you a very full tone on this position

 

[SpiderWars]

Ok...taking this in a different direction- time to retube my Deluxe Reverb RI. Not looking for high gain in this platform. My default has been JJ's but would love to try something else if there's a better option. Suggestions?

Well, I ended up going with NOS glass in my DRRI. If not for those, I'd probably recommend the Tung Sols for a good starting point, espcially on the vibrato channel. For the normal channel, I might pick something with a slightly different flavor, just to give the amp some variety. Maybe Mullard 12AX7s (not the CV4004), the Genalex 12AX7 Gold Pins, or even the JJ ECC803S - all three have long plates - maybe even a Ruby 12AX7AC5 - that certainly has more gain and strong mids. Anyway, just a few thoughts... my only real suggestion is to try a few different tubes and find out what works best for you in that amp.

I was going to suggest Tung Sols there too. Internally they look just like the EH. Just like the Mullards look identical to Sovtek LPS internally. And they are made in the same factory. Probably some differences (there are probably differences between each run of tubes since they might retool or something like that).

 

[phil b]

Don't the Silver Dragons have silver plates (hence the name)? Or are Silver Dragons just another name for the 9th Gens?

One of those links above (I forget which one) had a blurb about how the plates used to be silver, but are now grey. Another one said they were no longer in production. Either way, those look awfully similar to several of the TADs as well as the Genalex 12AX7 standard / Ruby 12AX7AC7HG.

Of course, I could be completely wrong... this is one of the reasons why I find the Chinese tubes confusing. Just so many people marketing what I think is actually a small variety of tubes under so many different names.

From using the Rubys you mentioned above compared to the 12AX7B {for ref: Diezel Einstein, Mesa Dual Rec rev.C), the Shuguang seemed to be a bit raspier/brighter on the top end. I wound up using an RFT in V.1 and the rest the Shuguang in both amps. I got 20 of em brand new for $100 and they sound just as good as my other tubes for those amps. The slight difference in top end wasnt worth an extra $5-7 per tube.

Heres an interesting link that goes into new production tubes. The guy did a good amount of research although it might not be 100 percent acurate, some good info nonetheless. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?44432-State-of-the-Vacuum-Tube-Industry-2016

 

[Rex Rocker]

Don't the Silver Dragons have silver plates (hence the name)? Or are Silver Dragons just another name for the 9th Gens?

One of those links above (I forget which one) had a blurb about how the plates used to be silver, but are now grey. Another one said they were no longer in production. Either way, those look awfully similar to several of the TADs as well as the Genalex 12AX7 standard / Ruby 12AX7AC7HG.

Of course, I could be completely wrong... this is one of the reasons why I find the Chinese tubes confusing. Just so many people marketing what I think is actually a small variety of tubes under so many different names.

I used to have one of those silver-colored ones, and it did sound a bit different than the standard Ruby C5's. I dropped it once, and that was the end of it, so I never got the chance to directly A/B those tubes. They are no longer in production, AFAIK. Here's some discussion regarding the Silver Dragons: http://www.fryette-users.com/forums/sho ... nese-12AX7

To my understanding, nowadays there are a few different varieties of Chinese 12AX7's being sold. First there's the Ruby C5's which are your standard grindy/gritty Shuguang C9's that everyone talks about. Then there's the Ruby C7's which are the Mullard-style which I haven't tried yet, but they're the same as the Genalex standard pin. There's a recent Sovtek copy too. Ruby has the 12AX7WBC and TAD has the 7025WA, which look similar, but the TAD has silver plates. There's also the Psvanes. Not sure if these are just standard 9th Gens with gold pins, though.

 

[phil b]

Don't the Silver Dragons have silver plates (hence the name)? Or are Silver Dragons just another name for the 9th Gens?

One of those links above (I forget which one) had a blurb about how the plates used to be silver, but are now grey. Another one said they were no longer in production. Either way, those look awfully similar to several of the TADs as well as the Genalex 12AX7 standard / Ruby 12AX7AC7HG.

Of course, I could be completely wrong... this is one of the reasons why I find the Chinese tubes confusing. Just so many people marketing what I think is actually a small variety of tubes under so many different names.

I used to have one of those silver-colored ones, and it did sound a bit different than the standard Ruby C5's. I dropped it once, and that was the end of it, so I never got the chance to directly A/B those tubes. They are no longer in production, AFAIK. Here's some discussion regarding the Silver Dragons: http://www.fryette-users.com/forums/sho ... nese-12AX7

To my understanding, nowadays there are a few different varieties of Chinese 12AX7's being sold. First there's the Ruby C5's which are your standard grindy/gritty Shuguang C9's that everyone talks about. Then there's the Ruby C7's which are the Mullard-style which I haven't tried yet, but they're the same as the Genalex standard pin. There's a recent Sovtek copy too. Ruby has the 12AX7WBC and TAD has the 7025WA, which look similar, but the TAD has silver plates. There's also the Psvanes. Not sure if these are just standard 9th Gens with gold pins, though.

That link is over 10 years old. Still some good info but outdated. Everyone who sells the Chinese 12AX7B says they are what the Silver Dragons are without the writing. One thing that makes them stand out from most new production 12AX7s is that these test quite a bit stronger than the others, which from what I've read and have been told is also a characteristic of the Silver Dragons. These do sound different from a standard Chinese 12ax7 and not as brittle as the Chinese 7025. I got a really good deal on a few 7025s and did not like them at all.

 

[Rex Rocker]

So the Silver Dragons and the 12AX7's with the silver plates are two different things?

The 7025's are the Ruby C7's/Genalex standard pins, right?

 

[phil b]

So the Silver Dragons and the 12AX7's with the silver plates are two different things?

The 7025's are the Ruby C7's/Genalex standard pins, right?

The 12AX7"B" is supposedly a Silver Dragon if what info thats out there and what i've been told is correct.

As far as the 7025s, that's the info from Dougs Tubes and his site seems pretty legit. The standard 7025 I had was direct from China and had a small sticker denoting 7025 on them. They did NOT sound like the Ruby C7 or their other high grade 12ax7.