What Pickups for a Flying V

[Anje]

May I please use this thread as a good opportunity to ask how you would describe the differences between old early Duncan JB, Custom & Distortion pickups?
I'm in the same boat as ChurchHill, been brainstorming pickup options for a special old 70's model V.
I think I'll keep the neck pickup vintage style (old PAT# / T-Top like), but been thinking about what to put in the bridge especially; looking for a classic hot-rodded PAF vibe to channel my inner late 70's -> 90's Schenker influences

 

[Uzi Nein Millimetah]

I'm currently in that same brainstorm for a special old V.
What do you think about some old Jackson J80?

The J80 is a GREAT lead pickup, although a little soft on bottom compared to Ducans/DiMarzios, etc, if you like heavy rhythm. The J50BC is actually a little better in that regard since it is lower output and boosts nicely without going tubby.

Both of these are classic soloing pickups.

Never heard either in a V, but I've heard both + the J90C in Soloists and Charvel bolt-ons. The soft bottom would probably only seem softer in a V or other set neck design.

 

[ChurchHill]

May I please use this thread as a good opportunity to ask how you would describe the differences between old early Duncan JB, Custom & Distortion pickups?
I'm in the same boat as ChurchHill, been brainstorming pickup options for a special old 70's model V.
I think I'll keep the neck pickup vintage style (old PAT# / T-Top like), but been thinking about what to put in the bridge especially; looking for a classic hot-rodded PAF vibe to channel my inner late 70's -> 90's Schenker influences

I'd love to hear others' opinions on this, too, mostly because I'm a little outside the norm with JBs and Customs.

I've always found the JB to be too mid-focused for my tastes. I'm not a fan of the Celestion V30s for the same reason. I hear other people sounding great with them, but when I play them, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard. There have been exceptions with the V30s, but I've never found a JB that I've liked. The only one I haven't tried is the Custom Shop Concept set.

Now the odd thing about that is that the Distortion is supposed to be the same wind, just with ceramics instead of A5s. I've tried putting the ceramic from a Distortion into a JB and it did NOT sound the same, to me. I've tried putting the A5 from a JB into the Distortion and that didn't sound the same, either. So, I'm just not buying it, that they're the same, but maybe it was just the set I tried that with. I've also tried an A2 in a JB and it was almost worse. The A5 in the Distortion was better than the JB, but it was a little too soft in the low end, so I prefer the Distortion the way it is stock. Does this mean I won't like the RTM? I don't know, but I'm still interested in it. I think I would because there is another Duncan with A2s that I like.

Which leads me to the Custom Custom. I like it better than the Custom because it's not as sharp in the highs. The Custom is a great pickup in a darker guitar, but none of my Vs are dark. Then there's the Custom 5. Back before that was produced, I put an A5 from the JB I was talking about above into a Custom Custom and it sounded f'ing GREAT. So, cool, I thought, Duncans gonna make these and they'll be great, too. Um, not so fast. I tried one of the production Custom 5 and it was nothing at all like the one I made, it was harsh and scooped where mine was bright and full. So, IDK, not sure I buy that all the Custom variations are the same wind, either. Or maybe Duncan uses Oriented A5 in the new Custom 5s and Unoriented A5 in the JB, or the opposite of that, or different compositions, or what? IDK.

So, for me, the Distortion remains my favorite in darker guitars and the Custom Custom remains my favorite in brighter guitars. My Vs are somewhere between that, bright but not too bright, so the Distortion might be too much and the Custom Custom might not be enough.

FWIW, where I am right now is debating trying a Custombucker with and A4 that I got from Throbak. I was originally experimenting with those for an LP and the stock A3 is a little weak for me (still sounds good, though). Right now, I've got that pickup in an SG and it is just powerful sounding, like exactly what I think I'm looking for with the V. My other thought is the BKP Rebel Yell is possibly the best hot-rodded PAF sounding pickup I've got at the moment, but I like it where it is and don't want to get another set if I can find something new. I've got another set for the SG, and I've got some others in my parts drawer, including a J90C, BKP Abraxas, and a set of Throbak DT-102s that was ear-marked for an ES. Too many options, I know. If I was going to buy something, using a Distortion neck in the bridge, or better, finding an old Seymourizer II, is tempting.

 

[ChurchHill]

@Anje Tell me more about your 70s V... I've got an '81 with the original Dirty Fingers and it's one of my favorite guitars ever.

Here's mine...

 

[Anje]

Thanks a lot for the great input.
Such discussion sharing personal applied examples & learnings really helps giving reference points when trying to “project” a new guitar & rig setup.
Just to make sure I understand the wording correctly: when you (ChurchHill & Uzi) are saying “soft lows”, do you mean “not enough lows” or “lows that are too loose / not tight enough”, or maybe both?

I’ve actually played several guitars with most of those classic pickups over the years, mostly old Charvel, but never really tested all of them in the same guitar to get precise A/B apple to apple pickup comparison; and last time I messed with some of those was at least 10+ years ago.. so I need a refresher.

Few pieces I remember as standouts from back then:
- JB: loved how a particular very early “the JB model” double white sounded in that ‘81 green bengal 1H Charvel I posted in other threads. Felt like a well balanced natural hot rodded paf in that maple neck big rosewood slabboard superstrat. I don’t have it anymore (the guitar nor the pickup), but still have few slightly later early/mid 80’s ones in storage I could pick from.
- Custom: had a great early 80’s strathead HS Charvel/Jackson with one, maple neck big thick rosewood board too, and remember it being “special” and quite hot, but ended replacing it with an old SD I preferred in that guitar at the time. Guitar is gone too but I still have that Custom pickup and a few others early 80’s ones.
- Distortion: it was one of the pickups that came in the Mick Mars / Diglio prepro Charvel, I think it was a more recent 90’s + one; I’ll have to check my notes to be sure if it was in the bridge or neck position. That Charvel was a full solid maple beast and the newer Distortion sounded too brutal to me in there back then, with very little cleanup available; I was really more looking for warmer more open vintage related sounds. But looking back that was totally in the spirit of those XYZ and 90’s Crue records…

Challenge is now to transfer / project that into an old mahogany V.
I have a few more old 80’s Duncan I could choose from besides JB/Custom/Distortion (some Holdsworth, an early « SEY-D »,… as well as 59 and Jazz).
I have some early DiMarzio SD too, but not sure I’d want that double white look in that particular V.
Challenge is I’d still want to keep good dynamics & clean-up using the guitar controls & right hand attack variations, nice open highs clarity, tight lows and overall nice balance that you have in great “vintage” style pickups; a pickup that still let the voice & character of the guitar speak through.

The guitar is out to be worked on, I’ll be able to share more when I get it back
That “The V” looks fantastic! I’ve always been curious about how those compare to the “standard” 70’s all mahogany model. They give me that kind of “Custom V” vibe with the maple top/neck and ebony fretboard; must sound massive with the dual DF setup!

 

[ChurchHill]

I'll let Uzi comment on his take, but when I mention soft lows, I meant not well defined, maybe not flubby, but, well, hazy might be a better word. Not necessarily loose, but nowhere near tight, if that makes sense.

I'd agree that a Distortion wouldn't be my first choice in an all maple guitar. It's a great pickup in its place, but it doesn't work for everything.

Sounds like you've had some amazing guitars!

As for The V, it's surprisingly, to me at least, not that different, although it's been a while since I've play a '70s V. It's got the neck set higher out of the body like some '70s Vs did. From what I've read, it's an alder body, but it looks a lot like maple to me. The top is really just a veneer maybe 1/8" thick, so not as impactful as a full thickness top. It's got the most impressive low-mid growl of anything I've played. Actually, the V Custom has that, too, although not as much. Maybe the ebony board, but I've got an ebony board Explorer and several LPC that don't sound like that at all. And yeah, with the DFs, massive is a good word for it. And it scratched my itch for the double cream look.

 

[ChurchHill]

Here's a couple of new pics... The neck is one of my favorite things about this guitar. Pictures don't do it justice. Just a great shape, too. Not too thick, not too thin, somewhere between a '59 and a Slim Taper.

Here, you can see how the neck is mounted higher off the body than most. It's got M-69 rings on it, or at least whatever version of those Gibson was using back then. These are original and, honestly, I've only taken them off once to check out the DFs and didn't pay attention to the rings.

Here's the back... could be alder, probably is, but it could be maple based more on what it looks like from the inside of the control cavity. And I don't care, anyway, it sounds great!

 

[Anje]

Thanks for sharing the details on the V! Looks fantastic.
For some reason I’ve always supposed those were mahogany bodies

About swapping magnets in pickups and related results VS expectations and theoritical « specs »: I’m sure SD and others have been fine tuning the detailed recipe for each model, way beyond what is simply listed to us. I’m not surprised there is more than meet the eye.

What pot value have you been using with the different models?
I’d expect the original 300k? in most old 70’s / early 80’s V to smooth out the highs.

 

[Uzi Nein Millimetah]

Here's a couple of new pics... The neck is one of my favorite things about this guitar. Pictures don't do it justice. Just a great shape, too. Not too thick, not too thin, somewhere between a '59 and a Slim Taper.

View attachment 437963

Here, you can see how the neck is mounted higher off the body than most. It's got M-69 rings on it, or at least whatever version of those Gibson was using back then. These are original and, honestly, I've only taken them off once to check out the DFs and didn't pay attention to the rings.

View attachment 437964

Here's the back... could be alder, probably is, but it could be maple based more on what it looks like from the inside of the control cavity. And I don't care, anyway, it sounds great!

View attachment 437966

I don't know V history that well, but I know they used mahogany bodies/necks and ebony boards, and had overly thick/round necks for my tastes in the mid '80s (mine was an '85) although manageable.

The best V I've ever played was a ~1990, don't remember if it was a special edition or std production at that time, but it had a much slimmer and better profile neck, just right! Since I unfortunately find most guitars online these days with no test drives, I always keep an eye out for early '90s as I know those work. Hard to guess what kind of neck you'll get over the years with Gibson or ESP.....

I'm really feeling some nostalgia lately for a V with either Dirty Fingers or a 500T/496R set. Damn this site.....

 

[harddriver]

Here's a couple of new pics... The neck is one of my favorite things about this guitar. Pictures don't do it justice. Just a great shape, too. Not too thick, not too thin, somewhere between a '59 and a Slim Taper.

View attachment 437963

Here, you can see how the neck is mounted higher off the body than most. It's got M-69 rings on it, or at least whatever version of those Gibson was using back then. These are original and, honestly, I've only taken them off once to check out the DFs and didn't pay attention to the rings.

View attachment 437964

Here's the back... could be alder, probably is, but it could be maple based more on what it looks like from the inside of the control cavity. And I don't care, anyway, it sounds great!

View attachment 437966

Does that have a three piece maple neck like the Norlin Les Pauls? Looks like flamed maple to my eyes...............That finish is gorgeous

 

[skoora]

My ‘84 is an Alder body. Not sure what the neck is. All I know is it sounds friggin’ fantastic! Glad I didn’t know that when I first saw it, as I might have poo poo’d it as a Gibson, Mahogany body purist back then and kept moving. Also has an amazing neck shape for me. Nice inbetween carve. My 2006 actually has a similar neck shape. Explorers for a long time in the 90’s and onward had too skinny a neck for me. But the V’s were always Ok.
I don’t care for the aesthetic change in V’s in the last several years. Prefer the bigger pick guard of the ‘67 style.

 

[Anje]

Does that have a three piece maple neck like the Norlin Les Pauls? Looks like flamed maple to my eyes...............That finish is gorgeous

yes those The V were 3 piece maple necks.

 

[harddriver]

yes those The V were 3 piece maple necks.

I always thought the V necks were all mahogany. Was it only the Norlin years that the V's were 3 piece maple?

 

[Anje]

Maple necks on Flying V was limited to few specific new models in the 80’s; « The V CMT » is one of them. Until those / the early 80’s all V I know of are the classic all mahogany specs, which starting with the « Medallion » in ´71 as the continuation of the first « reissue » model introduced in the late 60’s.
Those classic V have kept about the same 60’s / early 70’s specs throughout the 70’s until 81-82, like the first reissue Explorer: all mahogany, abr-1 bridge…

Starting in the early/mid 80’s there were several « new » models / evolutions of the Flying V, that got further away from the classic late 60’s / 70’s design: V2, CMT The V… the « standard » V model was reshaped kinda and different woods were experimented… even a 24 fret long scale model later on.

 

[ChurchHill]

Thanks for sharing the details on the V! Looks fantastic.
For some reason I’ve always supposed those were mahogany bodies

About swapping magnets in pickups and related results VS expectations and theoritical « specs »: I’m sure SD and others have been fine tuning the detailed recipe for each model, way beyond what is simply listed to us. I’m not surprised there is more than meet the eye.

What pot value have you been using with the different models?
I’d expect the original 300k? in most old 70’s / early 80’s V to smooth out the highs.

Oh, I'm sure you're right about fine tuning the pickup recipes. Magnet specs, too, I'm sure. For instance, I've tried A2 magnets from probably six or seven sources, all the way from cheap ebay specials to Throbak and there are definitely differences, not to mention different charge levels, etc., and without chemical analysis, who's to say they were all actually A2. Having said that, I do tend to prefer A2, A4, and unoriented A5, not to say that there aren't some ceramics that I like, because there are. And that's where the wind comes in, but all of this ends up being a huge rabbit hole because ing the end, the only thing that matters is that a specific example of a pickup does what I want in a specific guitar.

Anyway, I believe that the pots are 300k in my '80s Vs. They're original and I've never measured them, though. In my V98, I replaced all the electronics with the Burstbuckers that came in a CS LPC and RS 550k pots. I just like the feel and taper of those pots and I'll probably put some in the V Custom, too.

AFAIK, only some of the mid-80s no pickguard Vs, The V, and V2s are not mahogany, with the exception of the original and Korina reissues. Some of the no pickguards are mahogany, though, including the Designer Series, but I think they were all maple necks. V2s are a whole different animal, either maple or walnut.

There's a book called simply "Gibson Flying V" by Zachary Fjested and Larry Meiners that has lots of info, but it looks like it's out of print.

 

[ChurchHill]

I don't know V history that well, but I know they used mahogany bodies/necks and ebony boards, and had overly thick/round necks for my tastes in the mid '80s (mine was an '85) although manageable.

The best V I've ever played was a ~1990, don't remember if it was a special edition or std production at that time, but it had a much slimmer and better profile neck, just right! Since I unfortunately find most guitars online these days with no test drives, I always keep an eye out for early '90s as I know those work. Hard to guess what kind of neck you'll get over the years with Gibson or ESP.....

I'm really feeling some nostalgia lately for a V with either Dirty Fingers or a 500T/496R set. Damn this site.....

Yeah, my '85 neck is a lot like my '81, somewhere between a Thin Taper and a '59.

Those '90s Vs were excellent guitars! I believe they all had Thin Taper necks. My V98 is basically the same guitar with a different pickguard. Until they discontinued that model, it was called the Factor X or some such nonsense, all the white ones had ebony boards, too. Think that started in the mid-80s with the no pickguard models.

The new production models, the '70s and '80s both have the Slim Taper neck.

Dirty Fingers... still remember the first time I played my friend's Scorpions V with them and they are still just as good. I understand the nostalgia and see where it got me??? I know I'm not helping here, but it was worth it.

 

[ChurchHill]

Does that have a three piece maple neck like the Norlin Les Pauls? Looks like flamed maple to my eyes...............That finish is gorgeous

Thanks! Yep, flame maple. Actually, I think it may be five piece. It looks like there's a thin veneer between the 3 main pieces. It's pretty thick to be a glue line, but it's only about 1/32" where on the 5 piece on my '79 25/50 the veneers are about 1/8". I have an '80 ES that is definitely 3 pieces of maple.

 

[ChurchHill]

My ‘84 is an Alder body. Not sure what the neck is. All I know is it sounds friggin’ fantastic! Glad I didn’t know that when I first saw it, as I might have poo poo’d it as a Gibson, Mahogany body purist back then and kept moving. Also has an amazing neck shape for me. Nice inbetween carve. My 2006 actually has a similar neck shape. Explorers for a long time in the 90’s and onward had too skinny a neck for me. But the V’s were always Ok.
I don’t care for the aesthetic change in V’s in the last several years. Prefer the bigger pick guard of the ‘67 style.

I really don't like the messed up pickguards they were using for awhile. Wasn't the same as the '58, just hacked up. I like the bigger '67 pickguards, too. They brought that back with the new '70s V.

 

[ChurchHill]

I always thought the V necks were all mahogany. Was it only the Norlin years that the V's were 3 piece maple?

I think from about '79, before that, I think they were all mahogany or Korina. I think they were still using maple necks on some models, like the XPL, through around '89.

 

[Anje]

The « classic » 70’s specs V design (with all mahogany construction) definitely went through the very early 80’s, I have 81-82 in mind for the last examples; similar timing to the shift in design of the LP Custom when those went back to mahogany neck / lost the volute / added weight relief and the very last years of the Kalamazoo plant.