Stage Volume

[spanny]

Squank - We are actually seriously considering making the switch to Axe FX/In Ears for that very reason. I should look more into the electronic drums, though I doubt our drummer would want to. If drums are the only stage volume we produce, I'm sure that would make a happy sound guy.

 

[Kevin11]

4x12's are very directional, if it's pointing at your butt then it's also usually pointing at the sound guy's face. Tilt the cab so it is pointing at your head(and above the Soundguy's).

Mark, do you, or any of you guys for that matter, know of a decent product for tilting 4x12 cabs? Apart from the Auralex BigTipper and some home-made offerings, I haven't had much luck finding anything. The Auralex deal seems like it's for smaller amps/cabs. Some stages or venues just don't have the room for sidewashing, so tipping back seems like a decent compromise between keeping the big 4x12 sound and getting a good mix without killing anybody. Maybe it's just as easy as taking the back casters off and leaving the front ones on. Never tried that.

I'm an old-school live tube amp guy who's been considering the Axe/Kemper. If I could get half as good a live tone as you get from your Axe recordings Mark, I'd be willing to make a go of it. Gotta feel it and interact with it live though, which is why I've gigged with a tube head and 4x12s all these years. Man, I'd miss pissing our soundguy off and making all the hot girls stand in front of the bass player though.

 

[LP Freak]

4x12's are very directional, if it's pointing at your butt then it's also usually pointing at the sound guy's face. Tilt the cab so it is pointing at your head(and above the Soundguy's).

Mark, do you, or any of you guys for that matter, know of a decent product for tilting 4x12 cabs? Apart from the Auralex BigTipper and some home-made offerings, I haven't had much luck finding anything. The Auralex deal seems like it's for smaller amps/cabs. Some stages or venues just don't have the room for sidewashing, so tipping back seems like a decent compromise between keeping the big 4x12 sound and getting a good mix without killing anybody. Maybe it's just as easy as taking the back casters off and leaving the front ones on. Never tried that.

I'm an old-school live tube amp guy who's been considering the Axe/Kemper. If I could get half as good a live tone as you get from your Axe recordings Mark, I'd be willing to make a go of it. Gotta feel it and interact with it live though, which is why I've gigged with a tube head and 4x12s all these years. Man, I'd miss pissing our soundguy off and making all the hot girls stand in front of the bass player though.

I have both a Kemper and tube amps and sorry but the Kempers just not the same.

 

[Badronald]

The question is this: Is it more important for your guitar cabinet to shake your pants legs from the backline, or is it more important for your band to have a kick-ass mix and sound great through the mains? Are you an amateur or a pro? I hate to sound harsh, but that's the difference. I have run sound for other bands while playing in my own band, and it has taught me a lot about getting my best sound at gigs.

The biggest challenge in live sound with a rock band is in small venues. With a big room or (of course) a stadium show, your stage volume can be crazy loud and the sound guy can work with it. I played a covered amphitheater with an Engl Powerball II on 7 through a 4x12 and the soundguy didn't blink. But let's face it - most of us (me included) aren't playing stadiums or even bigger rooms most of the time. The majority of our shows are in small to mid sized rooms, and you simply cannot get a great live mix in a small room cranking a 20/50/100w tube amp through a cabinet.

Turning the cab around will lower your stage volume, but you won't like the sound much. A plexi shield also helps reduce stage volume, but it often reflects too much sound back toward the drummer and your tone onstage can get funky. Sidewash can sound great, but then you risk overpowering the singer/bass player/other guitarist with your sound.

Guitarists (and drummers) find it hard hearing the facts of life for live sound in a small room, but here it is: Everyone needs to go direct. Everyone.

That includes your drummer (because most drummers don't know what dynamics are). Electronic drums sound amazing now. I can't tell you how many small club gigs I have heard where the unmiked drummer was louder than the rest of the band. Cymbal crashes drowning out everyone else. Going direct, your onstage sound will be pretty good, everyone can get mixed well in the monitors, and if you want to hear yourself more than the sound guy can/will put in your monitor, bring your own wedge and run a second DI signal.

Anyone playing a small room should seriously find a DI system they can live with, be it Kemper, Axe, Digitech RP series, Torpedo, etc. We all complain that we really want the sound of our beloved tube amps when we play live, but it's time to face facts: your great tube amp tone is never, I repeat NEVER translated accurately via the PA in a small room. You can adjust the mic placement all you want, and the sound guy will still EQ you to sound like shit. But with a direct out, most sound guys don't feel the automatic need to EQ you to hell. Just tell 'em you've got it EQ'd internally and they will usually leave your signal alone.

You'll sound better live tweaking decent patches in an RP1000 and giving the sound guy a consistent line-level signal he can work with than you will trying to tame a beast of a tube amp for a small venue.

"Everyone needs to go direct. Everyone."
Stunning.
I've been gigging large and small venues for decades successfully with large tube amps and have rarely had a problem with volume and tone.
You talk as if you have definitive answers and absolute solutions to problems that exist if you ARE an amateur and surround yourself with amateur support staff.
I feel no need to purchase a direct solution and likely never will. Tube amps are fine and work in most situations just fine.
I will say, players need to know their gear inside and out and use it accordingly. Big rooms, small rooms. And if you show up and there is a backline, you need to be prepared to deal with that on the fly as well. Appropriate pedals, etc.

If you said, hey, there are alternate solutions these days, the Torpedo is fantastic, it may work for some guys for certain situations, then good, but......

 

[Racerxrated]

The question is this: Is it more important for your guitar cabinet to shake your pants legs from the backline, or is it more important for your band to have a kick-ass mix and sound great through the mains? Are you an amateur or a pro? I hate to sound harsh, but that's the difference. I have run sound for other bands while playing in my own band, and it has taught me a lot about getting my best sound at gigs.

The biggest challenge in live sound with a rock band is in small venues. With a big room or (of course) a stadium show, your stage volume can be crazy loud and the sound guy can work with it. I played a covered amphitheater with an Engl Powerball II on 7 through a 4x12 and the soundguy didn't blink. But let's face it - most of us (me included) aren't playing stadiums or even bigger rooms most of the time. The majority of our shows are in small to mid sized rooms, and you simply cannot get a great live mix in a small room cranking a 20/50/100w tube amp through a cabinet.

Turning the cab around will lower your stage volume, but you won't like the sound much. A plexi shield also helps reduce stage volume, but it often reflects too much sound back toward the drummer and your tone onstage can get funky. Sidewash can sound great, but then you risk overpowering the singer/bass player/other guitarist with your sound.

Guitarists (and drummers) find it hard hearing the facts of life for live sound in a small room, but here it is: Everyone needs to go direct. Everyone.

That includes your drummer (because most drummers don't know what dynamics are). Electronic drums sound amazing now. I can't tell you how many small club gigs I have heard where the unmiked drummer was louder than the rest of the band. Cymbal crashes drowning out everyone else. Going direct, your onstage sound will be pretty good, everyone can get mixed well in the monitors, and if you want to hear yourself more than the sound guy can/will put in your monitor, bring your own wedge and run a second DI signal.

Anyone playing a small room should seriously find a DI system they can live with, be it Kemper, Axe, Digitech RP series, Torpedo, etc. We all complain that we really want the sound of our beloved tube amps when we play live, but it's time to face facts: your great tube amp tone is never, I repeat NEVER translated accurately via the PA in a small room. You can adjust the mic placement all you want, and the sound guy will still EQ you to sound like shit. But with a direct out, most sound guys don't feel the automatic need to EQ you to hell. Just tell 'em you've got it EQ'd internally and they will usually leave your signal alone.

You'll sound better live tweaking decent patches in an RP1000 and giving the sound guy a consistent line-level signal he can work with than you will trying to tame a beast of a tube amp for a small venue.

Nope. Wrong answer.

 

[thiswaythatway]

The question is this: Is it more important for your guitar cabinet to shake your pants legs from the backline, or is it more important for your band to have a kick-ass mix and sound great through the mains? Are you an amateur or a pro? I hate to sound harsh, but that's the difference. I have run sound for other bands while playing in my own band, and it has taught me a lot about getting my best sound at gigs.

The biggest challenge in live sound with a rock band is in small venues. With a big room or (of course) a stadium show, your stage volume can be crazy loud and the sound guy can work with it. I played a covered amphitheater with an Engl Powerball II on 7 through a 4x12 and the soundguy didn't blink. But let's face it - most of us (me included) aren't playing stadiums or even bigger rooms most of the time. The majority of our shows are in small to mid sized rooms, and you simply cannot get a great live mix in a small room cranking a 20/50/100w tube amp through a cabinet.

Turning the cab around will lower your stage volume, but you won't like the sound much. A plexi shield also helps reduce stage volume, but it often reflects too much sound back toward the drummer and your tone onstage can get funky. Sidewash can sound great, but then you risk overpowering the singer/bass player/other guitarist with your sound.

Guitarists (and drummers) find it hard hearing the facts of life for live sound in a small room, but here it is: Everyone needs to go direct. Everyone.

That includes your drummer (because most drummers don't know what dynamics are). Electronic drums sound amazing now. I can't tell you how many small club gigs I have heard where the unmiked drummer was louder than the rest of the band. Cymbal crashes drowning out everyone else. Going direct, your onstage sound will be pretty good, everyone can get mixed well in the monitors, and if you want to hear yourself more than the sound guy can/will put in your monitor, bring your own wedge and run a second DI signal.

Anyone playing a small room should seriously find a DI system they can live with, be it Kemper, Axe, Digitech RP series, Torpedo, etc. We all complain that we really want the sound of our beloved tube amps when we play live, but it's time to face facts: your great tube amp tone is never, I repeat NEVER translated accurately via the PA in a small room. You can adjust the mic placement all you want, and the sound guy will still EQ you to sound like shit. But with a direct out, most sound guys don't feel the automatic need to EQ you to hell. Just tell 'em you've got it EQ'd internally and they will usually leave your signal alone.

You'll sound better live tweaking decent patches in an RP1000 and giving the sound guy a consistent line-level signal he can work with than you will trying to tame a beast of a tube amp for a small venue.

I used a Mesa Horizontal cab with V30's and it worked great with more than a few soundguys just sticking a mic on it and the thing always sounded great. I stopped dragging a 4x12 because the Mesa V30's were extremely easy to get a great sound from with a mic. And please, a RP1000? Most new amps have great master volumes and solo volumes boosts so getting volume under control is a LOT easier than it used to be a with non master Marshalls or even JCM800's.

 

[guitarmike]

I bought the band PA and did our own sound, zero issues.
Mark

Problem solved....Hope you make enough to recoup the cost of the pa.

Instead of renting PA's from sound companies, my band paid me a small amount each week for several years to rent mine which saved us tons and made the band members more money. Add the money I made renting the system and running sound for other bands and I easily made my initial investment x4.

I learned early on that the sound company made all the money from my band. I just decided to be the sound company.

Mark

Agreed, the best bands I played in owned our own pa. It requires and up front investment and everyone becomes a roadie.

 

[1meanplexi]

Tried the backwards cab bit, per the sound guys recommendation and I hated it. If your a player that uses a lot of controlled feedback in your technique, the reversed facing cab kills 90% of that. It may make things sound better out in the crowd but it will definitely affect your sound and feel on stage and that can transfer into affecting the way you play(in a bad way).
Another thing is when I see pro acts performing live, rarely do I see anyone doing the backwards cabs bit.

This^^^^. Plus. I CANNOT stand the way my rig sounds coming through the monitors. I backline my 4x12 and run my 2x12 (like a monitor) up front on an angle. Do this and you will find a sweet spot that you never knew existed !

 

[Kemper-VS-Fractal]

Sorry, but in small venues your cranked valve amp facing directly at the audience sounds like shit.

If you need to manage the volume of your amp but still crank it, face it away from the crowd or use an attenuator. It's either that or turn it down.

If you have it cranked facing the audience, you'll think your a big man and you've got an awesome tone, however you won't have any in the PA and everyone else will think you sound shit and your band sucks. Up to you.

 

[JTyson]

The question is this: Is it more important for your guitar cabinet to shake your pants legs from the backline, or is it more important for your band to have a kick-ass mix and sound great through the mains? Are you an amateur or a pro? I hate to sound harsh, but that's the difference. I have run sound for other bands while playing in my own band, and it has taught me a lot about getting my best sound at gigs.

The biggest challenge in live sound with a rock band is in small venues. With a big room or (of course) a stadium show, your stage volume can be crazy loud and the sound guy can work with it. I played a covered amphitheater with an Engl Powerball II on 7 through a 4x12 and the soundguy didn't blink. But let's face it - most of us (me included) aren't playing stadiums or even bigger rooms most of the time. The majority of our shows are in small to mid sized rooms, and you simply cannot get a great live mix in a small room cranking a 20/50/100w tube amp through a cabinet.

Turning the cab around will lower your stage volume, but you won't like the sound much. A plexi shield also helps reduce stage volume, but it often reflects too much sound back toward the drummer and your tone onstage can get funky. Sidewash can sound great, but then you risk overpowering the singer/bass player/other guitarist with your sound.

Guitarists (and drummers) find it hard hearing the facts of life for live sound in a small room, but here it is: Everyone needs to go direct. Everyone.

That includes your drummer (because most drummers don't know what dynamics are). Electronic drums sound amazing now. I can't tell you how many small club gigs I have heard where the unmiked drummer was louder than the rest of the band. Cymbal crashes drowning out everyone else. Going direct, your onstage sound will be pretty good, everyone can get mixed well in the monitors, and if you want to hear yourself more than the sound guy can/will put in your monitor, bring your own wedge and run a second DI signal.

Anyone playing a small room should seriously find a DI system they can live with, be it Kemper, Axe, Digitech RP series, Torpedo, etc. We all complain that we really want the sound of our beloved tube amps when we play live, but it's time to face facts: your great tube amp tone is never, I repeat NEVER translated accurately via the PA in a small room. You can adjust the mic placement all you want, and the sound guy will still EQ you to sound like shit. But with a direct out, most sound guys don't feel the automatic need to EQ you to hell. Just tell 'em you've got it EQ'd internally and they will usually leave your signal alone.

You'll sound better live tweaking decent patches in an RP1000 and giving the sound guy a consistent line-level signal he can work with than you will trying to tame a beast of a tube amp for a small venue.

Hmmm...
I dont know, I agree with some of that, but we gigged for years with our sound guy and had it worked out were we had a decent stage volume and a fantastic FOH sound with miked cabs and drums. Our bass player ran direct and miked both. Our sound guy was a pro who knew how to set up a room and the variables from years of trial and error. Our problems usually stemmed from using someone else's FOH guy and PA, and not because he did not know how to get it right, he would make sure we did not sound as good as whoever came after us (his band)
We got compliments all the time on our sound out of the PA when our guy was at the helm. Yes, there are easier ways to make things more controllable today, but that stuff did not exist back then

 

[Racerxrated]

Years ago in the early 90s we signed with an agency out of Mpls, GMA I think? It would be my only venture into full time gigging, did it for about a year or so. We had to do a 'showcase' gig where agents and sound guys would give us tips on stage presence, stage sound etc. We had our own PA, small one but enough for most clubs and the big thing I remember is number one, the drummer has to play softer and number 2 the amps are always side washed. If you have a loud drummer you will always need to turn up to hear over him. We never had a very loud stage volume and those clubs that had their own PA never complained about stage volume. But it all starts with the drummer.... Now my drummer is very loud but we gig so little, it doesn't matter anymore. My sound guy took me out of the mix last night...

 

[Racerxrated]

The question is this: Is it more important for your guitar cabinet to shake your pants legs from the backline, or is it more important for your band to have a kick-ass mix and sound great through the mains? Are you an amateur or a pro? I hate to sound harsh, but that's the difference. I have run sound for other bands while playing in my own band, and it has taught me a lot about getting my best sound at gigs.

The biggest challenge in live sound with a rock band is in small venues. With a big room or (of course) a stadium show, your stage volume can be crazy loud and the sound guy can work with it. I played a covered amphitheater with an Engl Powerball II on 7 through a 4x12 and the soundguy didn't blink. But let's face it - most of us (me included) aren't playing stadiums or even bigger rooms most of the time. The majority of our shows are in small to mid sized rooms, and you simply cannot get a great live mix in a small room cranking a 20/50/100w tube amp through a cabinet.

Turning the cab around will lower your stage volume, but you won't like the sound much. A plexi shield also helps reduce stage volume, but it often reflects too much sound back toward the drummer and your tone onstage can get funky. Sidewash can sound great, but then you risk overpowering the singer/bass player/other guitarist with your sound.

Guitarists (and drummers) find it hard hearing the facts of life for live sound in a small room, but here it is: Everyone needs to go direct. Everyone.

That includes your drummer (because most drummers don't know what dynamics are). Electronic drums sound amazing now. I can't tell you how many small club gigs I have heard where the unmiked drummer was louder than the rest of the band. Cymbal crashes drowning out everyone else. Going direct, your onstage sound will be pretty good, everyone can get mixed well in the monitors, and if you want to hear yourself more than the sound guy can/will put in your monitor, bring your own wedge and run a second DI signal.

Anyone playing a small room should seriously find a DI system they can live with, be it Kemper, Axe, Digitech RP series, Torpedo, etc. We all complain that we really want the sound of our beloved tube amps when we play live, but it's time to face facts: your great tube amp tone is never, I repeat NEVER translated accurately via the PA in a small room. You can adjust the mic placement all you want, and the sound guy will still EQ you to sound like shit. But with a direct out, most sound guys don't feel the automatic need to EQ you to hell. Just tell 'em you've got it EQ'd internally and they will usually leave your signal alone.

You'll sound better live tweaking decent patches in an RP1000 and giving the sound guy a consistent line-level signal he can work with than you will trying to tame a beast of a tube amp for a small venue.

Hmmm...
I dont know, I agree with some of that, but we gigged for years with our sound guy and had it worked out were we had a decent stage volume and a fantastic FOH sound with miked cabs and drums. Our bass player ran direct and miked both. Our sound guy was a pro who knew how to set up a room and the variables from years of trial and error. Our problems usually stemmed from using someone else's FOH guy and PA, and not because he did not know how to get it right, he would make sure we did not sound as good as whoever came after us (his band)
We got compliments all the time on our sound out of the PA when our guy was at the helm. Yes, there are easier ways to make things more controllable today, but that stuff did not exist back then

Aaah....the old "let's make the opening band sound like shit" routine.. yeah that happened once, we opened for a band that had some regional success with a song or two on the radio here back in the late 80s....we had really good 3 part harmonies and they hardly made it out of the PA all set...I have that show on VHS (lol) and we're playing 'Feel your love tonight' and you can see us singing but the parts weren't coming out...apparently we were a threat as 22 year olds to these guys who actually had songs on the radio....

 

[stephen sawall]

I have my rig at the same volume as the drummer unmic and never get asked to turn down....I usually get asked to turn up. I don't do that either.

Most sound people are useless..... Some are OK.... A few are great.
This view is based on 35 years of doing live gigs..... And shopping over 6000 bands of every style of music.

 

[Racerxrated]

I have my rig at the same volume as the drummer unmic and never get asked to turn down....I usually get asked to turn up. I don't do that either.
Most sound people are useless..... Some are OK.... A few are great.
This view is based on 35 years of doing live gigs..... And shopping over 6000 bands of every style of music.

Yup..sound guys like to mix their own way unfortunately. We have a guy that does a great job but he understands how to mix. But he's a musician. And yeah, have to be as loud as the drummer. Otherwise I'd have to put the cab up at ear level to hear myself.

 

[rlord1974]

One question I have for any sound guys here why is it a touring band can come to these smaller clubs and crank a Marshall half stack and everything still sounds good and no complaints from the sound guys (have been there for sound checks) yet when us local guys try even turning up a bit we are "WAY too loud" ?

The answer is in your question.

Touring bands get away with it because the audience is there to focus on the music and they want to hear a loud, rock show. The audience is not at the club to have a few drinks with friends, talk about how their week went and generally mix and mingle, which is what they are doing at a local band's show.

Fundamental difference.

 

[Oblivion DC]

One question I have for any sound guys here why is it a touring band can come to these smaller clubs and crank a Marshall half stack and everything still sounds good and no complaints from the sound guys (have been there for sound checks) yet when us local guys try even turning up a bit we are "WAY too loud" ?

The answer is in your question.

Touring bands get away with it because the audience is there to focus on the music and they want to hear a loud, rock show. The audience is not at the club to have a few drinks with friends, talk about how their week went and generally mix and mingle, which is what they are doing at a local band's show.

Fundamental difference.

That's Horse shit.
The local band that's sold 300 tickets and their opener that sold 150 are not pulling that crowd as background music for the Sloppy Saturday Sex Ritual. If the floor is packed and people are facing the stage it's a pretty safe bet that they're here to see the bands.
I guess it's different if you're playing covers to 25 people for beer and pizza or folks are eating dinner while you're playing. Meh.

 

[Racerxrated]

One question I have for any sound guys here why is it a touring band can come to these smaller clubs and crank a Marshall half stack and everything still sounds good and no complaints from the sound guys (have been there for sound checks) yet when us local guys try even turning up a bit we are "WAY too loud" ?

The answer is in your question.

Touring bands get away with it because the audience is there to focus on the music and they want to hear a loud, rock show. The audience is not at the club to have a few drinks with friends, talk about how their week went and generally mix and mingle, which is what they are doing at a local band's show.

Fundamental difference.

That's Horse shit.
The local band that's sold 300 tickets and their opener that sold 150 are not pulling that crowd as background music for the Sloppy Saturday Sex Ritual. If the floor is packed and people are facing the stage it's a pretty safe bet that they're here to see the bands.
I guess it's different if you're playing covers to 25 people for beer and pizza or folks are eating dinner while you're playing. Meh.

Again, you are talking about a rock show on a smaller scale. I just played my once every 6 weeks gig...and I had to play quietly with my rig. By the last set I could turn it up....but people go to dance and mingle. They expect live music but also to hear conversations. Another club in town, House of Rock, has original bands and you can crank it because people expect that. I played with a Maiden tribute band a year ago there and was able to crank my Marshall...great fun but I usually get to do that at home....when everyone's gone. Your show with an opener is like a House of Rock gig...not the local club that has cover bands every weekend.

 

[anomaly]

A lot of sound guys don't seem to understand that certain amps need volume to sound right!?? They don't tell the drummer to play quieter, do they? and he has the loudest stage volume in a lot of cases. If he knows what he is doing it should not be a problem to balance all the levels and have a great mix, regardless of a loud guitar.

I remember playing a gig with my Mesa Mark III, and the sound guy told me to turn down. Dumbass fucked up my gig, cause that amp is very sensitive to volume changes (actually all vol, tone changes), and I couldn't match up the clean channel volume well at that volumes, or make it sound how I wanted... and was tinkering with the damn thing all night at those pitiful, pansy ass, old fart volume. If I had the R2 mod it would have been fine, but nope.... that amp needed some good stage volume for the clean and lead to balance out.

 

[guitarmike]

If we keep the discussion on small bar bands, the audience will not know if you play through a kazoo or a $4,000 rig. They hear "rock" sounds and clean sounds. I know there are exceptions but not many. That said, I play better if I sound better (to my ears any ways). Since we agree the sound guy will most likely do what he wants and you may not even be heard out the mains, you have 3 choices. 1.Side wash with the cab near you so you can get the sustain, etc. you want and you will sound good in your ears. 2. Put the cab as far back as you can and aim it to the front and hope for the best, adjusting volume per the sound guy. 3. The band owns the pa and hires the sound guy. This is the best option but you need to be gigging more than once or twice per year to make that worth while.

Up until recently the church I play at was not mic'ing the amps, just the vocals (we are a 3 piece). We set the levels, have a few trusted people tell us if the sound is ok and leave it alone after that. This works perfectly when you are in charge of sound. I played in stereo to fill out the sound, the drummer kept the volume down, and we sounded good. I wish playing in clubs were that easy.

 

[BrentSSL]

Anymore you have to have a draw as a local band it's either tribute or original playing in a typical cover band isn't what it used to be