Officers waited for backup because ‘they could’ve been shot’ - Lt Chris Olivarez

[JackBootedThug]

I have a friend/customer who was a prison guard for a long time at a supermax facility, he had been shanked multiple times and even set on fire at one point. He was well past that in years when I knew him, his main way of coping with it all was alcohol, and unfortunately it killed him when his liver failed. He was 6 weeks from a replacement liver when he checked out. He was one hell of a tough old bird, he liked to work in his garden. He said it was therapy
He is missed, the people here in town still talk about him years later
I can't imagine years of living under that kind of stress, and you still have enough good in you to take on bringing in boys in impossible situations into your home and trying to give them a chance in life. You are a better man than I sir, my hats off to you

aww shucks thanks man...I've been assaulted a ton of times but almost stabbed only once. I rarely drink but I have been fortunate and can usually turn it on and off if that makes any sense. Until I wake up in the middle of the night wigging out. lol...That's only happened once or twice and it's been a long time. I'm all about my family and my kids. It keeps me goin...

 

[psychodave]

Me either
I know it hit me like a train and in a split second I felt like I had never handled a weapon before in my life. Ive seen guys at the motocross races have full adrenaline dump after a huge crash, usually at high speeds, and they could not get words out and their hands and limbs shook uncontrollably, but never had it happen myself till that day. My head is always on a swivel after that... I think it is avoidable if you see a situation coming, but when it catches you totally off guard it will crush you, my instructors have said similar things about it- Don't let them get close enough to surprise you and you can manage the situation accordingly.
But Im not under any delusion I have this all figured out

I have a good way to show some of the younger black belts tunnel vision and a partial adrenaline dump. Out of nowhere, I’ll grab them and really push them around and start yelling. They immediately freeze and just stop. I tell them they need learn how to react differently. Granted it’s still in a controlled environment and generally know they are safe with me, but it’s a good learning lesson.

 

[JackBootedThug]

I have a good way to show some of the younger black belts tunnel vision and a partial adrenaline dump. Out of nowhere, I’ll grab them and really push them around and start yelling. They immediately freeze and just stop. I tell them they need learn how to react differently. Granted it’s still in a controlled environment and generally know they are safe with me, but it’s a good learning lesson.

oh Lord Dave...if we ever meet DO NOT do that to me...I'm goosy as shit....

 

[311boogieman]

Sadly, this is very true. The difference is adrenaline dump. Something instructors cannot replicate in a training session. They can use timers and rapid physical movement and even noise to induce some stress, but you always feel at least somewhat safe in training, the instructors have to keep things safe for liability reasons, although advanced and level 3 tactical courses will introduce maneuvers that they would never do in an entry level course.
Ive done more weapons training than I will discuss here, and I can tell you first hand that if you are caught off guard in a life and death situation and adrenaline dump kicks in, you will be compromised in ways you would normally think impossible because you have never experienced it.
I was in my van on the side of the road in a bad neighborhood talking to a home warranty company about a job I was on and my focus was on my paperwork in my lap, not on my surroundings, and a 260 lb predator with a hunting knife explodes into the passenger side and wants whatever money I have (I do appliance work) He scared me so bad I had full adrenaline dump for the first time in my life and I got my hands on my Sig 226 as I was opening the door to get out and put some space between us. Every motor function I had was compromised. Getting my weapon out, and into a fire-ready position with sights on target was much harder than I anticipated because I was trying to do everything WAY too fast due to the adrenaline. All the muscle-memory I had trained to develop was greatly compromised. The 1 thing that did happen due to all my training was I could tell that if I put my finger on the trigger I would have shot the idiot without necessarily meaning to. I left my finger on the trigger guard and told him he had 3 seconds to outrun this bullet, and he shot out of the van and hauled ass. My hands were so twitchy that proper manipulation of a modified SRT race trigger in my Sig was impossible. There is a reason a lot of carry pistols have a heavy trigger. I had never considered why...
I always thought "cheaper guns have heavier triggers"... "Heavy triggers are not accurate"....
I can only imagine a situation where kids in a school are involved, adrenaline dump kicks in and you have to start making considerations such as kids running all around while you try to find a safe angle to hit the perp without hitting the very kids your trying to save.
That one 15 second occurrence changed everything for me, and forced me to realize that even with more training than most LE guys, when it really counts, there are things that will happen that will greatly reduce your ability to do what must be done that your training could not address.
The other time I was almost robbed I saw the guy coming and knew full well he would puss out when I threw that pistol up in his face, so adrenaline dump was not an issue and my training worked just as it should have. I did not shoot either of those guys, although I could have legally shot both of them. I have to work in those places where the wolves have taken over, but there are still some good people in there who can't help what has happened to their neighborhoods over the years.

I learned a lot reading that. Thanks for sharing. I can understand why you didn't kill those two guys and chose to give them a second chance. Not sure what I would do TBH. I hope I never have to use my hand gun in self defense but if I do I do. I've only had 3 classes too. And I know taking 3 more still won't be enough. You can never have enough training. Also not sure what I would do if one of my kids was in a school like that and the police were not going in. I'd be hard pressed to just stand there and do nothing. Always easier said then done though.

 

[JTyson]

I learned a lot reading that. Thanks for sharing. I can understand why you didn't kill those two guys and chose to give them a second chance. Not sure what I would do TBH. I hope I never have to use my hand gun in self defense but if I do I do. I've only had 3 classes too. And I know taking 3 more still won't be enough. You can never have enough training. Also not sure what I would do if one of my kids was in a school like that and the police were not going in. I'd be hard pressed to just stand there and do nothing. Always easier said then done though.

Honestly, you have to decide beforehand that your intention is to go home to your family and not be out to teach an idiot a lesson, otherwise you will have to deal with the fact that even the wolves in the neighborhoods have kids running around there and I never want to be the guy that shot and killed someones dad no matter how deserving of it he was. I always resort to giving the moron a chance to decide wether or not he is about to get shot, and so far they turned out to make positive life choices.
I hope I never have to see the other side of that...
I had several years of doing anywhere from 6-10 two full day training sessions a year with VATA Group, when they still did civilian training sessions, from entry level all the way through advanced and Level III, and into what they would call "workshop weekends" where they know you have the handling skills and they don't have to babysit you, so you can focus on seriously running guns hard for 2 straight days at the SWAT/DEA training facility at Camp Villuere in LA. By that time you are running in and around vehicles, buildings, rooms and all manner of obstacles.
Right/left handed, and off shoulder (shooting right handed on your left shoulder behind cover so you don't expose yourself) with AR's and pistols.
I was never anything special out there, they were constantly pushing you beyond your comfort zone where you likely suck, but it was enough time that it all sunk in.
And yet, still had the day come all that shit was rendered null and void due to not being aware of my surroundings for 30 seconds...
Not exactly confidence inspiring

 

[Findthetone1]

Honestly, you have to decide beforehand that your intention is to go home to your family and not be out to teach an idiot a lesson, otherwise you will have to deal with the fact that even the wolves in the neighborhoods have kids running around there and I never want to be the guy that shot and killed someones dad no matter how deserving of it he was. I always resort to giving the moron a chance to decide wether or not he is about to get shot, and so far they turned out to make positive life choices.
I hope I never have to see the other side of that...
I had several years of doing anywhere from 6-10 two full day training sessions a year with VATA Group, when they still did civilian training sessions, from entry level all the way through advanced and Level III, and into what they would call "workshop weekends" where they know you have the handling skills and they don't have to babysit you, so you can focus on seriously running guns hard for 2 straight days at the SWAT/DEA training facility at Camp Villuere in LA. By that time you are running in and around vehicles, buildings, rooms and all manner of obstacles.
Right/left handed, and off shoulder (shooting right handed on your left shoulder behind cover so you don't expose yourself) with AR's and pistols.
I was never anything special out there, they were constantly pushing you beyond your comfort zone where you likely suck, but it was enough time that it all sunk in.
And yet, still had the day come all that shit was rendered null and void due to not being aware of my surroundings for 30 seconds...
Not exactly confidence inspiring

No amount of training or fancy civilian classes will do you any good if you're not prepared to live in condition yellow bordering condition orange. The 21 foot rule was in play in that van. Just my POV

 

[JTyson]

No amount of training or fancy civilian classes will do you any good if you're not prepared to live in condition yellow bordering condition orange. The 21 foot rule was in play in that van. Just my POV

Yes, that was kinda my point

 

[Findthetone1]

Yes, that was kinda my point

I understand that. My point being that when living in a higher state of awareness and faced with a high stress tactical situation, training, if trained properly and continuously WILL take over (unless you just don't have the mindset and shouldn't ever be in one and fold like a cheap chair). I'll also add that contrary to what popular sentiment is about arming teachers, what you described is exactly why the idea is a poor one. If people are serious about protecting kids, quit demonizing Law Enforcement and start putting them back into schools and let the trained professionals do their job. Ulvade being the exception. There certainly seems to be something way off about the police response.
And before anybody jumps on a police response time tirade, I'm talking about trained officers that are actually in the schools at all times during school hours.

 

[JTyson]

I understand that. My point being that when living in a higher state of awareness and faced with a high stress tactical situation, training, if trained properly and continuously WILL take over (unless you just don't have the mindset and shouldn't ever be in one and fold like a cheap chair). I'll also add that contrary to what popular sentiment is about arming teachers, what you described is exactly why the idea is a poor one. If people are serious about protecting kids, quit demonizing Law Enforcement and start putting them back into schools and let the trained professionals do their job. Ulvade being the exception. There certainly seems to be something way off about the police response.
And before anybody jumps on a police response time tirade, I'm talking about trained officers that are actually in the schools at all times during

We are actually talking about 2 different things, Your speaking of (LE) being called into an active shooter (school) scenario, where they know they are going into a hot situation, and yes, the training should take over. I'm simply saying that if your out in the wild, and get caught offguard enough that adrenaline dump happens it will compromise your motor skills even if you've had a lot of training. I do appliance work, normally there's no problems unless Im in an area where the wolves are known to be and usually I do stay very aware of my surroundings, but that day at that time, my focus was on paperwork in my lap after a call and it resulted in the situation I described. There is a huge difference between people who are on fast teams and know they could be called at any second to go do business and what I do day in and day out. Its perfectly feasible that if a year has passed with no incidents on my service calls, my head may not be on a swivel every second of the day. Its actually highly probable.
I agree there should be a cop or some qualified person with appropriate skills at the schools, and the schools should be further modified if needed to make it much harder for anyone to wander in. Also that laying the defense of your kids in the lap of teachers is a bad idea, although I'm not against trained teachers with the appropriate skillset being permitted to act if they can stop the killing of a kid. If they are unarmed, they have little chance against a nut hell bent on doing evil.
Me and a good friend who I shot long-distance with for years decided we would like to do some 2 and 3 gun competitions, we initially went to those guys to nail down some weak spots we knew we had, and as a result, we learned so much that we decided to just continue that training and take it as far as we could instead of doing the 3 gun comps due to the cost vs round counts of each vs the other. We had no idea we would have spent that much time and effort on it at first, but we were both very glad we did it. They have forgotten more than I'll ever know about all of it, I'm not sure I would call their training methods "fancy", these guys are all meat and potatoes ex Special Forces/Seals and current SWAT Team leaders and mobile security team guys who probably have no idea how many gunfights they have been in if asked. The whole "transition to off shoulder" thing was strictly to minimize exposure of your torso when shooting around corners to the right if you are right handed. Yes, you could jump out there and shoot normally but your exposing way more of yourself to do it, and it kind of defeats training when the objective is to not get shot. There is nothing fancy about it, its about putting rounds on with the greatest chance of survival.
They quit doing civilian training a few years ago due to having so many LE/military training contracts to see to. They are in high demand. They are not just goofs who have an NRA instructors license, They would never have been able to hold courses at the SWAT/DEA training grounds without the credentials and access their experience and jobs gave them, we were just lucky enough to get in at the right time. You cannot access those facilities without the proper paperwork and ID's. These are the very guys who would train the people your speaking of for just such an occurrence as the Ulvade shooting. Its a shame we can't still do weekend sessions with them, although one of them lives close by and we still do some Saturday sessions when he can at a private place with only a few of us. It only happens a few times a year though.
I have no idea why the delays happened at Ulvade, I'm pretty sure their was a communication issue at the very least, but it may only be a piece of the failure. Somebody will get to the bottom of it though

 

[Findthetone1]

We are actually talking about 2 different things, Your speaking of (LE) being called into an active shooter (school) scenario, where they know they are going into a hot situation, and yes, the training should take over. I'm simply saying that if your out in the wild, and get caught offguard enough that adrenaline dump happens it will compromise your motor skills even if you've had a lot of training. I do appliance work, normally there's no problems unless Im in an area where the wolves are known to be and usually I do stay very aware of my surroundings, but that day at that time, my focus was on paperwork in my lap after a call and it resulted in the situation I described. There is a huge difference between people who are on fast teams and know they could be called at any second to go do business and what I do day in and day out. Its perfectly feasible that if a year has passed with no incidents on my service calls, my head may not be on a swivel every second of the day. Its actually highly probable.
I agree there should be a cop or some qualified person with appropriate skills at the schools, and the schools should be further modified if needed to make it much harder for anyone to wander in. Also that laying the defense of your kids in the lap of teachers is a bad idea, although I'm not against trained teachers with the appropriate skillset being permitted to act if they can stop the killing of a kid. If they are unarmed, they have little chance against a nut hell bent on doing evil.
Me and a good friend who I shot long-distance with for years decided we would like to do some 2 and 3 gun competitions, we initially went to those guys to nail down some weak spots we knew we had, and as a result, we learned so much that we decided to just continue that training and take it as far as we could instead of doing the 3 gun comps due to the cost vs round counts of each vs the other. We had no idea we would have spent that much time and effort on it at first, but we were both very glad we did it. They have forgotten more than I'll ever know about all of it, I'm not sure I would call their training methods "fancy", these guys are all meat and potatoes ex Special Forces/Seals and current SWAT Team leaders and mobile security team guys who probably have no idea how many gunfights they have been in if asked. The whole "transition to off shoulder" thing was strictly to minimize exposure of your torso when shooting around corners to the right if you are right handed. Yes, you could jump out there and shoot normally but your exposing way more of yourself to do it, and it kind of defeats training when the objective is to not get shot. There is nothing fancy about it, its about putting rounds on with the greatest chance of survival.
They quit doing civilian training a few years ago due to having so many LE/military training contracts to see to. They are in high demand. They are not just goofs who have an NRA instructors license, They would never have been able to hold courses at the SWAT/DEA training grounds without the credentials and access their experience and jobs gave them, we were just lucky enough to get in at the right time. You cannot access those facilities without the proper paperwork and ID's. These are the very guys who would train the people your speaking of for just such an occurrence as the Ulvade shooting. Its a shame we can't still do weekend sessions with them, although one of them lives close by and we still do some Saturday sessions when he can at a private place with only a few of us. It only happens a few times a year though.
I have no idea why the delays happened at Ulvade, I'm pretty sure their was a communication issue at the very least, but it may only be a piece of the failure. Somebody will get to the bottom of it though

I’ll have read this later but we’re really not talking about different things. I mean this in the nicest possible way, you gotta get your point across is 100 words or less. Jesus dude.

 

[311boogieman]

I’ll have read this later but we’re really not talking about different things. I mean this in the nicest possible way, you gotta get your point across is 100 words or less. Jesus dude.

Maybe not my place to butt in but he's already made his point. Sometimes it feels good to get things off your chest, especially with those that have common interest (like guitars, amps and guns/self defense). Cathartic you know? I've never had my life threatened before and certainly not twice (or maybe more in his case). I for one will give him more slack.

 

[JTyson]

Maybe not my place to butt in but he's already made his point. Sometimes it feels good to get things off your chest, especially with those that have common interest (like guitars, amps and guns/self defense). Cathartic you know? I've never had my life threatened before and certainly not twice (or maybe more in his case). I for one will give him more slack.

Hehehe
I was on hold for 50 minutes with a home warranty authorization line and ended up sharing my life story. Your right, I said everything I needed to pages ago

 

[Findthetone1]

Maybe not my place to butt in but he's already made his point. Sometimes it feels good to get things off your chest, especially with those that have common interest (like guitars, amps and guns/self defense). Cathartic you know? I've never had my life threatened before and certainly not twice (or maybe more in his case). I for one will give him more slack.

Fair enough. I've stayed out of this thread on purpose for specific reasons. I shouldn't have posted and since I have I'm reminded that most people aren't wired like me therefore view things differently. That's fine. My whole point was that proper and continous training will greatly diminsh the ill effects of an adrenaline dump in an oh shit situation but you have to live in a world of constant awareness. I do. It's just a byproduct of my life experiences.
I'll stay out of the conversation.

 

[JackBootedThug]

Fair enough. I've stayed out of this thread on purpose for specific reasons. I shouldn't have posted and since I have I'm reminded that most people aren't wired like me therefore view things differently. That's fine. My whole point was that proper and continous training will greatly diminsh the ill effects of an adrenaline dump in an oh shit situation but you have to live in a world of constant awareness. I do. It's just a byproduct of my life experiences.
I'll stay out of the conversation.

you can't live like that without eventually having serious side effects. no need to stay out of the conversation. agree to disagree-simple as that. I see what your saying.

 

[JTyson]

Fair enough. I've stayed out of this thread on purpose for specific reasons. I shouldn't have posted and since I have I'm reminded that most people aren't wired like me therefore view things differently. That's fine. My whole point was that proper and continous training will greatly diminsh the ill effects of an adrenaline dump in an oh shit situation but you have to live in a world of constant awareness. I do. It's just a byproduct of my life experiences.
I'll stay out of the conversation.

I agree with you completely. I was just pointing out that things can and do go sideways on occasion. It happened. I fucked up and got caught not paying attention. I would love to tell everyone I was better than that but I can’t truthfully do that. It did still end well though. I’ve been on the road working for 39 years and had a few times my training came into play and but for that one time things went just as you would expect.
Carry on ?

 

[JTyson]

you can't live like that without eventually having serious side effects. no need to stay out of the conversation. agree to disagree-simple as that. I see what your saying.

Agreed

 

[Findthetone1]

you can't live like that without eventually having serious side effects. no need to stay out of the conversation. agree to disagree-simple as that. I see what your saying.

Oh trust me, it has. However, I have learned alot of things about it along the way and have come quite a distance in the last 7 years.
And I'm not disagreeing with JTyson. I was just trying to add my nickels worth of info and it fell flat. I apologize.

 

[JackBootedThug]

Oh trust me, it has. However, I have learned alot of things about it along the way and have come quite a distance in the last 7 years.
And I'm not disagreeing with JTyson. I was just trying to add my nickels worth of info and it fell flat. I apologize.

no need to apologize...we are all on the same page. I've always said everybody is a warrior till it's time to do some warrior shit. Every situation can be completely different in how your body responds to stimuli. Most people run away from danger-some run towards it. Most criminals expect the "flight response"...they look for that. I spent 22 years invoking that response in them....daily. So on the street I have a tendency to react differently to certain situations. and I'm not bragging...I want no problems with anybody...ever. To old and broke down...I'll either shoot or cut someone. Hell-I even drive around with a fuckin tomahawk in my truck that I had custom made out of a 1 7/8" wrench. LOL..plus I have 4 ar's in condition 3 on the wall beside my bed with about 50 loaded mags. I'm not fuckin playin with no shitheads ever. Luckily I'm in a rural area where usually only petty stuff happens. You guys living in the higher crime and urban areas...I don't know how you do it.
edit-that's what I mean by side effects of living in a state of heightened awareness for long periods of time. Makes you paranoid I guess. lol...

 

[Findthetone1]

no need to apologize...we are all on the same page. I've always said everybody is a warrior till it's time to do some warrior shit. Every situation can be completely different in how your body responds to stimuli. Most people run away from danger-some run towards it. Most criminals expect the "flight response"...they look for that. I spent 22 years invoking that response in them....daily. So on the street I have a tendency to react differently to certain situations. and I'm not bragging...I want no problems with anybody...ever. To old and broke down...I'll either shoot or cut someone. Hell-I even drive around with a fuckin tomahawk in my truck that I had custom made out of a 1 7/8" wrench. LOL..plus I have 4 ar's in condition 3 on the wall beside my bed with about 50 loaded mags. I'm not fuckin playin with no shitheads ever. Luckily I'm in a rural area where usually only petty stuff happens. You guys living in the higher crime and urban areas...I don't know how you do it.
edit-that's what I mean by side effects of living in a state of heightened awareness for long periods of time. Makes you paranoid I guess. lol...

Its just a different view of the world. We're both sheep dogs brother. Not everybody can be.

 

[JTyson]

Oh trust me, it has. However, I have learned alot of things about it along the way and have come quite a distance in the last 7 years.
And I'm not disagreeing with JTyson. I was just trying to add my nickels worth of info and it fell flat. I apologize.

Don’t apologize. I finally got that you were just saying the right training teaches you to either not get in that situation in the first place, or deal with it if it happens. I thought you were saying that would never happen if you had the right training. I was thinking “holy shit, what other training would have been better than those guys??”
Then I spent 45 minutes talking about how good they are (and they really are)?
I deviated from my training for 30 seconds and it bit me on the ass. Luckily it still ended well. You learn from it and adjust your shit accordingly and get on with life.
No harm no foul