Stage Volume

[voodooradio1]

THIS- http://www.two-notes.com/en/hardware/torpedo-live/

now turn it up as loud as you want.

Yeah, I bought one recently, and I am returning it today. For some reason I assumed that this unit would attenuate a cabinet, which it does not. In all of the buzz going around, I just assumed it would, mainly because that would be a logical function to make it useful for the stage.
This unit won't solve volume issues for the average bar band player, unless the player likes hearing his/her guitar tones pumped through a stage monitor, or wants to add an attenuator before their cab. It may be well suited to a touring band that will have a quality P.A. and sound man at every gig, but for the weekend warrior, it means turning control of your sound over to a sound man that may, or may not know what they are doing.
Man, I had such high hopes for this unit. No disrespect to Two Notes. I should have read up a bit more instead of assuming..

 

[reverymike]

Face the cab backwards. Works great.

 

[IceMan]

The biggest problem I've encountered in recent years is the AGE of the sound guys in most places. If the sound guy is under 40 - chances are you are going to sound like shit because they only care about the bass and kick drum to get the "ladies out dancing". These douchebags DJ mix on most nights and like hip-hop and "club mixes" so they can get the chicks out shaking their asses. They have NO IDEA how to mix a band and get a good sound. So, if you play guitar - sorry. Nobody is going to hear you. And forget about them turning you up during a solo. You better have your own solo boost.

The best sound guys are in their late 50's - have long grey pony tails - and look like they could keel over dead at any minute. They "get" how to mix a live band and will spend the most time getting the guitars and vocals mixed. If a sound guy takes longer than 2 minutes on the kick drum - you're dealing with the above guy.

If you're dealing with the first guy - don't take any shit! Be polite, but don't allow him to make you sound like crap. You're going to have the most success with giving him a direct feed from your rig - like a second send from an AxFX or a cab emulated out of some kind like a Torpedo. A bumped mic on a cab will NEVER get reset by the young-douche sound guy. He won't even notice it. And he'll be too busy trying to hit on chicks standing by the board to go up on stage to reset it. So get your stage sound how you like it - with reasonable volume that works with the band.

The old-guy sound guy will have you mic'd up and sounding awesome in no time and will have that mic taped down with enough gaffers tape to hold an hold up a plumber's shorts. It will stay put. And no matter what kind of music you play - soundcheck with "Slow Ride" by Foghat. This will immediately get that grey pony tail flopping with nostalgic bliss and he will immediately order his first Pabst of the night as he settles in to have some fun mixing a band he'll enjoy listening to. This is the guy you want to suck up to a bit. Buy him a beer during a break. Tell him it sounds great. If he suggests any adjustments - try it out and see if he's right. Chances are it will work and you'll be a better band for it.

If you can even find the young sound guy after the first set, don't bother asking for any adjustments. He's too busy trying to get laid. Ask some friends or other patrons how things sound. Chances are they will be too drunk to care or have any frame of reference to provide any insight, but you can usually get a feel for how things sound from the crowd. You can usually make some on-stage adjustments to get you by.

There is no magic bullet for dealing with a shitty sound guy. They suck. You won't sound how you want. Get a good stage sound and rock out and hope the crowd is in the mood to have fun. If not............welcome to Rock 'n Roll.

 

[LP Freak]

Face the cab backwards. Works great.

This works great to cut volume rolling off the stage but sounds like crap.

 

[JTyson]

I always fluff the sound guy at just about every gig. I compliment them during and after, and always try to have something good to say to them.

Almost every sound guy I encounter is also a player, usually a frustrated musician, and they're kinda sensitive. A little buttering up goes a long way to volume forgiveness. and sometimes gets you some extra consideration from them.

This^
Unless we were using our own PA and our own FOH guy, he knew how to get it done properly. course, that was 30 years ago and everything was LOUD

 

[messenger]

I usually just angle my cab a bit so it's not beaming straight at the sound desk. Seems to be good enough. They seem fine as long as they aren't getting blasted directly.

 

[LP Freak]

I usually just angle my cab a bit so it's not beaming straight at the sound desk. Seems to be good enough. They seem fine as long as they aren't getting blasted directly.

I agree. I've even pushed mine off to the side some so points at the back of the PA stack

 

[thiswaythatway]

If you plan on battling the sound guy you'll never win. Instead of facing the cab backwards just make sure you're not aiming your cab at the sound guy.

 

[reverymike]

Face the cab backwards. Works great.

This works great to cut volume rolling off the stage but sounds like crap.

It might sound bad to you, but to everyone else, it'll be fine. A mic'd cab is going to sound the same regardless of the direction it's pointing. Plus, you can turn up and not deal with getting beamed from the speakers -- add a little in your monitor, and you're good to go.

 

[skoora]

Raise the cab so it's more in your face. Milk crates etc. You won't need to be as loud and you'll still get the feedback and response you need.

 

[Riggins1966]

not pointing at the sound guy is club gig 101. If you're blasting directly at the sound guy there 100% no chance of being in the mix.

Over the years I've come to terms with settling for less than stellar stage sound. My #1 concern is that it is great for the crowd. I do a wireless walk around every set (like someone else mentioned here), because as the crowd density changes, so does the FOH sound. It's kind of how I judge a sound man's ability to adapt.

 

[Mark Day]

4x12's are very directional, if it's pointing at your butt then it's also usually pointing at the sound guy's face. Tilt the cab so it is pointing at your head(and above the Soundguy's). Also aim away from the mixing area.
Using something like a Palmer PDI-09 can ensure a strong signal to the board without the need of a SM57 that the soundguy just pointed at the floor.

Beam Blockers can really help disperse the sound and take away the harshness that occurs right at the soundguy's head.

If you have separate monitor mixes then ask to have guitar in your wedge.

I bought the band PA and did our own sound, zero issues.

Other suggestions above helped keep me in the soundguy's good books. I was often asked to turn up.

Mark

 

[guitarmike]

I bought the band PA and did our own sound, zero issues.
Mark

Problem solved....Hope you make enough to recoup the cost of the pa.

 

[Badronald]

Face the cab backwards. Works great.

This works great to cut volume rolling off the stage but sounds like crap.

It might sound bad to you, but to everyone else, it'll be fine. A mic'd cab is going to sound the same regardless of the direction it's pointing. Plus, you can turn up and not deal with getting beamed from the speakers -- add a little in your monitor, and you're good to go.

Yup. I'm a player that uses volume and proximity to the cab to get feedback and this still works for me. Volume is the key.
Another thing is I might just throw a rectangle SKB guitar case in front of the cab. It's high enough to block the beaming but low enough so the sound comes over the top and I can get all the effects I want.
There are a few solutions. One of them is not, the sound guy can suck it. I love to say it, but it's better if he's your friend.

 

[Mark Day]

I bought the band PA and did our own sound, zero issues.
Mark

Problem solved....Hope you make enough to recoup the cost of the pa.

Instead of renting PA's from sound companies, my band paid me a small amount each week for several years to rent mine which saved us tons and made the band members more money. Add the money I made renting the system and running sound for other bands and I easily made my initial investment x4.

I learned early on that the sound company made all the money from my band. I just decided to be the sound company.

Mark

 

[dirtyfunkg]

I used to work for a craft beer company when I was gigging a lot more, so I would make it a point to contact the venue/engineer a few days in advance and ask what kind of beer he liked. I'd show up with a case of beer for him. Worked out especially well when the sound guy did booking--for some reason we'd always get asked back. It did help that we drew reasonably well by their standards, but our sound at those venues was always awesome.

 

[spanny]

Yeah, we usually make it a point to befriend the sound guy and chat it up before talking sound specifics, etc. Obviously being on the good side of a sound guy goes along way.

 

[squank]

The question is this: Is it more important for your guitar cabinet to shake your pants legs from the backline, or is it more important for your band to have a kick-ass mix and sound great through the mains? Are you an amateur or a pro? I hate to sound harsh, but that's the difference. I have run sound for other bands while playing in my own band, and it has taught me a lot about getting my best sound at gigs.

The biggest challenge in live sound with a rock band is in small venues. With a big room or (of course) a stadium show, your stage volume can be crazy loud and the sound guy can work with it. I played a covered amphitheater with an Engl Powerball II on 7 through a 4x12 and the soundguy didn't blink. But let's face it - most of us (me included) aren't playing stadiums or even bigger rooms most of the time. The majority of our shows are in small to mid sized rooms, and you simply cannot get a great live mix in a small room cranking a 20/50/100w tube amp through a cabinet.

Turning the cab around will lower your stage volume, but you won't like the sound much. A plexi shield also helps reduce stage volume, but it often reflects too much sound back toward the drummer and your tone onstage can get funky. Sidewash can sound great, but then you risk overpowering the singer/bass player/other guitarist with your sound.

Guitarists (and drummers) find it hard hearing the facts of life for live sound in a small room, but here it is: Everyone needs to go direct. Everyone.

That includes your drummer (because most drummers don't know what dynamics are). Electronic drums sound amazing now. I can't tell you how many small club gigs I have heard where the unmiked drummer was louder than the rest of the band. Cymbal crashes drowning out everyone else. Going direct, your onstage sound will be pretty good, everyone can get mixed well in the monitors, and if you want to hear yourself more than the sound guy can/will put in your monitor, bring your own wedge and run a second DI signal.

Anyone playing a small room should seriously find a DI system they can live with, be it Kemper, Axe, Digitech RP series, Torpedo, etc. We all complain that we really want the sound of our beloved tube amps when we play live, but it's time to face facts: your great tube amp tone is never, I repeat NEVER translated accurately via the PA in a small room. You can adjust the mic placement all you want, and the sound guy will still EQ you to sound like shit. But with a direct out, most sound guys don't feel the automatic need to EQ you to hell. Just tell 'em you've got it EQ'd internally and they will usually leave your signal alone.

You'll sound better live tweaking decent patches in an RP1000 and giving the sound guy a consistent line-level signal he can work with than you will trying to tame a beast of a tube amp for a small venue.

 

[messenger]

One question I have for any sound guys here why is it a touring band can come to these smaller clubs and crank a Marshall half stack and everything still sounds good and no complaints from the sound guys (have been there for sound checks) yet when us local guys try even turning up a bit we are "WAY too loud" ? Again I RARELY get told I'm to loud (I angle my cab away from sound guy) but my singer who uses a SS 1x12 PEavey combo gets told it all the time to turn down.

 

[spanny]

First and foremost, the overall mix should sound good for the audience. What baffles me is where I could play a small club, set the amp volume to where I am used to (practice level) and have no issues. Show up to play a large outdoor fest with a huge stage, but the sound guy wants my amp volume at nearly 0. I would assume it would be the other way around. Im just looking how I can set myself up for a better level of consistency. (And not relying on a terrible monitor mix to hear myself, which is usually the case)