the FINAL word on the Kemper

[BMoore77]

The guy says that they dont sound as good as the amps he has..that you can tell a difference. Then dont use it. But dont get mad at people who do...The high end amp industry is based off of the premise of ripping each other off, and builders taking their ideas to other companies. Are the Arredondo family getting a royalty check? Dont think so. Been going on for years. If your premise were correct there would be no independent builders out there. Like the guy said before...Does Friedman or Metro cut Marshall a check when they sell their amps? Until every amp builder,guitar maker in the world start sending Leo Fender's and Les Paul's estates a check every month, then we will start talking about Kemper doing the same. Where is Eddie's check from the 99% of amp builders attempting (!) to clone the Brown Sound. Hell, people even use that term in their advertisements. How about pickup companies? The VHII, Black Dog, Riff Raff, ect...where do we stop? This is a joke.

 

[Racerxrated]

I hear he can play a mean tennis match.
Ruthless on the court.

Ruthless....has a Dr Evil look to him...

I really don't think the amp business is hurting. Look at how many new amps come out every year. Boutique or not, builders/companies must be doing well. Look at Friedman's products....1500 up to 4K..and he's selling a ton. Soldano, Wizard, Bogner, Mesa..etc. They all must be doing well. Bottom line is the Kemper/Axe still costs a ton to buy, the average younger guitar player isn't gonna have the coin to buy one anyway. When you add in the power amp or FR/FR speaker setup you're looking at 4-5k. When they can get a used 5153 for 500? When more companies come out with prices and quality like the Axe/Kemper in the Atomic Amplifire range then you might see some damage done.

 

[ProgFree]

I think the amp builders should get the same money as adobe and digital camera manufacturers paid the companies that made photo film when the first started to include emulations of photo film in photoshop and cameras etc. Lets not forget also the tons of audio plugins that are based on impulses of hardware gear and whose developers/vendors never paid any rights to the hardware manufacturers. This guy in the video talks like if he is now the first that comes across this "ethical" problem. Has he been living under a stone for the last 15 years or so?

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Simply put, i have seen a few other videos from that guy and he seems like such a dink I have a hard time listening to his full videos. Kemper is just another tool and for people who want to bring all their amps on the road with them in one unit or for use in the studio, who really cares. Even for the few people that go out and rent an amp just to profile it. They are renting it, who cares if they profile it? Or tone match it (BIAS anyone?)..or use a POD that is based on a real amp (supposedly) and also supposedly affecting the sale of all those 4k amps that nobody can really afford anyway. Look it, someone who can afford a 4k amp will just save and get one. I doubt Kemper users use more than 4-5 profiles anyway. I am totally fine with that.

 

[ejecta]

Alan the owner of Carol Ann Amplification posted this on another forum about the video in the OP. It's always good to hear from people who actually know how it really is since they are in the industry and not like most of us making a bunch of inferences on forums based on little to no real world experiences in that industry.

This video was quite painful to watch if I'm honest.
IP is design, physical build, any patents and any trademarks . Profiling an amp is like taking a 'snapshot' of its end result, not the method of achieving it.
From an Engineering standpoint, its physically impossible to replicate 100% with this method anyway. I don't care if you are pro or against modelling, that's a fact !! This part of his view I agree with.

Regardless, the only time a company is crossing the line is if they use your actual IP without permission, not the result of what your IP does as an end user product. There's many tones you can achieve from one tube amp. I don't think its fair to say we 'as an amplifier Company' own your tones......lol.....then again, I'm not insecure in what I do. I know the positive uses of both technologies and if someone feels a modeler replaces what I do, then I'm not really interested in that person as a customer anyway. The reality is actually quite the opposite. A good model in one of these units sells the actual real amps. So in reality this whole video is a HUGE moot point. More Tucana 3's have been sold thanks to the Fractal unit than any other method of advertising.

Kemper does not have my permission to use my Company name or any of my trademarks. I explicitly told them that politely a few years ago when they asked and they DID ask. My response was based on the fact that I already have a working relationship with Fractal. However, that doesn't stop someone profiling a CA with a Kemper though, nor does it stop them naming it CA in their unit.
As an example I can build a TW style amp that used nothing of a TW design and make it sound very very close. I've don't it. I didn't steal any of the original design, just achieved the end result a different way. Profiling an output is even one more step removed from that.

 

[squank]

Alan for Carol Ann amps posted this on another forum about the video in the OP. It's always good to hear from people who actually know how it really is since they in the industry.

This video was quite painful to watch if I'm honest.
IP is design, physical build, any patents and any trademarks . Profiling an amp is like taking a 'snapshot' of its end result, not the method of achieving it.
From an Engineering standpoint, its physically impossible to replicate 100% with this method anyway. I don't care if you are pro or against modelling, that's a fact !! This part of his view I agree with.

Regardless, the only time a company is crossing the line is if they use your actual IP without permission, not the result of what your IP does as an end user product. There's many tones you can achieve from one tube amp. I don't think its fair to say we 'as an amplifier Company' own your tones......lol.....then again, I'm not insecure in what I do. I know the positive uses of both technologies and if someone feels a modeler replaces what I do, then I'm not really interested in that person as a customer anyway. The reality is actually quite the opposite. A good model in one of these units sells the actual real amps. So in reality this whole video is a HUGE moot point. More Tucana 3's have been sold thanks to the Fractal unit than any other method of advertising.

Kemper does not have my permission to use my Company name or any of my trademarks. I explicitly told them that politely a few years ago when they asked and they DID ask. My response was based on the fact that I already have a working relationship with Fractal. However, that doesn't stop someone profiling a CA with a Kemper though, nor does it stop them naming it CA in their unit.
As an example I can build a TW style amp that used nothing of a TW design and make it sound very very close. I've don't it. I didn't steal any of the original design, just achieved the end result a different way. Profiling an output is even one more step removed from that.

Great post. Alan nails it, imo.

 

[Schaf]

All the equipment in the world can't help you write better songs.
The focus is fuzzy.

On this topic, I'd love a Kemper for recording home demo's. Live, tube amps for me.

I've still yet to hear a band live using a direct device that sounded amazing. Most all sounded horrible.

Agreed 100%. Great tool for recording and home playing. But live its just not there. Yet anyway.

From what I've observed, the guys who have a great sounding analog rig are also the guys who can make a modeler sound great too.

 

[mdc1mdc11]

The amp scene and movement should consider itself lucky that it has not been killed off much sooner. Computers used be the size of large rooms with vacuum tubes as well and then the transistor and diodes came along and reduced to silicon chips. If the functions start to sound close and can be delivered cheaply it will create migration from one to the next. I own great amps, but I also own modelers too including Bias and Amplifire. Shocking how good those products are when you can't bring heavy artillery with you...

 

[squank]

The amp scene and movement should consider itself lucky that it has not been killed off much sooner. Computers used be the size of large rooms with vacuum tubes as well and then the transistor and diodes came along and reduced to silicon chips. If the functions start to sound close and can be delivered cheaply it will create migration from one to the next. I own great amps, but I also own modelers too including Bias and Amplifire. Shocking how good those products are when you can't bring heavy artillery with you...

This is true, and is really amazing. Where else can you find high end electric devices still using tubes (other than hi-fi stereo systems, whose superior sound quality claims are not universally accepted)?

 

[EngineeringTheEnemy]

I have the solution. Kemper should sell licenses for EACH amp that is profiled. You have to register each amp, and pay for it. Then that registration payment gets sent to the manufacturer.

I disagree with EVERYTHING you say.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. The Kemper actually made me want to buy MORE amps. Before owning a Kemper I had an Axe FX II and a 5150. That's it. Since getting the KPA, my amp collection now includes a CCV, Wizard, Friedman, Peters, Splawn, Fortin, along with various Marshalls. Maybe the amp manufacturers should pay Kemper a royalty for the number of sales it helps inspire.

I highly doubt amp builders have seen a spike in sales since the Kempers release.

 

[rsm]

Guitar based music, like guitarists, is/are fading away. I'm thinking there'll be lots of gear for sale soon as the boomers die, and few millennials are interested; with few exceptions, this "classic" "vintage" gear is going to sell for pennies on the dollar. I have a few guitars I hope will stay in the family after I'm gone but it won't matter at that point. I'm sure I won't get half what I paid for my gear back.

I made the switch to modelers several years ago, I still have a few tube amps but they're a PITA to sell. I revamped my guitar and bass rigs last year (Boss GT-100, GT-001, GP-10 and SY-300 for guitar; Zoom B1on for bass).

Between the lack of interest in guitar / guitar based music compared to '50s - early / mid '90s, and digital modeling I think the music equipment industry has to see a smaller future...right now they are capitalizing on the boomers, gen-x'ers, and a small number of millennials who care about guitar, especially electric guitar. I think electric guitar virtuosity and technical prowess are dead / dying arts, these skills are valued by few tweens, teens, 20 somethings compared to the past, and the current music reflects this, especially pop music.

Now, add the digital modeling to this current situation I think tube amps sales will decline after the boomers. Who still makes tubes? How much demand is needed to keep them making tubes? At what point will the price of new tubes get so expensive they're no longer affordable?

This ain't the 20th century anymore, that was the guitar's century

I just got a new pointy guitar, but I also got a new wireless MIDI controller "keytar" and I've been working on electronic music since last Thanksgiving, I'm having a blast. I've already been asked to perform at a few local bars when I talk about my electronic rig (and show a picture of it ) LOL, I'll take them up on it when I think I'm ready. I have about 3 songs I'm refining just using my Roland JD-Xi, and I'm still learning my Roland Aira system; I plan to combine these into a single rig.

My new keytar, which will be part of my Ableton Live / Push 2 / laptop rig:

 

[LLEADD]

"achieved the end result a different way"
I think that pretty much sums it up.

 

[Slaytallica]

Does anyone really believe that Kemper is ruining the boutique amp business? LOL. Why is everyone making a big deal out of this? Turning this into a "holier than thou" argument on business ethics is a joke. What's even a bigger joke is someone who decides to buy 30k worth of high end, hand wired, point to point, highest grade this and that gear and then realizing it can be copied at the drop of a hat by modern technology. Even funnier is that 30k worth of gear can still produce clips of some of the most god awful, mistake ridden playing ever heard. But I digress...Either way, the amp building business is such a limited market and alot of it is it's own doing. Kemper isn't hurting their business, neither is a lack of guitar driven music nowadays. The boutique amp builders limit themselves. The quality of the amp justifies a higher price...way higher. Look at this forum. Most people here are not in active bands..and I'm not talking about a club cover band or playing at church (which begs the question: Why would you need a Friedman BE100 at Sunday worship?) Remember when you were trying to start a band way back when? Maybe heading out to L.A. to try your luck? Could you afford a Soldano? How about grabbing a new Steve Stevens Signature amp with matching cab?...anyone? Lets face it, most people here are going for the holy grail of tone knowing damn well they arent trying to make music their full time career. And that's fine. Kinda like the old guy in Miami who drives around in a high powered sports car. Again, who cares..But most people who are trying to go "all in" and are trying to make it in the music business before they get old (old being over 27) couldnt even fathom unloading 3k on an amp when you have shit like rent and food to worry about. 40 yr old lawyers who play on weekends dont have to worry about that. just sayin'...I wish Kemper nothing but the best.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Slaytallica]

The guy says that they dont sound as good as the amps he has..that you can tell a difference. Then dont use it. But dont get mad at people who do...The high end amp industry is based off of the premise of ripping each other off, and builders taking their ideas to other companies. Are the Arredondo family getting a royalty check? Dont think so. Been going on for years. If your premise were correct there would be no independent builders out there. Like the guy said before...Does Friedman or Metro cut Marshall a check when they sell their amps? Until every amp builder,guitar maker in the world start sending Leo Fender's and Les Paul's estates a check every month, then we will start talking about Kemper doing the same. Where is Eddie's check from the 99% of amp builders attempting (!) to clone the Brown Sound. Hell, people even use that term in their advertisements. How about pickup companies? The VHII, Black Dog, Riff Raff, ect...where do we stop? This is a joke.

 

[ghosty999]

Back in the day people worked their asses off to buy one amp

Now-a-days people work their asses off to buy all the amps in one box

Just like everything these days, people want it ALL and they want it NOW.

People used to cherish their records, listen to them and learn them inside and out. Now people have all the music in the world a click away and less is invested in the music.

Same with amps, if you love a sound buy that amp, buy some pedals and love it. When you want to try something else, sell it and move on.

This whole "I WANT ALL THE AMPS RIGHT NOW FOREVER FOR FREE NOW NOW NOW 20000 PATCH CHANGES A GIG" attitude confuses me

 

[crankyrayhanky]

I agree that most gigs will only need a few core amp tones, unless you're flexing some crazy diverse cover set.
But in the studio 2000 profiles is fun to have, albeit overwhelming at times

 

[Suhr]

IMO his argument holds no water .How much did Soldano get paid for the Recto and the 5150 ,Cobra

Does Marshall Get Money from Friedman .

This guy strikes me as as many who have $50,000 worth or amps and are bitter that they sound marginally better in a band recording if you are bestowed golden ears

I think that he have genuine feeling about this topic. Just because people got away with it in the past doesn't make it fine. Everyone probably owes gibson, fender, and marshall a tone of money. In reality they will never see it but it is still an issue. This is coming from someone with an klon clone so im just as bad as everyone else.

And Fender owes RCA a ton of money for giving them schematics and telling them how to use their power tubes. An Marshall owes Fender for copying the Bassman There is also nothing unique about a Arredondo mod and nothing mind bending about the brown sound, that is more about the player and a stock Marshall (almost).

Kemper is a great device if you dig in and I use it often to simplify life. Does it sound exactly like the amps it models? Not to me, does it sound good? Yes and it is not the limiting factor in making great music. I like some of the models better than the amps it is said to emulate. Michael Britt BTW has awesome profiles and should be the starting point for any Kemper guy. However in the end of the day I still like playing through the original amps better than any modeler. Even if you can't hear the recorded difference you can feel it. Having said that if I was a church or club player having to play a wide range of music I'd give it a try for sure. I'm not worried it will replace the original amps but it is a great tool. Lets also not forget the serious amount of Amplifier Acquisition Syndrome. People like shinny new things... plural, not one new box. It is idealistic to think one box will replace your amps but it can be fun to model and play through the amps via a Kemper and only break them out when you want to. I record with the Kemper and if I want to hassle breaking out the mic's in my less than perfect studio I'll give it a try. Like I asked Henderson one day why he practiced with amp X yet toured with Y. He said I don't want to prematurely wear out my tubes. I know guys who have a practice guitar and a recording gigging guitar. I think manufacturers are overly worried about this new technology at this point. It is also great for advertising, Hey I didn't know what a Badger was until I saw this profile, I need to go check one out now !

 

[Racerxrated]

John....so....you say the brown sound is about a player and an 'almost' stock Marshall.....

You admit it!!! EVHs amp WAS modded!!!

Lol. Sorry. I had to.

 

[Chubtone]

There is also nothing unique about a Arredondo mod

What about in the late 70's/early 80's? Was what Jose was doing back then a common thing or an idea borrowed from another amp design?

 

[Vrad]

IMO his argument holds no water .How much did Soldano get paid for the Recto and the 5150 ,Cobra

Does Marshall Get Money from Friedman .

This guy strikes me as as many who have $50,000 worth or amps and are bitter that they sound marginally better in a band recording if you are bestowed golden ears

I think that he have genuine feeling about this topic. Just because people got away with it in the past doesn't make it fine. Everyone probably owes gibson, fender, and marshall a tone of money. In reality they will never see it but it is still an issue. This is coming from someone with an klon clone so im just as bad as everyone else.

And Fender owes RCA a ton of money for giving them schematics and telling them how to use their power tubes. An Marshall owes Fender for copying the Bassman There is also nothing unique about a Arredondo mod and nothing mind bending about the brown sound, that is more about the player and a stock Marshall (almost).

Kemper is a great device if you dig in and I use it often to simplify life. Does it sound exactly like the amps it models? Not to me, does it sound good? Yes and it is not the limiting factor in making great music. I like some of the models better than the amps it is said to emulate. Michael Britt BTW has awesome profiles and should be the starting point for any Kemper guy. However in the end of the day I still like playing through the original amps better than any modeler. Even if you can't hear the recorded difference you can feel it. Having said that if I was a church or club player having to play a wide range of music I'd give it a try for sure. I'm not worried it will replace the original amps but it is a great tool. Lets also not forget the serious amount of Amplifier Acquisition Syndrome. People like shinny new things... plural, not one new box. It is idealistic to think one box will replace your amps but it can be fun to model and play through the amps via a Kemper and only break them out when you want to. I record with the Kemper and if I want to hassle breaking out the mic's in my less than perfect studio I'll give it a try. Like I asked Henderson one day why he practiced with amp X yet toured with Y. He said I don't want to prematurely wear out my tubes. I know guys who have a practice guitar and a recording gigging guitar. I think manufacturers are overly worried about this new technology at this point. It is also great for advertising, Hey I didn't know what a Badger was until I saw this profile, I need to go check one out now !