Officers waited for backup because ‘they could’ve been shot’ - Lt Chris Olivarez

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JackBootedThug said:
and I have been involved in barricaded hostage situations in a correctional environment. these situations are dynamic to say the least. You expect shit in prison but a situation like that? I could not imagine.
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Me either
Those types are pure evil
 
War_in_D said:
The Border Patrol responding in Uvalde would probably be no different than what happens here in Arkansas in the rural areas of the state. Both of my nephews are State Troopers, but one of them was a county Sheriff's Deputy for a while in a very rural area of the state. When something big went down, or he needed back up, everyone from the State Police to the law enforcment arm of the Park Service would show up.
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yea I have 2 nephews that are leo's. we just had an active shooter barricade situation about 15 minutes from here the other night. One deputy killed and another wounded. Guy had been wigging out for days threatening violence and finally his mother called in because he threatened to kill her. Not sure of the specifics but the deputy who was killed was a wonderful guy. My nephew was over an hour away and responded. He was about 10 minutes away when he was told to turn around.

https://www.wvpublic.org/government...county-deputy-killed-in-line-of-duty-shooting
 
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Yeah, that definitely sucks. When you have family in law enforcement, you're always on edge for them. They never know what they might be facing on any given day. Thoughts and prayers out to that fallen officer's friends and family.
 
Jeesh, that's crazy!
Those guys do not get anywhere near enough money to have to go through that shit.
 
I see a lot of people talk about guns, what they "would do" in a situation. Everyone thinks they are Clint Eastwood. Very few people are trained to deal with an active shooter situation and even the guys that are..it's a no win situation. I think this whole thing stinks, but the entire Rambo mentality of "what I would do" is ridiculous.
 
japetus said:
I see a lot of people talk about guns, what they "would do" in a situation. Everyone thinks they are Clint Eastwood. Very few people are trained to deal with an active shooter situation and even the guys that are..it's a no win situation. I think this whole thing stinks, but the entire Rambo mentality of "what I would do" is ridiculous.
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Who is saying that in this thread? or do you mean in general? you are correct about people being trained to handle an active shooter, very few are including law enforcement.
 
japetus said:
I see a lot of people talk about guns, what they "would do" in a situation. Everyone thinks they are Clint Eastwood. Very few people are trained to deal with an active shooter situation and even the guys that are..it's a no win situation. I think this whole thing stinks, but the entire Rambo mentality of "what I would do" is ridiculous.
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Agreed, for the most part. People can talk all they want, but would never know what they would do in the actual situation. I believe it was Mike Tyson that said "Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth". However, that being said. Law enforcement on the scene in Uvalde had to physically restrain unarmed parents from rushing into that school to try and protect their children. I think it would have been safe to say that had these parents had guns, and unrestrained access to entering the building... They would have went in to protect their kids.
 
JackBootedThug said:
Who is saying that in this thread? or do you mean in general? you are correct about people being trained to handle an active shooter, very few are including law enforcement.
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Not in this thread, actually a conversation I had Friday at a party. This guy was popping off about how he would have ran in and "handled the situation" and acting like Steven Segal from Under Siege. I'm just sitting there thinking "You'd get gunned down in a second you fucking moron".
 
japetus said:
I see a lot of people talk about guns, what they "would do" in a situation. Everyone thinks they are Clint Eastwood. Very few people are trained to deal with an active shooter situation and even the guys that are..it's a no win situation. I think this whole thing stinks, but the entire Rambo mentality of "what I would do" is ridiculous.
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I agree… to an extent. I’m trained in martial arts and have taken active shooter courses. The courses were less about rushing the shooter and more and positioning, readiness during a shooting and composure. Cowering down behind a desk, wall or corner is a recipe for death. I won’t go into detail here, but staying in a “ready” position is key. Even the best training cannot make you ready for a real situation.
 
Metalhex said:
None of that matters to an emotional parent who's child is in that school. If I was one of them an unarmed, I'd be a raging bull get out of my way
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I totally agree. Like I said, the whole situation is just terrible all around.
 
I was in two hostage situations my first 2 weeks of work with the BOP. I mean right in the middle of it. went down right in front of me. shit was intense man. lots of other crazy situations as well. but in that environment it's expected. could not imagine a school situation with guns and victims like that.
 
psychodave said:
Even the best training cannot make you ready for a real situation.
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Sadly, this is very true. The difference is adrenaline dump. Something instructors cannot replicate in a training session. They can use timers and rapid physical movement and even noise to induce some stress, but you always feel at least somewhat safe in training, the instructors have to keep things safe for liability reasons, although advanced and level 3 tactical courses will introduce maneuvers that they would never do in an entry level course.
Ive done more weapons training than I will discuss here, and I can tell you first hand that if you are caught off guard in a life and death situation and adrenaline dump kicks in, you will be compromised in ways you would normally think impossible because you have never experienced it.
I was in my van on the side of the road in a bad neighborhood talking to a home warranty company about a job I was on and my focus was on my paperwork in my lap, not on my surroundings, and a 260 lb predator with a hunting knife explodes into the passenger side and wants whatever money I have (I do appliance work) He scared me so bad I had full adrenaline dump for the first time in my life and I got my hands on my Sig 226 as I was opening the door to get out and put some space between us. Every motor function I had was compromised. Getting my weapon out, and into a fire-ready position with sights on target was much harder than I anticipated because I was trying to do everything WAY too fast due to the adrenaline. All the muscle-memory I had trained to develop was greatly compromised. The 1 thing that did happen due to all my training was I could tell that if I put my finger on the trigger I would have shot the idiot without necessarily meaning to. I left my finger on the trigger guard and told him he had 3 seconds to outrun this bullet, and he shot out of the van and hauled ass. My hands were so twitchy that proper manipulation of a modified SRT race trigger in my Sig was impossible. There is a reason a lot of carry pistols have a heavy trigger. I had never considered why...
I always thought "cheaper guns have heavier triggers"... "Heavy triggers are not accurate"....
I can only imagine a situation where kids in a school are involved, adrenaline dump kicks in and you have to start making considerations such as kids running all around while you try to find a safe angle to hit the perp without hitting the very kids your trying to save.
That one 15 second occurrence changed everything for me, and forced me to realize that even with more training than most LE guys, when it really counts, there are things that will happen that will greatly reduce your ability to do what must be done that your training could not address.
The other time I was almost robbed I saw the guy coming and knew full well he would puss out when I threw that pistol up in his face, so adrenaline dump was not an issue and my training worked just as it should have. I did not shoot either of those guys, although I could have legally shot both of them. I have to work in those places where the wolves have taken over, but there are still some good people in there who can't help what has happened to their neighborhoods over the years.
 
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JTyson said:
Sadly, this is very true. The difference is adrenaline dump. Something instructors cannot replicate in a training session. They can use timers and rapid physical movement and even noise to induce some stress, but you always feel at least somewhat safe in training, the instructors have to keep things safe for liability reasons, although advanced and level 3 tactical courses will introduce maneuvers that they would never do in an entry level course.
Ive done more weapons training than I will discuss here, and I can tell you first hand that if you are caught off guard in a life and death situation and adrenaline dump kicks in, you will be compromised in ways you would normally think impossible because you have never experienced it.
I was in my van on the side of the road in a bad neighborhood talking to a home warranty company about a job I was on and my focus was on my paperwork in my lap, not on my surroundings, and a 260 lb predator with a hunting knife explodes into the passenger side and wants whatever money I have (I do appliance work) He scared me so bad I had full adrenaline dump for the first time in my life and I got my hands on my Sig 226 as I was opening the door to get out and put some space between us. Every motor function I had was compromised. Getting my weapon out, and into a fire-ready position with sights on target was much harder than I anticipated because I was trying to do everything WAY too fast due to the adrenaline. All the muscle-memory I had trained to develop was greatly compromised. The 1 thing that did happen due to all my training was I could tell that if I put my finger on the trigger I would have shot the idiot without necessarily meaning to. I left my finger on the trigger guard and told him he had 3 seconds to outrun this bullet, and he shot out of the van and hauled ass. My hands were so twitchy that proper manipulation of a modified SRT race trigger in my Sig was impossible. There is a reason a lot of carry pistols have a heavy trigger. I had never considered why...
I always thought "cheaper guns have heavier triggers"... "Heavy triggers are not accurate"....
I can only imagine a situation where kids in a school are involved, adrenaline dump kicks in and you have to start making considerations such as kids running all around while you try to find a safe angle to hit the perp without hitting the very kids your trying to save.
That one 15 second occurrence changed everything for me, and forced me to realize that even with more training than most LE guys, when it really counts, there are things that will happen that will greatly reduce your ability to do what must be done that your training could not address.
The other time I was almost robbed I saw the guy coming and knew full well he would puss out when I threw that pistol up in his face, so adrenaline dump was not an issue and my training worked just as it should have. I did not shoot either of those guys, although I could have legally shot both of them. I have to work in those places where the wolves have taken over, but there are still some good people in there who can't help what has happened to their neighborhoods over the years.
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Tunnel vision is a big thing I discuss when I teach martial arts. It WILL happen and you need to be able to detect it and make adjustments.

The adrenaline dump is impossible to control for me. I’d probably have a heart attack (not making a joke as I know lots of people have died this way because of the adrenaline dump).

Kinda makes you wonder how soldiers in past wars dealt with it? I couldn’t begin to imagine.
 
JTyson said:
Sadly, this is very true. The difference is adrenaline dump. Something instructors cannot replicate in a training session. They can use timers and rapid physical movement and even noise to induce some stress, but you always feel at least somewhat safe in training, the instructors have to keep things safe for liability reasons, although advanced and level 3 tactical courses will introduce maneuvers that they would never do in an entry level course.
Ive done more weapons training than I will discuss here, and I can tell you first hand that if you are caught off guard in a life and death situation and adrenaline dump kicks in, you will be compromised in ways you would normally think impossible because you have never experienced it.
I was in my van on the side of the road in a bad neighborhood talking to a home warranty company about a job I was on and my focus was on my paperwork in my lap, not on my surroundings, and a 260 lb predator with a hunting knife explodes into the passenger side and wants whatever money I have (I do appliance work) He scared me so bad I had full adrenaline dump for the first time in my life and I got my hands on my Sig 226 as I was opening the door to get out and put some space between us. Every motor function I had was compromised. Getting my weapon out, and into a fire-ready position with sights on target was much harder than I anticipated because I was trying to do everything WAY too fast due to the adrenaline. All the muscle-memory I had trained to develop was greatly compromised. The 1 thing that did happen due to all my training was I could tell that if I put my finger on the trigger I would have shot the idiot without necessarily meaning to. I left my finger on the trigger guard and told him he had 3 seconds to outrun this bullet, and he shot out of the van and hauled ass. My hands were so twitchy that proper manipulation of a modified SRT race trigger in my Sig was impossible. There is a reason a lot of carry pistols have a heavy trigger. I had never considered why...
I always thought "cheaper guns have heavier triggers"... "Heavy triggers are not accurate"....
I can only imagine a situation where kids in a school are involved, adrenaline dump kicks in and you have to start making considerations such as kids running all around while you try to find a safe angle to hit the perp without hitting the very kids your trying to save.
That one 15 second occurrence changed everything for me, and forced me to realize that even with more training than most LE guys, when it really counts, there are things that will happen that will greatly reduce your ability to do what must be done that your training could not address.
The other time I was almost robbed I saw the guy coming and knew full well he would puss out when I threw that pistol up in his face, so adrenaline dump was not an issue and my training worked just as it should have. I did not shoot either of those guys, although I could have legally shot both of them. I have to work in those places where the wolves have taken over, but there are still some good people in there who can't help what has happened to their neighborhoods over the years.
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truf...you know you have mental issues when you wake up in the middle of the night and for no reason the dump happens...lol...
 
psychodave said:
Tunnel vision is a big thing I discuss when I teach martial arts. It WILL happen and you need to be able to detect it and make adjustments.

The adrenaline dump is impossible to control for me. I’d probably have a heart attack (not making a joke as I know lots of people have died this way because of the adrenaline dump).

Kinda makes you wonder how soldiers in past wars dealt with it? I couldn’t begin to imagine.
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Me either
I know it hit me like a train and in a split second I felt like I had never handled a weapon before in my life. Ive seen guys at the motocross races have full adrenaline dump after a huge crash, usually at high speeds, and they could not get words out and their hands and limbs shook uncontrollably, but never had it happen myself till that day. My head is always on a swivel after that... I think it is avoidable if you see a situation coming, but when it catches you totally off guard it will crush you, my instructors have said similar things about it- Don't let them get close enough to surprise you and you can manage the situation accordingly.
But Im not under any delusion I have this all figured out :LOL:
 
JackBootedThug said:
truf...you know you have mental issues when you wake up in the middle of the night and for no reason the dump happens...lol...
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Jeesh, Ive not had that happen yet, that would drive me nuts :doh:
I gotta have sleep or Im not good for anything, that would keep me up for days!
But then, Im old and beat up :aww:
 
JackBootedThug said:
I was in two hostage situations my first 2 weeks of work with the BOP. I mean right in the middle of it. went down right in front of me. shit was intense man. lots of other crazy situations as well. but in that environment it's expected. could not imagine a school situation with guns and victims like that.
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I have a friend/customer who was a prison guard for a long time at a supermax facility, he had been shanked multiple times and even set on fire at one point. He was well past that in years when I knew him, his main way of coping with it all was alcohol, and unfortunately it killed him when his liver failed. He was 6 weeks from a replacement liver when he checked out. He was one hell of a tough old bird, he liked to work in his garden. He said it was therapy :aww:
He is missed, the people here in town still talk about him years later
I can't imagine years of living under that kind of stress, and you still have enough good in you to take on bringing in boys in impossible situations into your home and trying to give them a chance in life. You are a better man than I sir, my hats off to you :cheers:
 
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