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Amp_chaser
Active member
zeke mentions that eddie used g12h30 pre rola then for the tours he had to use blackbacks to fill the new cabs so this is confirmed. Thank a lot for your insights too.
Strong hints that Van Halen 1 68 lead was just a slave amp and not the main amp.
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
You could be right about everything, or nothing, or something in between. My point is that it's really not that hard to get quite close with a good player - Plexi - M loaded cab - SM57 or two. That's just one path, there are many that get the vibe in minutes flat.
Once you accept this it leaves a whole lot of time for more important things in life, like obsessing over tubes and pickup magnets.
mentoneman
Well-known member
now that would be a cool story…who originally purchased/owned THE amp prior to EVH..?
mentoneman
Well-known member
i’m definitely not trying to claim i know more about anything vh, beyond what i learned through my experiences and the web. i got close enough 20 yrs ago, checked the box, and went “cool..next.”
same with SRV, EJ, Robben Ford, Landau…
admired their tones, had fun chasing, got close enough, learned alot and always ended up in the same place.
“Now what..?” I’m not them nor plan to assume their identities in a tribute or cover band.
So i take away elements of their playing and inject that and some of their tonal DNA into my style/rig/sounds. the end.
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Meanjoegreene
Well-known member
That’s me
Not necessarily nailing tones…just the main characteristics of the tones that let me pull off the vibe, techniques, ect.
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harddriver
Well-known member
Zeke can explain it clearly all he wants, as many other people have over the years. Jose modded does not mean it had a cascaded preamp. Jose modded could even mean a 330uf cap on V2A and or a line out that Jose put in there or his load box setup (even though no one knows when that cap showed up) and that appears to be the case. Mike Soldano also stated Ed had a Super Bass that he loved and it had a 25uf cap across V2A instead of a 330uf cap. The people closest to Jose all say it was a stock amp, Dave Friedman, Mark Cameron. Then there is Mike Soldano, John Suhr, Chris Merren and a myriad of others for over the years.
I have clearly explained the logic used why I feel the amp in question for VH1, 78, 79 tours were stock, stockish two gain stage plexi and superleads, the 1977 VH1 ROOM MIC cips of Jamie's Cryin, Eruption and early LIVE 78 tour clips clearly show what the amp sounded like BEFORE the studio processing, period end of story. Those who own or have heard a great plexi/superlead know that's what they are hearing all the characteristics are there. As good as any cascaded 3 gain stage amp sounds( think 2203) they sound and feel different to a variaced cranked two gain stage Plexi/Superlead, it just does. You can live in the land of denial for as long you like, there is a reason players gravitate to cranked a Plexi/Superlead over a 2203. You are clearly commited to your theories and that's fine. When you have a cascaded clip of an amp that has all of the correct characteristics of those VH1 mic and 78tour clips post them up. I have not heard one that sounds more correct than an actual plexi. The Metro amp EVH task force tried every cascade circuit known to man and most of them happily went back to a variaced plexi/superlead. If you don't want to use a variac and the whole setup then yes, a cascade is easlier to work with, get a damn good sound but it will not have all the characteristics that the plexi/superlead has. At a certain point close enough just has to work as even you will never replicate the VH1 recorded tone perfectly because that complete recipe is lost to time.
Oh BTW Chris Merren already explained what the most probable use of the second varaic was used for 20 years ago, it's interesting, is he correct? We will never know. Did I try it out with two vintage Ohmite variacs that I own15 years ago, I sure did... Was it interesting? Yes it was. Was it 100% conclusive? It was not. You can dig around o the Metro forum if you would like to read abou it.
Even if you build this magical Jose cascaded amp, without knowing exactly what was done in the studio for VH-1 the best you can hope for is the amp to sound similar to those VH1 Room mic and 78 tour clips.
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harddriver
Well-known member
While I think Ed used the pre-rola greenbacks early on, John Philips from LA design pedal boards has stated he had heard Ed used 55HZ greenback/blackbacks and 55Hz 12H-30's. I can confirm I do like the 55HZ 12H-30's for Ed stuff. I do prefer them to my 78 25 watt/75Hz Blackback cabinet. The greenback/blackback 25 watters really need volume to sound their best but they can and do sound good.
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harddriver
Well-known member
He has and does completely gloss over the VH1 room mics and 1977 live clips as to how the amps sounded without studio manipulation. You yourself have played real Jose amps and you as many do feel a great two gain stage plexi/superlead is the basis for that tone.
mentoneman
Well-known member
it’s all about the vibe!
i recorded my then 18 yr old drummer son (he’s 35 now!) and i jamming an incorrect version of unchained
in our garage with a couple of sm 58s into a roland vs-880 digital recorderfor that sound i pulled 2 tubes out of my peacemaker, and my chain was tyler/holmes 450, dynacomp->tonebone classic->h&k replex->peacemaker/hotplate into my bogner ubercab
it wasn’t “every hair on EVH’s chin” close and we screwed up the breaks/punches part i’ve still never bothered to learn properly
but it gave me the close enough vibe i was after at the time.the main lesson i learned from that rig was the louder i ran it, the less front end OD i needed and the better it sounded. eddie burned through crap because he played LOUD.
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Amp_chaser
Active member
how could zeke clark
Zeke clearly states in this audio interview on youtube that the amp was fully rebuilt to ed's needs and that it was something competely different from what other players had. He states it had a variac feeding the ot transformer which means there was another power section rectifier and filtering dedicated to the OT transformer only. So if we listen to his testimony this means that i was wrong that it was not a slave setup but that the second amp was used as a power amp for the OT transformer and that it was also under variac. As i told you i discovered that testimony yesterday so i have to update findings... the amp was completely rebuilt and modded and it had an external power supply exclusively for the OT and it was controled threw a second variac.
zeke said that the mod evolved threw the years and that corroborates with that rudy leiren said that a lot of things were done to the marshall over the years.
He also states that pluging pedals in front of the amp would make it blow and that they had to adapt every effect and racks to the signal of the amp he even states that wireless units couldn't handle the signal except a sony one that they even had to mod. Just listen to the interview.
this corroborates with the testimonies of josé, Rudy Leiren, Kevin dugan, Pete frampton, david lee roth and many others.
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harddriver
Well-known member
If this was the case after all of his amps were lost, including 12301 coming back from Japan he would have sounded like shit playing through unmodded Marshalls, yet his sound didn't change and some might say his tone actually improved from July to December of 1978.
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Amp_chaser
Active member
The amps were recovered, it's even said. In the pictures of the 1978 tour in japan you can see that the 68 lead was there. Moreover you can do wonders using eq's and slaving that was what was done in japan. That's probably why jim gaustaad sounds amazing... lots of eq... There are multiple ways to get a tone. Now we are talking about the original one. I mean did dave friedman, john suhr, mike soldano, fryette or jim gaustaad were any part of the real vh crew ? No. Did they saw the amp during its glory days ? No. Zeke Clark was and he knew about electronics and amps he inspected those amps and add full access to ed's gear... he was the replacement for rudy leiren. Moreover there are many elements that add to his credibility.
one thing you have to ask is : Is the live setup the same as the recording one ? Zeke says that the setup is not stable that if something is off it blows. In my opinion the mods were used in the studio and for touring they probably removed the ot mod which is just unsoldering and soldering wires...
One of the things adding to his credibility is that he says that josé and ed were trying to improve the amp to release a new kind of amps. this coroborates with what dave friedman said about josé's mysterious amp that disappeared :
https://www.guitarworld.com/news/dave-friedman-jose-arredondo-eddie-van-halen-mystery-amp
He explains clearly why the amp was blowing up. He explains that the gear had to be modded to ed's amp signal. This makes much more sense when you see how unusual things were done and tested threw time.
he also says that eddie made custom pickups : taking half coils of his fav humbuckers and mixing them. That would explain why we struggle again so much getting something close to his own tone. Everything was custom made to sound completely different from others.
See he was sucessfull because he also took time to mod everything he had to sound different. Nowadays players buy the same gear and they all sound alike it's like sheeps...
believe me that a lot of successfull guitar legends had mods and cutom humbuckers and we don't even know or suspect anything about it. But it is profitable to some companies to see guitar heroes with their gear so even if it is modded people associate this artist with that gear and they just buy it...While in fact it's their gear but altered and modded.
Moreover if those artists get endorsed they make money and they don't have to reveal their secrets it's a win win for them and those companies. It keeps their ways of getting their custom tones under cover.
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Anje
Member
"... or the fingers "
I love old G12H; my preferred cab has been for a very long time a '68 slant with early lead G12H.
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harddriver
Well-known member
Yes Ed got his amps back six months later according to an interview. So from June 27, 1978 until sometime in December 1978, Ed was using whatever Marshalls he could get his hands on and Musicman HD130 HD 65 amps were used as power amp and all the video evidence we have backs this up. I've covered this numerous times and somehow you have missed the entire point. This is just getting tiring...I've made my logical points backed them up with actual evidence both video and audio and laid out the timeline.
https://www.themightyvanhalen.net/1978/03/03/1978/
I posted both videos earlier in this thread. The Niagara Falls and Selland Arean shows....... Per Rudy Leiren they have to grab whatever amps they could find and you can see most were newer JMP amps.
https://www.themightyvanhalen.net/1978/03/03/1978/
| June 10, 1978 | London | Hammersmith Odeon | |
| June 17, 1978 | Tokyo | Japan | Tokyo Cultural Hall |
| June 19, 1978 | |||
| June 21, 1978 | Nakano Sun Plaza Hall | ||
| June 22, 1978 | |||
| June 24, 1978 | Nagoya | Nagoya Civic Assembly Hall | |
| June 25, 1978 | Osaka | Festival Hall | |
| June 27, 1978 | Osaka Cultural Hall | ||
| July 1, 1978 | Dallas |
[th]
Asia
[/th][th]
North America
[/th]| September 1, 1978 | Hampton | Hampton Coliseum |
| September 2, 1978 | Pittsburgh | Pittsburgh Civic Arena |
| September 4, 1978 | South Yarmouth | Cape Cod Coliseum |
| September 5, 1978 | Portland | Cumberland County Civic Center |
| September 7, 1978 | Utica | Utica Memorial Auditorium |
| September 8, 1978 | Niagara Falls | Niagara Falls Convention Center [65] |
| September 9, 1978 | Baltimore | Baltimore Civic Center |
| September 10, 1978 | New Haven | New Haven Coliseum |
| September 12, 1978 | Indianapolis | Indianapolis Convention Center |
| September 14, 1978 | Detroit | Cobo Arena |
| September 15, 1978 | Richfield | Richfield Coliseum |
| September 16, 1978 | St. Louis | Checkerdome |
| September 17, 1978 | Kansas City | Kansas City Municipal Auditorium |
| September 18, 1978 | Tulsa | Tulsa Assembly Center |
| September 22, 1978 | Fresno | Selland Arena |
| September 23, 1978 | Anaheim | Anaheim Stadium (Summerfest 1978) |
| September 25, 1978 | Bakersfield | Bakersfield Civic Auditorium |
| September 27, 1978 | Portland | Portland Memorial Coliseum |
| September 28, 1978 | Spokane | Spokane Coliseum |
| September 29, 1978 | Seattle | Seattle Center Arena |
I posted both videos earlier in this thread. The Niagara Falls and Selland Arean shows....... Per Rudy Leiren they have to grab whatever amps they could find and you can see most were newer JMP amps.
Attachments
Mike Oxhuge
Member
Logic and reason will get you nowhere with the op. For him it is a religion that a stock auperlead can't get these tones.
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Amp_chaser
Active member
Mike i'm sorry it's not about a religion but over the years lots of fake myths were tied to van halen moreover because the amps gurus said they saw a stock amp people believed it without any questionning.
you are talking about logic and reason ? that's what i'm often using even if i go into a lot of suppositions. for example the picture that dave friedman showed us of eddie's amp shows us a hacked marshall amp with half of the preamp board with non stock components and some turrets full of solder... While many amp gurus said it was stock and solder joints non touched :
bottom is a sock 68 lead and top eddie's....
Please know that zeke clark was the official van halen tech after replacing rudy leiren. And that since eddie's death many testimonies came forth saying josé modded the amp. Just listen to this video interview i put it exactly where it matters. Zeke says that 68 lead has been rebuilt and that there was a variac on the OT transformer. José did say the same thing that he and ed spent many years building the amp :
ossie ahsen built a similar mod on his number one plexi by using big resistors on the OT for youtuber martin smith :
that's closer than any superlead out there.
it's not the exact same mod but alike and really tuned down to keep stability. because ed's setup probably would be a nightmare to maintain.
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Amp_chaser
Active member
as i told you live and recording setups might not be the same. or the for shows and tours ed could bring the amp back to "stock" you just have unsolder and resolder some wires if the ot was wired as zeke said.
you don't use an unstable setup live unless you're crazy. In the studio it's okay. Rudy said it he used to blow 2-3 Ot per week. After that they changed the setup.
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harddriver
Well-known member
I listened to the entire interview how are you applying this to anything VH1 related? Zeke is describing most likely the 5150 tour amps setup as the Roland SDE3000 production didn't start until 1983 and the Lexicon PC70 was 1985.
The original Roland SDE-3000 Digital Delay was released in
1983. Production of this model ran until 1985
The Lexicon PCM70 was manufactured from 1985 through the early 1990s. It was introduced in 1985 as a digital effects processor, particularly noted for its reverb capabilities. The unit remained in production for roughly 7-8 years, with some sources suggesting it was discontinued around 1992 or 1993
The amp at 7 minutes he is talking about is probably the one Jose and him were designing together and it never saw the light of day.
You keep conflating information in these interviews of later setups with VH1. You are cherry picking information and applying it where it doesn't belong because it fits your narrative.
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Amp_chaser
Active member
first did you watched part one and the beginning of part 2 ? rudy leiren is leaving and zeke has to update all of eddies gear because rudy didn't know a lot about electronics he has to update everything and service it to stop failing during shows. he is working on the rack units but he has to bring josé on the team because he was the guy that modded the main amp so they needed him to know exactly what's going on...
if it's only the one they are designing why is he refering to the ot une variac and that the signal causes issues in the racks and wireless. If i remember correctly a stock marshall has no issues with racks and wireless units...
final argument Zeke says in part 2 that the effects in front of the amp made it blow if not carefully tuned. Is that a stock plexi behaviour ?
if you prefer to believe that it was stock it's your choice. Perhaps that you invested a lot of money on a vintage 68 and that you're defending your assets. but what zeke said is a fact, same for josé, pete frampton, rudy leiren, kevin dugan and david lee roth. All except pete frampton were part of the real evh crew.
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