Strong hints that Van Halen 1 68 lead was just a slave amp and not the main amp.

[Amp_chaser]

Ralle tried everything including cascades but his original two gain stage specs were the best and even he went back to them, I looked through my saved layouts for his original specs and I don't have it, just his cascaded versions.

If I remember correctly his original Ralle specs were pretty much a stock 68 like the Friedman specs and then he ran .1uf cap on the PI coupling caps and he would try different NFB values like 27K, 47K and 100K on the different feeback taps, like the standard plexi NFB tap on the 8 ohm for a cleaner more headroom tone versus the 4 ohm tap. 47K on the 8ohm tap is a bit cleaner and Jose like the 100K NFB on the 4 ohm tap like the later superlead amps.

PM me if you want the Ralle cascade layouts.

Ralle settup sounded insanely good i remember a that when i came late and that the forum was dead he had some links to his audios the few sound samples he had left sounded really good.

There is one thing i want to add hard driver. There is a mod i want to try that in fact doesn’t add any component except it transforms one of the volumes into a master volume. It’s no jose master no diodes no extra gain stage. It’s no cascade and not the fat cap. It adds 40% of additionnal gain. Perhaps that’s just what it needs ? 40% of gain from a super lead doesn’t seem that much compared to the traditional plexi and way less than an extra gain stage. It’s a different order to wire some components.

However one thing that i question a lot is that weird thing that fryette said that the plexi looked more like a mk2. I wonder if at some point it had 2k7 .68 uf after the 820r .68 uf. That would perhaps explain why jose was obsessed with the .68 uf 2k7. Who knows…

 

[Lightning]

My Rockstah Mod 5(last amp that Mark modded before he passed away)has gain up the ass and there’s no extra(tube 12ax7)gain stage is still has the plexi flavor and openness.

 

[Mike Oxhuge]

It definitely is not cascaded. I missed the clip of your own moded and frankly that clip is off by miles and has some sort of top end "whistling" do to whatever it is you did to get that harsh top end, not to mention wrong gain structure and considerably more gain than anything Ed ever put to tape. Did you ever listen to the isolated tracks posted earlier in this thread? Its obvious the only difference in the 2 clips is the JBL to anyone that has ever tried that experiment. And also obviously its a stock Plexi. Period. Nothing else sounds exactly like that except a cranked variaced all knobs including the bass channel knob on 10 variaced Plexi with a mixture of greenbacks and JBL'S. Do you have proper studio monitors for comparing? Without those you will continue to chase your tail. Hell, a stock JCM 800 will get closer than your clip did. Just won't have the brightness or quite as much gain. I know as I had a good 800 that could get in the ballpark, if I used the eq in a frown in front of it. Which Ed also had available. Good luck in your search, just don't drive yourself crazy trying to reinvent the wheel on what many of us already tried every reasonable combo available. And it was the 70's man, everyone in all your interviews were alcoholics and on drugs as well. They don't remember shit of how it went down at this point.

 

[legend71]

We have a saying in the USA. Don't put the cart before the horse. Play your guitar.

View attachment 409369

So what I am reading here is that what guys like Al Estrada are doing isn't close enough for you? You have an upcoming gig or recording where you need to get a closer to original EVH sound than what Al needs to play Van Halen songs while on tour with David Lee Roth?

Agreed - It is interesting reading all the theories on EVH's tone but in reality its all about him and how he plays. I am sure its fun to chase all that info down and postulate etc and that's cool. I guess as I have gotten older it matters less to me than the man behind the music.

 

[RevDrucifer]

I go down Gilmour rabbit holes to recreate some of his tones and as rewarding as it can be once you step in the ballpark, there’s also a bit of an empty feeling once it’s over, like “Ok, now what do I do with that?” Obviously learning something new is always a good thing and the information learned in the process can be applied in different areas, especially if you’re actually working on the playing part of it, but there’s certainly an aspect of ‘ruining the magic’ that comes along with it, for me anyway.

 

[Amp_chaser]

It definitely is not cascaded. I missed the clip of your own moded and frankly that clip is off by miles and has some sort of top end "whistling" do to whatever it is you did to get that harsh top end, not to mention wrong gain structure and considerably more gain than anything Ed ever put to tape. Did you ever listen to the isolated tracks posted earlier in this thread? Its obvious the only difference in the 2 clips is the JBL to anyone that has ever tried that experiment. And also obviously its a stock Plexi. Period. Nothing else sounds exactly like that except a cranked variaced all knobs including the bass channel knob on 10 variaced Plexi with a mixture of greenbacks and JBL'S. Do you have proper studio monitors for comparing? Without those you will continue to chase your tail. Hell, a stock JCM 800 will get closer than your clip did. Just won't have the brightness or quite as much gain. I know as I had a good 800 that could get in the ballpark, if I used the eq in a frown in front of it. Which Ed also had available. Good luck in your search, just don't drive yourself crazy trying to reinvent the wheel on what many of us already tried every reasonable combo available. And it was the 70's man, everyone in all your interviews were alcoholics and on drugs as well. They don't remember shit of how it went down at this point.

Well that amp is just based on the vai's amp and on the josé in the david lee roth basement.

it hisses a lot because there are some caps missing because i don't have the right values.

There are some people that told me that i got very close to the iso track of RWTD. I'm talking about vh1 exclusively. If you listen to iso guitar tracks you'll notice that the sound evolved a lot threw time and that vh1 exclusively has a huge tonal difference. It's sublte in a mix but in guitar isolated tracks it's obvious :

no stock plexi has that punch, it almost sounds like a chainsaw.



i'm very sloppy it has been years i only mod and build amp without playing a lot. but here is how it sounds with less gain :



this is the amp with full gain.



I also use g12h30 blackbacks instead of the jbl d120f because zeke clark and a seller of flag system cabs said Ed used g12h30 blackbacks 55hz.

however i don't know if the mod i did is the right one. However i admit there is probably way less gain. In the tracks there is more gain than a stock plexi. Perhaps that cascade or things like that were done but that's already a mod.

 

[Anje]

no stock plexi has that punch, it almost sounds like a chainsaw.

I really don't know what you are talking about; "that punch... like a chainsaw" ?!

In the tracks there is more gain than a stock plexi.

No, there's not to me.
A "good stockish" late 60's / early 70's "Plexi" has plenty of "punch" or "gain" to do what I can hear from all those old VH recording tracks; depends how you play, what/how you plug into it, what/how you play the amp into, how you record it...
VH1 album does sound slightly different from the later ones or same era live recordings, but does not sound like most of the difference is coming from any significant amp change to me.

 

[Amp_chaser]

I really don't know what you are talking about; "that punch... like a chainsaw" ?!




No, there's not to me.
A "good stockish" late 60's / early 70's "Plexi" has plenty of "punch" or "gain" to do what I can hear from all those old VH recording tracks; depends how you play, what/how you plug into it, what/how you play the amp into, how you record it...
VH1 album does sound slightly different from the later ones or same era live recordings, but does not sound like most of the difference is coming from any significant amp change to me.

Honestly i don't think you're right there is not insanes amount of gain but a little more than what a pexi can do.

Mark or Rockstah who created the mod 5 was an insane level guitar player and he played live with cabs.

This man also believed there was more gain than a stock plexi and believed it was modded.

Number 1 : Mark was a better guitarist than 99% of the forums members here he had live and real experience with cabs and amps.
Number 2 : He knew about amplifier circuits, building and modding.
Number 3 : He believed the amp was modded too and created something way better than any stock plexi for vh1. However it still lacks the sizzle that vh1 produces.

Unfortunately he passed away some years ago, but he seemed to be an amazing guy with lots of skills and knowledge.

here is his mod :



So now my questions are :

- Do you know about amp circuits and modding ?
- Do you have full experience playing live with amps ?

Mark had all of those and he also believed it was modded. I prefer to believe him than random online guitar players.

I also trust zeke clark josé, kevin dugan and rudy leiren claims. I don't believe those men were liars.

even jason tong from headfirst amplification believes it was modded and he is a huge vh fan and has direct contact with dave friedman. Don't you think that dave shared some things with him too ? I asked him on youtube if one kind of mod could be the one. He answered me on youtube and told me no that's not it and that he is pretty sure to know how the vh1 amp mod was done.

if you don't know about amp building and modding you'll have a rough time understanding pictures that support evidence it was modded... You'll have also a hard time understanding how small changes in an amp can drastically change tone caracteristics. A component value change is already a mod. A pot added in the back is already a mod. OT and choke changes to other specs than stock already a mod...

 

[Lightning]

Mark did not play Marshall plexi’s at full volume live when he was playing with Micky Thompson Starship he played Marshall Jcm 900 amps. Mark had a 1979 Marshall jmp 100 watt that he liked alot and he had Marshall plexis that he modded also(mod 5).

 

[Amp_chaser]

Mark did not play Marshall plexi’s at full volume live when he was playing with Micky Thompson Starship he played Marshall Jcm 900 amps. Mark had a 1979 Marshall jmp 100 watt that he liked alot and he had Marshall plexis that he modded also(mod 5).

thx for the correction. i updated my previous post.

 

[chumbucket]

Honestly i don't think you're right there is not insanes amount of gain but a little more than what a pexi can do.

Mark or Rockstah who created the mod 5 was an insane level guitar player and he played live with cabs.

This man also believed there was more gain than a stock plexi and believed it was modded.

Number 1 : Mark was a better guitarist than 99% of the forums members here he had live and real experience with cabs and amps.
Number 2 : He knew about amplifier circuits, building and modding.
Number 3 : He believed the amp was modded too and created something way better than any stock plexi for vh1. However it still lacks the sizzle that vh1 produces.

Unfortunately he passed away some years ago, but he seemed to be an amazing guy with lots of skills and knowledge.

here is his mod :



So now my questions are :

- Do you know about amp circuits and modding ?
- Do you have full experience playing live with amps ?

Mark had all of those and he also believed it was modded. I prefer to believe him than random online guitar players.

I also trust zeke clark josé, kevin dugan and rudy leiren claims. I don't believe those men were liars.

even jason tong from headfirst amplification believes it was modded and he is a huge vh fan and has direct contact with dave friedman. Don't you think that dave shared some things with him too ? I asked him on youtube if one kind of mod could be the one. He answered me on youtube and told me no that's not it and that he is pretty sure to know how the vh1 amp mod was done.

if you don't know about amp building and modding you'll have a rough time understanding pictures that support evidence it was modded... You'll have also a hard time understand how small changes in an amp can drastically change tone caracteristics. A component value change is already a mod. A pot added in the back is already a mod. OT and choke changes to other specs than stock already a mod...

Are the Mod 5 specs known ?

 

[Amp_chaser]

Are the Mod 5 specs known ?

Yes there are some online sites with some schematics : metropoulos and some old underworld modding amp sites. it's very close to a jcm 800 2203 amp it's more like a hybrid between a mark 2 plexi and a 2203.

There is also the R/T mod by Mike Audette he once described the entire mod on the Marshall forums and it's still there online :



it's a cascade in the josé style. when i saw the mod the first time i never thought to cascade an amp that way it's very clever.

 

[Lightning]

If the mod(mod 5)was done by Mark A. vs done by others there was a difference I’ve played Mod 5 that were done by others and it’s not the same as if Mark A done the Mod. When Mark A was still around he had seen
others that have done the Mod 5 and it wasn’t the same it didn’t sound the same like I said if Mark A.doing the mod.I have compared my Mod 5 that Mark A. done to others and it didn’t sound the same at all Im just being honest with you.

 

[chumbucket]

Yes there are some online sites with some schematics : metropoulos and some old underworld modding amp sites. it's very close to a jcm 800 2203 amp it's more like a hybrid between a mark 2 plexi and a 2203.

There is also the R/T mod by Mike Audette he once described the entire mod on the Marshall forums and it's still there online :



it's a cascade in the josé style. when i saw the mod the first time i never thought to cascade an amp that way it's very clever.

It seems like you don't need to look much further than either one of these mods to get your brown sounds?

 

[Mike Oxhuge]

Well that amp is just based on the vai's amp and on the josé in the david lee roth basement.

it hisses a lot because there are some caps missing because i don't have the right values.

There are some people that told me that i got very close to the iso track of RWTD. I'm talking about vh1 exclusively. If you listen to iso guitar tracks you'll notice that the sound evolved a lot threw time and that vh1 exclusively has a huge tonal difference. It's sublte in a mix but in guitar isolated tracks it's obvious :

no stock plexi has that punch, it almost sounds like a chainsaw.



i'm very sloppy it has been years i only mod and build amp without playing a lot. but here is how it sounds with less gain :



this is the amp with full gain.



I also use g12h30 blackbacks instead of the jbl d120f because zeke clark and a seller of flag system cabs said Ed used g12h30 blackbacks 55hz.

however i don't know if the mod i did is the right one. However i admit there is probably way less gain. In the tracks there is more gain than a stock plexi. Perhaps that cascade or things like that were done but that's already a mod.

I didn't think the amp sounded bad, I think your recording setup caused the weird sounds or maybe you tried adding highs post recording? But definitely way different than VH1, it has unnatural highs. I really hope you are successful and prove me wrong and develop or discover a new mod. I love Jose mods in particular just not for authentic early EVH. I am asking and please answer, have you ever tried a JBL mixed with a Blackback? Speakers effect the final tone as much as the amp in most cases. Did you try running all the same effects he did in front of the amp? We know he had an EQ pedal which is what I use in front of master volume Marshalls to help them get the more Plexi like highs. Have you tried that? And yes, Mark was an exceptional player and nice guy. But he sold amp mods so he would have a vested interest in stating it had to be moded. If you have looked at enough old Marshalls that are original you will see some that have strange values and some janky looking solder joints as though stuff had been changed even if it hadn't. Marshall was a small boutique amp builder in the early years and if it sounded and functioned good, it went out the door to be sold. Ed's 68 had a different value mid pot and that is alot of the sound. Remember as well the variances in individual components add up to a lot in some amps and that's why not all Marshalls or any amps really ever sound the same side by side. Some are meh, some are decent and some are special. The 72 Plexi I had had enough gain for VH1 at between 8 and 9 on the dial, 10 was almost as much as Metallica Ride the lightning with no boost and it was factory stock down to every last capacitor. 6CA7's also do make a difference in getting his sound. Try a good set vs EL34's and you will hear the difference if your hearing is good and you have a trained ear.

 

[Anje]

So now my questions are :

- Do you know about amp circuits and modding ?
- Do you have full experience playing live with amps ?

My quick answers to those questions are:
- yes
- yes

And by saying "yes", I mean something being precisely relevant to the context being discussed here; like having owned/played/rebuilt/maintained/tweaked... tens of original 60's/70's Marshall amps & cabs and having actually played them live in a band context at full volume, for decades now.
But thanks for questioning and making sure my experience is relevant and worthy of this thread.

Tweaking few component values here and there, or maintaining an amp to make it more reliable, without modifying the main architecture / typology of the circuit is not what I'd call "a mod"; that would fall into the "stockish" category to me.
There have been so many component/value variations from the factory over the years anyway.

I do believe whatever Ed and his "techs", Jose included, may have done back in the Marshall days on his main & others old amps, were mainly driven by trying to make the volume more manageable and the rig more reliable.
If you have a good sounding healthy well maintained "stockish" late 60's / early 70's NMV Marshall you love, with the right playing skills & attitude, signal chain before & after, including cabs & speakers, and the proper space to open it up => the guitar gear is not the limitation to "sound like a Van Halen record". Period. Been there, done that, decades ago.

I'll also re-iterate one key point to me: bottom line is we just don't play, nor hear, the same.
Fact that so many different builders/players can achieve very similar recorded results through different means, just shows that there is no "one way" to do this. Whatever fits the player/context is OK in the end. It's like a recipe; so many variables and different options to arrive to an end result.
Oh, and btw, going so deep in this "rabbit hole" and trying to "demonstrate the truth" by using/trusting youtube videos is... how to say it kindly... kind of a joke right?
Actually playing such rig at volume in person and in context is where it's at.