Tubes to Become Obsolete?

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rupe":1yc44i4d said:
glip22":1yc44i4d said:
I think the OP is correct. "Tubes will become obsolete". "When" would have made for a better thread. Not in my lifetime so I really don't give a shit. I will be in the ground. Tubes are a multi -billion dollar industry now. If all that is left is Chinese tubes there will still be tubes.
You've brought in tubes that lie outside of audio applications. What portion of that multi-billion dollar industry is comprised of tubes used in amps and stereo equipment? Are these other segments using the same tubes as guitar amps and high end audio? If not, are they built on the same machines or would/could those machines easily be re-purposed? I have no idea, but if the answer to those questions is no, then your point doesn't hold true.
The technology is still the same. The point is tube technology and the technology to manufacture tubes is still needed in other areas that comprise a large portion of the segment other than audio and guitar. A sum of the whole is a good forecast tubes will not become obsolete in my, or your, lifetime which is all that has relevance for me. I do not disagree with you. The time frame is more important subjectively.
 
Tubes aren't going anywhere as long as the manufacturing facilities and tooling remain in Russia and China where Economics 101 doesn't come into play. It's more about being able to do something the rest of the world can't and with a low paid work force, they can do it. As long as someone doesn't bomb the plants like they did in eastern Europe, they will be around. Once the tooling is gone though, the end would be near. Tube pricing has remained stable the last decade while everything around it has gone up. If anything, they need to jack the prices up slightly to maintain the art of tube manufacturing. If it goes tits up, I still have a big stash of glass.....
 
steve_k":2lwv8smr said:
Tubes aren't going anywhere as long as the manufacturing facilities and tooling remain in Russia and China where Economics 101 doesn't come into play. It's more about being able to do something the rest of the world can't and with a low paid work force, they can do it. As long as someone doesn't bomb the plants like they did in eastern Europe, they will be around. Once the tooling is gone though, the end would be near. Tube pricing has remained stable the last decade while everything around it has gone up. If anything, they need to jack the prices up slightly to maintain the art of tube manufacturing. If it goes tits up, I still have a big stash of glass.....
That's the whole point. Fliegler says the tooling is 50+ years old and nearing the end of its usable life...and too cost prohibitive to rebuild based on the small niche market that it serves.
 
Fine, time to call Laura and get my private stash built up. If they last my lifetime then I guess the rest does not really matter to me from a personal standpoint. Sad to see an end to an era of tube audiophiles and guitarists, but it will happen someday. I just one set of NOS to be buried with me with two Blondes and a six pack!!!
 
steve_k":3t1hja0y said:
Tubes aren't going anywhere as long as the manufacturing facilities and tooling remain in Russia and China where Economics 101 doesn't come into play. It's more about being able to do something the rest of the world can't and with a low paid work force, they can do it. As long as someone doesn't bomb the plants like they did in eastern Europe, they will be around. Once the tooling is gone though, the end would be near. Tube pricing has remained stable the last decade while everything around it has gone up. If anything, they need to jack the prices up slightly to maintain the art of tube manufacturing. If it goes tits up, I still have a big stash of glass.....
As cheap as China is able to manufacture, can't they fabricate new tooling cost effectively? They are experts at copying.
 
Tubes are not going anywhere anytime soon. The Military uses tubes because they are less susceptible to Electro-Magnetic Pulse, such as that experienced during a nuclear event. So someone will be making them. Plus the amount of NOS tubes out there is probably fairly large.

How cost prohibitive can it be to manufacture them when they are making Fake Telefunken's and such?

Or you can call this guy and have him make you some!

https://www.youtube.com/embed/gl-QMuUQhVM
 
Thanks dooredge I tried to embed the vids. Looks like I am going to start hand making some 12ax7's. Can I get some pre-orders? LOL

At 47 years old I don't think tubes will be gone in my lifetime.
 
I work in the medical field and my nuclear medicine camera has 70 PMT tubes in it alone. Along with ct, x-ray, x ray digital reading devices, and mammography, tubes aren't going anywhere. I am not talking about x-ray producing tubes either, which are also a part of some of this equipment. My nuclear camera is made in Germany (Siemens) and uses tubes made by the same companies that we buy our tubes for our amps for. This is all equipment that is less than a year old, and there is nothing in the works with getting solid state technology integrated into this equipment anywhere in the near future.

Why do people in the industry say things like this. It's real simple, produce a buzz of tubes becoming obsolete and we'll all go out and buy a lifetime supply of tubes. Its a pretty good marketing strategy. Go to the store and try and buy some ammo for your guns right now. Its the same principal, threaten to take it all away and we'll make sure and stock up why we still can.
 
AMT makes the best sounding/feeling SS gear I've ever experienced and if anyone can pull off the SS tube replacements properly it will be them.

I have no doubt their tube replacement products will be fantastic.
 
koury73":13g1y0re said:
I work in the medical field and my nuclear medicine camera has 70 PMT tubes in it alone. Along with ct, x-ray, x ray digital reading devices, and mammography, tubes aren't going anywhere. I am not talking about x-ray producing tubes either, which are also a part of some of this equipment. My nuclear camera is made in Germany (Siemens) and uses tubes made by the same companies that we buy our tubes for our amps for. This is all equipment that is less than a year old, and there is nothing in the works with getting solid state technology integrated into this equipment anywhere in the near future.

Why do people in the industry say things like this. It's real simple, produce a buzz of tubes becoming obsolete and we'll all go out and buy a lifetime supply of tubes. Its a pretty good marketing strategy. Go to the store and try and buy some ammo for your guns right now. Its the same principal, threaten to take it all away and we'll make sure and stock up why we still can.
This is what I was bringing in to the thread. Audio and guitar is a small part of the sum.
 
glip22":334x1oe9 said:
This is what I was bringing in to the thread. Audio and guitar is a small part of the sum.

Any idea where one might find facts? I'm interested in knowing more but most of what I'm finding via searches are only statements about the broad use of vacuum tubes without backing.
 
Bob Savage":3rrvny6l said:
glip22":3rrvny6l said:
This is what I was bringing in to the thread. Audio and guitar is a small part of the sum.

Any idea where one might find facts? I'm interested in knowing more but most of what I'm finding via searches are only statements about the broad use of vacuum tubes without backing.
Honestly Bob, I am not sure. I just knew tubes are every important in other areas aside from audio and guitar
 
Bob Savage":25gz91kw said:
glip22":25gz91kw said:
This is what I was bringing in to the thread. Audio and guitar is a small part of the sum.

Any idea where one might find facts? I'm interested in knowing more but most of what I'm finding via searches are only statements about the broad use of vacuum tubes without backing.

From Wikipedia:

Niche applications

Vacuum tubes are much less susceptible than corresponding solid-state components to transient overvoltages, such as mains voltage surges or lightning, or the electromagnetic pulse effect of nuclear explosions. This property kept them in use for certain military applications long after more practical and less expensive solid-state technology were available for the same applications.[2]

Vacuum tubes are still practical alternatives to solid state in generating high power at radio frequencies in applications such as industrial radio frequency heating, particle accelerators, and broadcast transmitters. This is particularly true at microwave frequencies where such devices as the klystron and traveling-wave tube provide amplification at power levels unattainable using current semiconductor devices. The household microwave oven uses a magnetron tube to efficiently generate hundreds of watts of microwave power.

Audiophiles

Enough people prefer tube sound to make tube amplifiers commercially viable in three areas: musical instrument (guitar) amplifiers, devices used in recording studios, and audiophile equipment.[28][29][30] The power output stages of audio amplifiers using tubes include transformers to match the speaker impedance to the higher impedance level of the tube circuit; the use of transformers introduces frequency-dependent phase shifts which limit the amount of negative feedback which can be applied before inducing instability. Solid state power amplifiers, on the other hand, are direct-coupled and apply a high degree of linearisation by negative feedback.

The output transformer will affect the amplifier's tone (amplitude at different frequencies) in response to the speaker's impedance, and will affect the character of the amplifier's distortion as it approaches maximum power—the use of less feedback than in a semiconductor amplifier produces more distortion products, but they are characteristic of a gradual change, rather than a sudden onset of saturation as happens with large amounts of feedback. There are companies which specialize in high-priced audio amplifiers using tube technology to serve this market. Beyond the amplifier's output stage, more controversial claims[31] are made in favor of tubes used in signal amplification stages and even for using tubes as power supply rectifiers. Professional systems such as music recording studios and public address systems[citation needed] rarely employ tubes in microphone preamplifiers or other applications.

Vacuum fluorescent display

A modern display technology using a variation of cathode ray tube is often used in videocassette recorders, DVD players and recorders, microwave oven control panels, and automotive dashboards. Rather than raster scanning these vacuum fluorescent displays (VFD) switch control grids and anode voltages on and off to display discrete characters, for instance. The VFD uses phosphor-coated anodes as in other display cathode ray tubes. Because the filaments are in view, they must be operated at temperatures where the filament does not glow visibly. This is possible using more recent cathode technology, and these tubes also operate with quite low anode voltages (often less than 50 volts) unlike cathode ray tubes. Often found in automotive applications, their high brightness allows reading the display in bright daylight. VFD tubes are flat and rectangular, as well as relatively thin.

Typical VFD phosphors emit a broad spectrum of greenish-white light, permitting use of color filters, though different phosphors can give other colors even within the same display. The design of these tubes provides a bright glow despite the low energy of the incident electrons. This is because the distance between the cathode and anode is relatively small. (This technology is distinct from fluorescent lighting, which uses a discharge tube.)


Those are the few I could find Bob with a little searching, I am sure there are more.
 
Wikipedia actually supports the contention of vacuum tubes in the 21st century for only niche applications. It even says "Niche Applications" directly below "Vacuum tubes in the 21st century."
 
Bob Savage":1ylmc9g1 said:
Wikipedia actually supports the contention of vacuum tubes in the 21st century for only niche applications. It even says "Niche Applications" directly below "Vacuum tubes in the 21st century."

Yes, :thumbsup:

In the early years of the 21st century there has been renewed interest in vacuum tubes, this time with the electron emitter formed on a flat silicon substrate, as in integrated circuit technology. This subject is now called vacuum nanoelectronics. The most common design uses a cold cathode in the form of a large-area field electron source (for example a field emitter array). With these devices, electrons are field-emitted from a large number of closely spaced individual emission sites.

Their claimed advantages include much greater robustness and the ability to provide high power output at low power consumption. Operating on the same principles as traditional tubes, prototype device cathodes have been fabricated in several different ways. Although a common approach is to use a field emitter array, one interesting idea is to etch electrodes to form hinged flaps – similar to the technology used to create the microscopic mirrors used in digital light processing – that are stood upright by an electrostatic charge.

Such integrated microtubes may find application in microwave devices including mobile phones, for Bluetooth and Wi-Fi transmission, in radar and for satellite communication. As of 2012 they were being studied for possible applications in field emission display technology, but there were significant production problems.
 
koury73":3enjaz4k said:
Why do people in the industry say things like this. It's real simple, produce a buzz of tubes becoming obsolete and we'll all go out and buy a lifetime supply of tubes.

Or, maybe Fender will conveniently be releasing/integrating a new line of retro-fit SS tubes in the very near future. A little pre-marketing hype about the limitations of an old technology never hurts your new product line. Not like we have ever seen that go on here.... :lol: :LOL:
 
koury73":3macl9zd said:
I work in the medical field and my nuclear medicine camera has 70 PMT tubes in it alone. Along with ct, x-ray, x ray digital reading devices, and mammography, tubes aren't going anywhere. I am not talking about x-ray producing tubes either, which are also a part of some of this equipment. My nuclear camera is made in Germany (Siemens) and uses tubes made by the same companies that we buy our tubes for our amps for. This is all equipment that is less than a year old, and there is nothing in the works with getting solid state technology integrated into this equipment anywhere in the near future.
Do your machines use 12AX7s, EL34s, 6L6s, etc? If not, does the manufacturer use the same exact same machines to make the different style tubes? Does anybody know for a fact that there is a crossover OR if there is none? Just because investors will sink $$$ into the infrastructure for one type (industrial) doesn't mean they will do it for another (audio).

koury73":3macl9zd said:
Why do people in the industry say things like this. It's real simple, produce a buzz of tubes becoming obsolete and we'll all go out and buy a lifetime supply of tubes. Its a pretty good marketing strategy. Go to the store and try and buy some ammo for your guns right now. Its the same principal, threaten to take it all away and we'll make sure and stock up why we still can.
Perhaps...or they want to sell you on the next wave of digital/ss.
 
The 2 space Rocktron Velocity 300 from the early 90's sounds as good, and at times better than any tube-based power amp I've ever played through. Tech21 has a couple of solid-state preamps that are quite impressive also. It would suck if tubes became extinct, but there are alternatives. I use to play a solid-state Peavey 'Renown' 212 back in the early 80's...that thing rocked! :rock:
 
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