W/D/W Rig with a Mixer

[Anonymous]

I've always wanted to try this, but I'm just too impatient and probably too stupid to pull this off.

I do have a question for you though Steve. When you say "Henning Bottle Rocket amp --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer (effects connected to the MarkL as per above) --> Matrix GT 800FX power amp --> Left and Right Henning 4 x 12 cabs w/30th Anniversary G12H30s" Are you saying after the Bottle Rocket's power section? Or are you saying you're bypassing its power section and going out of the "send" in its loop?

I'm using a Suhr Iso line out box that is connected to one of the Bottle Rocket's speaker outs. It converts the speaker signal to line level. So, to directly answer your question, the connection to the MarkL unit is after the Bottle Rocket power section, not bypassing it. It is a relatively simple circuit to turn a post power section speaker out into an adjustable line level signal with a few bucks worth of parts, but the Suhr box has isolation and a few other cool things...

Steve

Thanks Steve. That's what scares me - I'm always afraid of getting the load wrong coming out of the power section. I tried going stereo back in 1988 and blew my marshall. I think i mentioned before how stupid i am. I'm going to keep looking into this though.

If you give me the list of your equipment I can draw up how you have to hook it up to make this work. If you just run a Suhr line out from one of you speaker outs, you would be completely safe...

Steve

Well that's mighty nice of you, sir. Right now my rig is pretty simple. I already know I'll have to buy a power amp and a Suhr line out...

Guitar --> Voodoo/DSL --> TC Electronic G System (w/Tube Screamer, SD-1, and Phase 90 in the loops) --> Several 4x12s and 2x12s.

For the record - I'm not sure if I caused that tranny to blow (insert joke here)...if I remember correctly the things involved were my 2210, a tube screamer, a y cable, two Quadrverbs, two cabs, and a bottle of gin.

Ok, assuming you want to keep the overdrives and Phase 90 in the G system loops, all you would need to add is a Suhr Iso Line Out, a Stereo Power amp (I like the Matrix GT 800FX - solid state clean power, one rack unit and light), a Y splitter cable, and a simple mixer like the RJM Mini Mixer.

Guitar --> Voodoo/DSL --> Speaker out --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> Center Cab (4x12 or 2x12)
Suhr Iso Line Out --> Y splitter cable side 1 --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 4 - R/Mono) - This is you Dry signal to the mixer
Y splitter cable side 2 --> TC Electronic G System input --> Stereo Outs of G system --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 1 - Left and Right)
RJM Mini Mixer L/R Outputs --> Left and Right Inputs of Stereo Power Amp --> Left and Right Power Amp Outputs --> Left and Right Cabs (4x12 or 2x12)

That should be it...

Steve

Awesome. I think this is starting to make sense. Although I forgot to mention I go guitar, gsystem, amp, gystem, amp, etc I see what's going on - I just skip the loop section of my amp and put those effects in parallel with the dry after the iso line out (and then mix, etc). Now I just need to worry about the load.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out with this. I'm starting to get excited.

NP!

Why do you need a load, though? The Suhr Iso Line Out provides a speaker through that goes to your center cab. Your amp head is loaded by that center cab. The other cabs provide all the load you need for your stereo power amp...

Steve

 

[PeteLaramee]

That makes perfect sense. Thanks again Steve!!!

 

[Zachman]

Another question. So does this mean that even though we call them, "wet dry wet" rigs, we don't really want a totally wet cab? We want a mixer to add some pure dry signal to that?

Here is a video of Bob Bradshaw describing how my rig is configured and some detail re: why, and concepts for using the options, and the Dry signal routing/switching

 

[dfrattaroli]

Steve, assuming I'm using the following: Mark V:25, Suhr Iso Line Out, RJM Mini Mixer, Strymon Timeline and Mobius as the only wet channel effects. Would this work?

Guitar --> MarkV:25 --> Speaker out --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> Center Cab
Suhr Iso Line Out --> Y splitter cable side 1 --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 4 - R/Mono)
Y splitter cable side 2 --> Mobius L In --> Stereo Outs of Mobius --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 1 - Left and Right)
RJM Mini Mixer L/R Outputs --> Left and Right Inputs of Stereo Power Amp --> Left and Right Power Amp Outputs --> Left and Right Cabs

My question is: How would I connect the TL between Suhr Iso Line Out and RJM Mini Mixer? Would I need another Y cable to feed both the TL and Mobius and then send the L/R outs of the TL to say, Input 2 L/R of the RJM?

Thanks so much.

Dave

 

[Anonymous]

Steve, assuming I'm using the following: Mark V:25, Suhr Iso Line Out, RJM Mini Mixer, Strymon Timeline and Mobius as the only wet channel effects. Would this work?

Guitar --> MarkV:25 --> Speaker out --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> Center Cab
Suhr Iso Line Out --> Y splitter cable side 1 --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 4 - R/Mono)
Y splitter cable side 2 --> Mobius L In --> Stereo Outs of Mobius --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 1 - Left and Right)
RJM Mini Mixer L/R Outputs --> Left and Right Inputs of Stereo Power Amp --> Left and Right Power Amp Outputs --> Left and Right Cabs

My question is: How would I connect the TL between Suhr Iso Line Out and RJM Mini Mixer? Would I need another Y cable to feed both the TL and Mobius and then send the L/R outs of the TL to say, Input 2 L/R of the RJM?

Thanks so much.

Dave

See this is the issue. You need three line out signals to have three parallel mixed signals through the mixer. One to feed the Mobius, One to feed the Timeline and one dry to go straight to the Mini Mixer. I wouldn't try to add another splitter cable. I'd go Y splitter cable side 2 to the mono input of the Mobius, then the stereo outs of the Mobius into the stereo inputs of the Timeline and stereo outs of the Timeline into the RJM Mini Mixer (Input 1 - Left and Right). This way you will get the Mobius effects in the repeats of your Timeline. You'll have a high quality, direct line out dry signal mixed with your effects.

Steve

 

[dfrattaroli]

Steve, assuming I'm using the following: Mark V:25, Suhr Iso Line Out, RJM Mini Mixer, Strymon Timeline and Mobius as the only wet channel effects. Would this work?

Guitar --> MarkV:25 --> Speaker out --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> Center Cab
Suhr Iso Line Out --> Y splitter cable side 1 --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 4 - R/Mono)
Y splitter cable side 2 --> Mobius L In --> Stereo Outs of Mobius --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 1 - Left and Right)
RJM Mini Mixer L/R Outputs --> Left and Right Inputs of Stereo Power Amp --> Left and Right Power Amp Outputs --> Left and Right Cabs

My question is: How would I connect the TL between Suhr Iso Line Out and RJM Mini Mixer? Would I need another Y cable to feed both the TL and Mobius and then send the L/R outs of the TL to say, Input 2 L/R of the RJM?

Thanks so much.

Dave

See this is the issue. You need three line out signals to have three parallel mixed signals through the mixer. One to feed the Mobius, One to feed the Timeline and one dry to go straight to the Mini Mixer. I wouldn't try to add another splitter cable. I'd go Y splitter cable side 2 to the mono input of the Mobius, then the stereo outs of the Mobius into the stereo inputs of the Timeline and stereo outs of the Timeline into the RJM Mini Mixer (Input 1 - Left and Right). This way you will get the Mobius effects in the repeats of your Timeline. You'll have a high quality, direct line out dry signal mixed with your effects.

Steve

Understood. That's what I thought in terms of running the pedals in series, 100% wet. I guess that's why the MLC is such a nice piece. One line in and the rest happens inside.

Thanks for all the help. I think I'm going to go this route and try w/d first. I only have two cabs right now.

Dave

 

[guitarmike]

I've always wanted to try this, but I'm just too impatient and probably too stupid to pull this off.

I do have a question for you though Steve. When you say "Henning Bottle Rocket amp --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer (effects connected to the MarkL as per above) --> Matrix GT 800FX power amp --> Left and Right Henning 4 x 12 cabs w/30th Anniversary G12H30s" Are you saying after the Bottle Rocket's power section? Or are you saying you're bypassing its power section and going out of the "send" in its loop?

I'm using a Suhr Iso line out box that is connected to one of the Bottle Rocket's speaker outs. It converts the speaker signal to line level. So, to directly answer your question, the connection to the MarkL unit is after the Bottle Rocket power section, not bypassing it. It is a relatively simple circuit to turn a post power section speaker out into an adjustable line level signal with a few bucks worth of parts, but the Suhr box has isolation and a few other cool things...

Steve

Thanks Steve. That's what scares me - I'm always afraid of getting the load wrong coming out of the power section. I tried going stereo back in 1988 and blew my marshall. I think i mentioned before how stupid i am. I'm going to keep looking into this though.

If you give me the list of your equipment I can draw up how you have to hook it up to make this work. If you just run a Suhr line out from one of you speaker outs, you would be completely safe...

Steve

Well that's mighty nice of you, sir. Right now my rig is pretty simple. I already know I'll have to buy a power amp and a Suhr line out...

Guitar --> Voodoo/DSL --> TC Electronic G System (w/Tube Screamer, SD-1, and Phase 90 in the loops) --> Several 4x12s and 2x12s.

For the record - I'm not sure if I caused that tranny to blow (insert joke here)...if I remember correctly the things involved were my 2210, a tube screamer, a y cable, two Quadrverbs, two cabs, and a bottle of gin.

Ok, assuming you want to keep the overdrives and Phase 90 in the G system loops, all you would need to add is a Suhr Iso Line Out, a Stereo Power amp (I like the Matrix GT 800FX - solid state clean power, one rack unit and light), a Y splitter cable, and a simple mixer like the RJM Mini Mixer.

Guitar --> Voodoo/DSL --> Speaker out --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> Center Cab (4x12 or 2x12)
Suhr Iso Line Out --> Y splitter cable side 1 --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 4 - R/Mono) - This is you Dry signal to the mixer
Y splitter cable side 2 --> TC Electronic G System input --> Stereo Outs of G system --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 1 - Left and Right)
RJM Mini Mixer L/R Outputs --> Left and Right Inputs of Stereo Power Amp --> Left and Right Power Amp Outputs --> Left and Right Cabs (4x12 or 2x12)

That should be it...

Steve

Awesome. I think this is starting to make sense. Although I forgot to mention I go guitar, gsystem, amp, gystem, amp, etc I see what's going on - I just skip the loop section of my amp and put those effects in parallel with the dry after the iso line out (and then mix, etc). Now I just need to worry about the load.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out with this. I'm starting to get excited.

NP!

Why do you need a load, though? The Suhr Iso Line Out provides a speaker through that goes to your center cab. Your amp head is loaded by that center cab. The other cabs provide all the load you need for your stereo power amp...

Steve

Steve,

For the signal going to the effects, couldn't you use the line out of the Cherry Bomb instead of another amp?

 

[Anonymous]

I've always wanted to try this, but I'm just too impatient and probably too stupid to pull this off.

I do have a question for you though Steve. When you say "Henning Bottle Rocket amp --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer (effects connected to the MarkL as per above) --> Matrix GT 800FX power amp --> Left and Right Henning 4 x 12 cabs w/30th Anniversary G12H30s" Are you saying after the Bottle Rocket's power section? Or are you saying you're bypassing its power section and going out of the "send" in its loop?

I'm using a Suhr Iso line out box that is connected to one of the Bottle Rocket's speaker outs. It converts the speaker signal to line level. So, to directly answer your question, the connection to the MarkL unit is after the Bottle Rocket power section, not bypassing it. It is a relatively simple circuit to turn a post power section speaker out into an adjustable line level signal with a few bucks worth of parts, but the Suhr box has isolation and a few other cool things...

Steve

Thanks Steve. That's what scares me - I'm always afraid of getting the load wrong coming out of the power section. I tried going stereo back in 1988 and blew my marshall. I think i mentioned before how stupid i am. I'm going to keep looking into this though.

If you give me the list of your equipment I can draw up how you have to hook it up to make this work. If you just run a Suhr line out from one of you speaker outs, you would be completely safe...

Steve

Well that's mighty nice of you, sir. Right now my rig is pretty simple. I already know I'll have to buy a power amp and a Suhr line out...

Guitar --> Voodoo/DSL --> TC Electronic G System (w/Tube Screamer, SD-1, and Phase 90 in the loops) --> Several 4x12s and 2x12s.

For the record - I'm not sure if I caused that tranny to blow (insert joke here)...if I remember correctly the things involved were my 2210, a tube screamer, a y cable, two Quadrverbs, two cabs, and a bottle of gin.

Ok, assuming you want to keep the overdrives and Phase 90 in the G system loops, all you would need to add is a Suhr Iso Line Out, a Stereo Power amp (I like the Matrix GT 800FX - solid state clean power, one rack unit and light), a Y splitter cable, and a simple mixer like the RJM Mini Mixer.

Guitar --> Voodoo/DSL --> Speaker out --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> Center Cab (4x12 or 2x12)
Suhr Iso Line Out --> Y splitter cable side 1 --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 4 - R/Mono) - This is you Dry signal to the mixer
Y splitter cable side 2 --> TC Electronic G System input --> Stereo Outs of G system --> RJM Mini Mixer (Input 1 - Left and Right)
RJM Mini Mixer L/R Outputs --> Left and Right Inputs of Stereo Power Amp --> Left and Right Power Amp Outputs --> Left and Right Cabs (4x12 or 2x12)

That should be it...

Steve

Awesome. I think this is starting to make sense. Although I forgot to mention I go guitar, gsystem, amp, gystem, amp, etc I see what's going on - I just skip the loop section of my amp and put those effects in parallel with the dry after the iso line out (and then mix, etc). Now I just need to worry about the load.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out with this. I'm starting to get excited.

NP!

Why do you need a load, though? The Suhr Iso Line Out provides a speaker through that goes to your center cab. Your amp head is loaded by that center cab. The other cabs provide all the load you need for your stereo power amp...

Steve

Steve,

For the signal going to the effects, couldn't you use the line out of the Cherry Bomb instead of another amp?

You could use the Cherry Bomb line out instead of needing the Suhr Iso Line Out. Not sure what you mean by another amp though? The Bottle Rocket doesn't have a line out, so I use the Suhr Iso Line Out with it...

Steve

 

[guitarmike]

I misread part of the thread. I've played W-D at church and it sounds fantastic, I am not sure I can haul enough for W-D-W every week. BTY, the Cherry Bomb is one hell of a good amp.

 

[Anonymous]

I misread part of the thread. I've played W-D at church and it sounds fantastic, I am not sure I can haul enough for W-D-W every week. BTY, the Cherry Bomb is one hell of a good amp.

Glad you're diggin' it, man!

Steve

 

[mdc1mdc11]

Steve,

who (manufacturer) makes the portable rack you are using to mount the matrix, furman, and effects? Building out my wet rack with the matrix and some other stuff.

 

[Anonymous]

Steve,

who (manufacturer) makes the portable rack you are using to mount the matrix, furman, and effects? Building out my wet rack with the matrix and some other stuff.

Mine is from Gator Cases:

Gator Six Space Rolling Rack

Steve

 

[metalmaniac93]

Ordered the Mark L Dual Stereo Line Mixer this morning India time. Should be there a little bit after I get back to the good ole USA. You can also use it in the loop as per Mark L. Now I just need to get a Gator Case and some cables and I should be set. Only bummer is all of 3 of my 4X12 cabs have different speakers.

 

[mdc1mdc11]

Steve,

who (manufacturer) makes the portable rack you are using to mount the matrix, furman, and effects? Building out my wet rack with the matrix and some other stuff.

Mine is from Gator Cases:

Gator Six Space Rolling Rack

Steve

thanks Steve...looks great and at a great price (Gator). Building mine after all of my parts show up MarkL mixer + Matrix Power Amp...

 

[LiveHardDieFree]

Thanks to Steve for the topic.

It provided motivation to finally migrate from WD to WDW.

I was able to eliminate 1/2 my rig in the process.

I'm finding WDW level balancing is a whole other animal than WD though, especially with a looper in the path.

1) The line tap has to be at right level to drive effects, but not cause clipping of effects.

2) Dry level in parallel path has to sit on equal footing with effect levels, or else the effects will drown out the dry component, leaving an overly wet output from the looper, which you don't notice until using the looper, at which point the dry cab is dropped out.

I'm finding, to get this balance at the looper input, the effects need killdry set to off and the effects mix (level) needs to be turned down.

This way, the dry component is relatively louder.

3) The output of the mixer is then cranked up to get the right level to the looper, so the wet cabs are loud enough when using the looper, due to the dry cab being dropped.

4) The power amp output must then be lowered to get the wet cabs at the same output level as the dry cab.

This was a lot simpler with the WD rig, but the WDW does sound better when tuned in.

 

[Anonymous]

2) Dry level in parallel path has to sit on equal footing with effect levels, or else the effects will drown out the dry component, leaving an overly wet output from the looper, which you don't notice until using the looper, at which point the dry cab is dropped out.

I'm finding, to get this balance at the looper input, the effects need killdry set to off and the effects mix (level) needs to be turned down.

Interesting stuff. I'm a bit confused as to why you need the looper between the mixer and power amp. Can you explain why you need it?

It seems to me that the whole point of the mixer is to get a pristine dry sound from your amp mixed in parallel at the appropriate level with the effected sounds. If you turn off killdry on your effects and have an effects mix that isn't 100%, you are mixing in D/A and A/D converted dry signal from your effects which, to me, defeats the purpose of the mixer. In my case, as soon as I started to use a mixer, my dry sound (in the wet cabs) was clearer and more present (more even with the effects). Perhaps your issues revolves around the looper you have between the mixer and the power amp, which I can't fathom why you need, but I'm interested in learning about...

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Steve,

who (manufacturer) makes the portable rack you are using to mount the matrix, furman, and effects? Building out my wet rack with the matrix and some other stuff.

Mine is from Gator Cases:

Gator Six Space Rolling Rack

Steve

thanks Steve...looks great and at a great price (Gator). Building mine after all of my parts show up MarkL mixer + Matrix Power Amp...

Post up when you get set up!

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Ordered the Mark L Dual Stereo Line Mixer this morning India time. Should be there a little bit after I get back to the good ole USA. You can also use it in the loop as per Mark L. Now I just need to get a Gator Case and some cables and I should be set. Only bummer is all of 3 of my 4X12 cabs have different speakers.

Look forward to hearing what you think!

Steve

 

[LiveHardDieFree]

2) Dry level in parallel path has to sit on equal footing with effect levels, or else the effects will drown out the dry component, leaving an overly wet output from the looper, which you don't notice until using the looper, at which point the dry cab is dropped out.

I'm finding, to get this balance at the looper input, the effects need killdry set to off and the effects mix (level) needs to be turned down.

Interesting stuff. I'm a bit confused as to why you need the looper between the mixer and power amp. Can you explain why you need it?

It seems to me that the whole point of the mixer is to get a pristine dry sound from your amp mixed in parallel at the appropriate level with the effected sounds. If you turn off killdry on your effects and have an effects mix that isn't 100%, you are mixing in D/A and A/D converted dry signal from your effects which, to me, defeats the purpose of the mixer. In my case, as soon as I started to use a mixer, my dry sound (in the wet cabs) was clearer and more present (more even with the effects). Perhaps your issues revolves around the looper you have between the mixer and the power amp, which I can't fathom why you need, but I'm interested in learning about...

Steve

I hear you on the undesirable D/A and A/D, but that's the compromise I found I had to make.

Most of my play time is spent using loops, so It's gotta be in there.

If you see a better configuration/place to put it, I'm all ears.

It's a TC Ditto X2.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Zachman]

2) Dry level in parallel path has to sit on equal footing with effect levels, or else the effects will drown out the dry component, leaving an overly wet output from the looper, which you don't notice until using the looper, at which point the dry cab is dropped out.

I'm finding, to get this balance at the looper input, the effects need killdry set to off and the effects mix (level) needs to be turned down.

Interesting stuff. I'm a bit confused as to why you need the looper between the mixer and power amp. Can you explain why you need it?

It seems to me that the whole point of the mixer is to get a pristine dry sound from your amp mixed in parallel at the appropriate level with the effected sounds. If you turn off killdry on your effects and have an effects mix that isn't 100%, you are mixing in D/A and A/D converted dry signal from your effects which, to me, defeats the purpose of the mixer. In my case, as soon as I started to use a mixer, my dry sound (in the wet cabs) was clearer and more present (more even with the effects). Perhaps your issues revolves around the looper you have between the mixer and the power amp, which I can't fathom why you need, but I'm interested in learning about...

Steve

I hear you on the undesirable D/A and A/D, but that's the compromise I found I had to make.

Most of my play time is spent using loops, so It's gotta be in there.

If you see a better configuration/place to put it, I'm all ears.

It's a TC Ditto X2.

Thanks for the insight.

Mixer L/R MIX2 Outputs to L/R Inputs of Looper

Looper L/R Outputs to Stereo Power amp L/R Inputs